UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Vympel »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-04-15 09:00am As if Moscow was waiting for Ukraine to give them an excuse to hit a power station, they've been trying that shit since day 1. :kill:
Incorrect. Russia's previous attacks on Ukraine's power system (which were not sustained and only occurred on a limited basis largely late in 2022, not 'from day 1') were on smaller scale targets where the damage was easier to repair due to the nature of what was being destroyed - smaller transformers, etc. Clearly calibrated. Russia now striking power plants directly and on a wide basis - causing damage that will take years to repair - is a clear and obvious escalation since then.
America bitching to Ukraine would be hilarious if it wasn't life-or-death, what are they going to do, stop supplying Ukraine? Oh, wait... :wanker:
Ukraine still benefits from extensive US ISR assets that could be withdrawn at any time. Not that I think the US would use that leverage.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Broomstick »

You clearly haven't met the US "Chaos Caucus" in Congress. There's a small but vocal group in the House who want to completely cut off Ukraine from any aid whatsoever and are one vote away from removing the current Speaker (again!) which would bring all work in that half of Congress to a screeching halt (again!). Their approach to recent world events is that Israel can do no wrong and Ukraine can do no right - so Ukraine should just surrender and Zelenskyy should be in jail or executed. They're the reason that currently planned aid to Ukraine has been delayed for months.

If Trump wins in November that crowd won't be just obstructionists - they'll be in power. Trump has a vendetta towards Zelenskyy for not sucking up to him and failure to provide false evidence against the Biden family. Trump would happily smash the entire nation of Ukraine to destroy just one man.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by aerius »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-04-15 09:00am America bitching to Ukraine would be hilarious if it wasn't life-or-death, what are they going to do, stop supplying Ukraine? Oh, wait... :wanker:
Let me spell this out for you. America doesn't give a fuck about the Ukraine or its people. The only reason they support the Ukraine is because they thought they could use them to cripple Russia, remove them as a rival on the world stage and solidify their own position as the world's only superpower. The Ukraine is simply a tool for the US, and as soon as they're not useful they'll get tossed in the trash like every past US proxy. Ukrainians should've known that but they decided to play the game anyway, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 08:02am
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-04-15 09:00am America bitching to Ukraine would be hilarious if it wasn't life-or-death, what are they going to do, stop supplying Ukraine? Oh, wait... :wanker:
Let me spell this out for you. America doesn't give a fuck about the Ukraine or its people. The only reason they support the Ukraine is because they thought they could use them to cripple Russia, remove them as a rival on the world stage and solidify their own position as the world's only superpower. The Ukraine is simply a tool for the US, and as soon as they're not useful they'll get tossed in the trash like every past US proxy. Ukrainians should've known that but they decided to play the game anyway, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You make it sound like Ukraine actually had a say in the matter of being invaded.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by aerius »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-04-17 08:55amYou make it sound like Ukraine actually had a say in the matter of being invaded.
How about not shelling ethnic Russians the Donetsk region for something like 8 years before the invasion?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Ralin »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 09:19am
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-04-17 08:55amYou make it sound like Ukraine actually had a say in the matter of being invaded.
How about not shelling ethnic Russians the Donetsk region for something like 8 years before the invasion?
And that has what to do with literally anything you ghoulish little shit? Does Putin have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians abroad? Does that apply everywhere or just in countries neighboring Russia?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by aerius »

Ralin wrote: 2024-04-17 09:31amAnd that has what to do with literally anything you ghoulish little shit? Does Putin have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians abroad? Does that apply everywhere or just in countries neighboring Russia?
It's like you don't know and don't want to know anything about the past 100 years or so of history in that region. Ukraine didn't even exist as a country in the early 20th century, when Lenin drew the borders he took a page from the colonialist handbook and put a bunch of Russians in the Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine is historically & ethnically Russian along with being right on the border, what the fuck do you think Russia is gonna do, let them get slaughtered indefinitely?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Ralin »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 09:49am
Ralin wrote: 2024-04-17 09:31amAnd that has what to do with literally anything you ghoulish little shit? Does Putin have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians abroad? Does that apply everywhere or just in countries neighboring Russia?
It's like you don't know and don't want to know anything about the past 100 years or so of history in that region. Ukraine didn't even exist as a country in the early 20th century, when Lenin drew the borders he took a page from the colonialist handbook and put a bunch of Russians in the Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine is historically & ethnically Russian along with being right on the border, what the fuck do you think Russia is gonna do, let them get slaughtered indefinitely?
So to be clear, you are saying that Putin DOES have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians in other countries, at least as long as they're near a border with Russia?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by aerius »

Ralin wrote: 2024-04-17 11:38amSo to be clear, you are saying that Putin DOES have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians in other countries, at least as long as they're near a border with Russia?
I'm saying the Ukrainians shouldn't have been stupid enough to give Putin a reason to correct Lenin's mistakes.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 12:45pm
Ralin wrote: 2024-04-17 11:38amSo to be clear, you are saying that Putin DOES have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians in other countries, at least as long as they're near a border with Russia?
I'm saying the Ukrainians shouldn't have been stupid enough to give Putin a reason to correct Lenin's mistakes.
In other words, you're saying that it's Ukraine fault that Russia invaded them. :roll:
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by vakundok »

As they invaded the area, wouldn't have Russia found and highly publicized the evidence for that genocide if it had happened?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

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aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 08:02amLet me spell this out for you. America doesn't give a fuck about the Ukraine or its people. The only reason they support the Ukraine is because they thought they could use them to cripple Russia, remove them as a rival on the world stage and solidify their own position as the world's only superpower. The Ukraine is simply a tool for the US, and as soon as they're not useful they'll get tossed in the trash like every past US proxy. Ukrainians should've known that but they decided to play the game anyway, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I disagree that the US et al don't care about Ukraine.

A weakened post-conflict Ukraine will require a lot of cash to get running again. Since they're unlikely to see a Marshall Plan, it's up to megacorps to buy up lands, while getting huge concessions from the Ukrainian government. This puts some capital in Ukraine, and a lot in the hands of their shareholders.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by LadyTevar »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 12:45pm
Ralin wrote: 2024-04-17 11:38amSo to be clear, you are saying that Putin DOES have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians in other countries, at least as long as they're near a border with Russia?
I'm saying the Ukrainians shouldn't have been stupid enough to give Putin a reason to correct Lenin's mistakes.
WOW. Just... WOW.
Did you forget this is Russia's SECOND INVASION, as the territory you're talking about, including the Crimean Pensinsula, was ALL part of the United Ukraine before Russia invaded in 2014? And at that time all NATO did was shake its finger and all Ukraine could do was whine, because no one could or would stand up to Putin?

And now here you are fucking BLAMING UKRAINE for being INVADED?!
Go back to your farm and sober up, Aerius, the shit you're smoking is too strong for your brain to handle.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Ralin »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 12:45pm
Ralin wrote: 2024-04-17 11:38amSo to be clear, you are saying that Putin DOES have some sort of special authority over ethnic Russians in other countries, at least as long as they're near a border with Russia?
I'm saying the Ukrainians shouldn't have been stupid enough to give Putin a reason to correct Lenin's mistakes.
Hmm, weird how even Putin didn't mention that as a reason when he was giving his big list of reasons why Ukraine wasn't a real country and should never have existed back at the start of the war. It's almost like you belatedly latched on that as an excuse for why Ukraine deserved to be invaded.

This is especially hilarious coming from Mister lol you expect them to care about war crimes!

So to be clear, what about the treatment of ethnic Russians in Ukraine do you think gave Putin a reason to 'correct Lenin's mistakes' and why? Exactly what do you think those mistakes were? Because it certainly sounds like you're implying the mistake wasn't doing a full genocide against Ukrainians as a culture and political entity then instead of waiting until now.
LadyTevar wrote: 2024-04-17 07:43pm
And now here you are fucking BLAMING UKRAINE for being INVADED?!
Go back to your farm and sober up, Aerius, the shit you're smoking is too strong for your brain to handle.
It's almost like he's a troll who enjoys kramering in and smugging about how much more informed and worldly he is than the rest of us sheeple.

Given that he seems to be implying that Putin is rightfully correcting the mistake of not ethnically cleansing Ukraine sooner I feel like that warrants something harsher than a 'go sober up.'
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by wautd »

aerius wrote: 2024-04-17 09:19am
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-04-17 08:55amYou make it sound like Ukraine actually had a say in the matter of being invaded.
How about not shelling ethnic Russians the Donetsk region for something like 8 years before the invasion?
How about not making fake claims. And even if Ukraine did that, that still doesn't justify Russia shelling people in the Donetsk region
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Gandalf »

wautd wrote: 2024-04-18 02:54am How about not making fake claims.
I wager aerius is referring to the conflict in Donbas, where Ukraine fired rockets into heavily civilian areas.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Gandalf wrote: 2024-04-18 07:33am
wautd wrote: 2024-04-18 02:54am How about not making fake claims.
I wager aerius is referring to the conflict in Donbas, where Ukraine fired rockets into heavily civilian areas.
Was that before or after the "seperationists" in Donbas fired a missile that took out a civilian airplane?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

LadyTevar wrote: 2024-04-18 09:46am
Gandalf wrote: 2024-04-18 07:33am
wautd wrote: 2024-04-18 02:54am How about not making fake claims.
I wager aerius is referring to the conflict in Donbas, where Ukraine fired rockets into heavily civilian areas.
Was that before or after the "seperationists" in Donbas fired a missile that took out a civilian airplane?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Zaune »

The separatist movement in the Donbas region might not have been manufactured out of whole cloth by the KGB Social Media Shit-Stirring Directorate, and the Ukrainian government very probably hasn't always done right by its Russian-speaking citizens, but that sure as hell doesn't justify trying to take the whole damn country.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Zaune wrote: 2024-04-18 11:28am The separatist movement in the Donbas region might not have been manufactured out of whole cloth by the KGB Social Media Shit-Stirring Directorate, and the Ukrainian government very probably hasn't always have done right by its Russian-speaking citizens, but that sure as hell doesn't justify trying to take the whole damn country.
Just like Hitler in 1939 when he invaded Poland. Putin is behaving like the very Nazis he claims to be fighting.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Ralin »

Personally I'd like to hear aerius elaborate on what he thinks Lenin's mistakes that need correcting were. Because it sounds an awful lot like he means not committing more genocide against the Ukrainians sooner.
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Gandalf »

LadyTevar wrote: 2024-04-18 09:46am
Gandalf wrote: 2024-04-18 07:33am
wautd wrote: 2024-04-18 02:54am How about not making fake claims.
I wager aerius is referring to the conflict in Donbas, where Ukraine fired rockets into heavily civilian areas.
Was that before or after the "seperationists" in Donbas fired a missile that took out a civilian airplane?
Concurrently.

Odd to put separationists in quotes. Why is that?
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

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Politico:

Why Ukraine is Headed for Defeat
Just ask a Ukrainian soldier if he still believes the West will stand by Kyiv “for as long as it takes.” That pledge rings hollow when it’s been four weeks since your artillery unit last had a shell to fire, as one serviceman complained from the front lines.

It’s not just that Ukraine’s forces are running out of ammunition. Western delays over sending aid mean the country is dangerously short of something even harder to supply than shells: the fighting spirit required to win.

Morale among troops is grim, ground down by relentless bombardment, a lack of advanced weapons, and losses on the battlefield. In cities hundreds of miles away from the front, the crowds of young men who lined up to join the army in the war’s early months have disappeared. Nowadays, eligible would-be recruits dodge the draft and spend their afternoons in nightclubs instead. Many have left the country altogether.

As I discovered while reporting from Ukraine over the past month, the picture that emerged from dozens of interviews with political leaders, military officers, and ordinary citizens was one of a country slipping towards disaster.

Even as President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says Ukraine is trying to find a way not to retreat, military officers privately accept that more losses are inevitable this summer. The only question is how bad they will be. Vladimir Putin has arguably never been closer to his goal.

“We know people are flagging and we hear it from regional governors and from the people themselves,” Andriy Yermak, Zelenskyy’s powerful chief of staff, told POLITICO. Yermak and his boss travel together to “some of the most dangerous places” to rally citizens and soldiers for the fight, he said. “We tell people: ‘Your name will be in the history books.’”

If the tide doesn’t turn soon in this third year of Russia’s invasion, it will be the nation of Ukraine as it currently exists that is consigned to the past.

For a war of such era-defining importance, the scale of Western leaders’ actions to help Kyiv repel Russia’s invaders has fallen far short of their soaring rhetoric. That disappointment has left Ukrainians of all ranks — from the soldiers digging trenches to ministers running the country — weary and irritable.

When POLITICO asked Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba if he felt the West had left Ukraine to fight with one hand tied behind its back, his verdict was clear: “Yes, I do,” he said, in an interview in his office, an hour after another Russian mid-morning missile attack.

Zelenskyy has laid out the stakes even more starkly, saying Ukraine “will lose the war” if the U.S. Congress does not step up and supply aid.

Increasingly it looks as if Putin’s bet that he can grind down Ukrainian resistance and Western support might pay off.

Without a major step-change in the supply of advanced Western weapons and cash, Ukraine won’t be able to liberate the territories Putin’s forces now hold. That will leave Putin free to gnaw on the wounded country in the months or years ahead. Even if Russia can’t finish Ukraine off, a partial victory will leave Kyiv’s hopes of joining the EU and NATO stuck in limbo.

The ramifications of such an outcome will be serious for the world. Putin will claim victory at home, and, emboldened by exposing Western weaknesses, he may reinvigorate his wider imperial ambitions abroad. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are especially fearful they are next on his hit list. China, already an increasingly reliable partner for Moscow, will see few reasons to alter its stance.

Putin’s big target is Ukraine’s second largest city

Right now, Ukraine’s most urgent need is for artillery shells — millions of them. Moreover, Ukraine says it needs at least two dozen Patriot air-defense systems to protect troops on the front lines and to defend Kharkiv, the country’s biggest city after Kyiv, which has been under ferocious missile and artillery attack for weeks.

Fears are growing that Russia may target Ukraine’s second city for a ground offensive soon.

“It’s symbolic because they say that Kharkiv was the first capital of Ukraine. It’s a big target,” Zelenskyy said in an interview with POLITICO’s parent company Axel Springer media outlets last week.

Ukraine’s military is braced for more losses in the coming months. Oleksandr Syrskyi, commander in chief of the armed forces, has warned that the situation on Ukraine’s eastern front has “significantly deteriorated in recent days.” As Zelenskyy himself put it elsewhere, “We are trying to find some way not to retreat.”

Increasingly it looks as if Putin’s bet that he can grind down Ukrainian resistance and Western support might pay off. | Spencer Platt/Getty Images
The fears about the fragility of the front lines are only compounded by an unprecedented barrage of Russian attacks intended to knock out Ukraine’s electricity networks.

In recent meetings with POLITICO, the country’s political leaders acknowledged that public spirits are sagging, and although they all tried to stay upbeat, frustration with the West came through in every conversation.

“Give us the damn Patriots,” snapped Kuleba, Ukraine’s chief diplomat. Sitting for an interview in the foreign ministry, he couldn’t hide his exasperation with the delays, and the strings that come attached to Western weaponry — like not striking Russian oil facilities.

Kuleba, of course, offered his unconditional gratitude for all the support that has come from the Western allies over the past two years. But he warned that Ukraine is trapped in a vicious cycle: The weapons it needs are withheld or delayed; then Western allies complain that Kyiv is on the retreat, making it less likely they’ll send more aid in future. (Since POLITICO’s meeting with Kuleba, Germany has agreed to supply Patriots, but the question still remains whether they will prove sufficient.)

The mood in the senior ranks of the military is even darker than Kuleba’s.

Several senior officers talked to POLITICO only on the understanding they would not be named so they could talk freely. They painted a grim forecast of frontlines potentially collapsing this summer when Russia, with greater weight of numbers and a readiness to accept huge casualties, launches its expected offensive. Perhaps worse, they expressed private fears that Ukraine’s own resolve could be weakened, with morale in the armed forces undermined by a desperate shortage of supplies.

As Volodymyr Zelenskyy himself put it elsewhere, “We are trying to find some way not to retreat.” | Drew Angerer/Getty Images
Ukrainian commanders are crying out for more combat soldiers — one estimate from the former top commander, Valeriy Zaluzhny suggested they’d need an extra 500,000 troops.

But Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian parliament are hesitant about ordering a massive fresh call-up. In an interview with POLITICO, Yermak, the powerful Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, offered an important — and to outsiders perhaps surprising — reason for not launching a mass mobilization: such a call-up wouldn’t have the backing of the people. Zelenskyy is still “president of the people,” he said. “For him, that’s very important, and it’s very important that the people do something not just because they’re ordered to do it.”

And there’s the rub. The West has failed to come up with what’s needed, and it in turn is undermining Ukraine’s will to do what it takes.

The country is facing an existential crisis — Putin literally wants to scratch it from the map — and yet there apparently isn’t enough public support for a new draft.

Young Ukrainians are dodging the military draft

Admittedly, Ukraine is no different from its neighboring European countries where recent opinion polls suggest large numbers would refuse to be conscripted even if their nations were under attack. But Ukraine is the country at war. An existential fight like this can’t be won without mobilizing the entire nation.

And yet, as the conflict continues, Ukrainians living in Kyiv and the center and west of the country — away from the front lines — appear in some ways to be ready to put up with war raging in the east, as long as they can get back to their normal lives.

Hence, there is draft-dodging: eligible young recruits find other things to do with their time, packing into hipster bars and techno clubs in the late afternoons.

Vitali Klitschko, the former heavyweight boxing champion now serving as Kyiv’s mayor, said he understood why people wanted to get back to normal, arguing that it is healthy. He told POLITICO the desire to resume daily activities was an expression of defiance in the face of Putin’s attempts to wear the people down.

Maybe so. But faced with a relentless enemy, driving home its advantage against a badly equipped army of defenders, such a hands-off attitude seems high risk.

As Ukraine’s ousted chief commander Zaluzhny found to his cost, rational warnings that things may not turn out well can get commentators and analysts in trouble. But suspending critical thinking won’t win this war either.

The West has placed too much faith in sanctions, believing they’d bring Russia to heel. There’s also beenwishful thinking about Russians turning on Putin over casualty figures, or hopes he may be ousted in a Kremlin coup. Instead Russia’s economy has remained resilient and Putin has strengthened his grip on power.

It’s true that before launching the 2022 invasion, the Russian leader may have been misled by his bungling intelligence chiefs into believing a short war would offer a quick win.

But Putin can afford to wait. Last month he awarded himself another six-year term as president. He can settle for a stalemate: Keeping Ukraine stuck between victory and defeat, shut out of both NATO and the EU, would still amount to a win.

And what would a deadlocked conflict do to Ukrainian resilience?

The early burst of patriotic fervor which saw draft centers swamped with volunteers has evaporated. An estimated 650,000 men of fighting age have fled their country, most by smuggling themselves across the border.

Two years ago, the trains heading out of Ukraine were almost exclusively carrying women, children and the elderly to seek refuge. This week, around a third of the passengers on one train carrying this correspondent out of the country were men of fighting age. Somehow they’d managed to get waiver papers to leave.

In Zelenskyy’s presidential office in Bankova Street, his officials insist they are still positive. But that Western aid, especially President Joe Biden’s long-delayed $60 billion package of support, can’t wait much longer.

What would Putin do if Ukraine doesn’t get the Western help it needs to win? “He would completely destroy everything. Everything,” Zelenskyy told Axel Springer media. Ukrainian cities will be reduced to rubble; hundreds of thousands will die, he said.

“People will not run away, most of them, and so he will kill a lot of people. So how it will look like? A lot of blood.”
Commentary:

1. The line about young men spending time in nightclubs instead of at the front is a product of Ukrainian state propaganda against their own people. Its just horseshit.

2. The line about Zelensky being reluctant to order a mobilisation because he is a 'servant of the people' is just credulous stenography. Come the fuck on.

3. For the umpteenth time: the Ukrainian counteroffensive was comprehensively defeated by the Russians when Ukraine aid was at its height. The idea that aid is crucial to Ukraine 'victory' is plainly false, particularly when even the current stalled package of $60B is transparently less than what Ukraine has already received.

There is no credible / sustainable amount of Western aid in existence that would allow Ukraine to "liberate the territories Putin's forces now hold". The high water mark of Ukraine's fortunes was last year, pre-Bakhmut. That time is never going to come again.

There simply are not "millions" of artillery shells in existence anywhere (except in countries which are not going to just hand that over to Ukraine - unless its Russia firing them at Ukrainian forces). Similarly, the demand for two dozen Patriot systems to defend Ukraine is utterly delusional. No country is going to denude its own defences to hand over that many, and even if they did, the rate of expenditure of SAMs for that many would be even more unsustainable than it already is. The western MIC and their war stocks simply did not contemplate - and transparently cannot cope - with a war of this nature, size and scope on short notice. Rectifying this will take years and there's precious little indication of any willingness to make the changes required.

That said, the argument that delays in aid are harming Ukrainian fighting spirit make sense. But even the stalled levels of aid are merely delaying defeat, not leading to victory.
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Solauren
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Solauren »

Ralin wrote: 2024-04-18 01:20pm Personally I'd like to hear aerius elaborate on what he thinks Lenin's mistakes that need correcting were. Because it sounds an awful lot like he means not committing more genocide against the Ukrainians sooner.
I'm willing to give Aerius the benefit of the doubt and assume he was speaking of Putins point of view, instead of his own.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Ralin
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Re: UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

Post by Ralin »

Solauren wrote: 2024-04-18 10:09pm
Ralin wrote: 2024-04-18 01:20pm Personally I'd like to hear aerius elaborate on what he thinks Lenin's mistakes that need correcting were. Because it sounds an awful lot like he means not committing more genocide against the Ukrainians sooner.
I'm willing to give Aerius the benefit of the doubt and assume he was speaking of Putins point of view, instead of his own.
Given some of the other shit Mister lol you're mad about war crimes has said here I'm not so much
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