THE OotS Thread, Part V

[LadyTevar]

My bet is a Tunnel Worm variant, or a Psurlon.

That's provided it's a psionic creature. After all, we've seen that eye effect from spells to. (i.e Xylon to the MITD when he commanded him to be prepared to eat Redcloak on command).

I could produce a list of monsters that can use Dominate Monster if you want

We'll see if the next two pages show what it is or not.

[Bedlam]

A dragon also seems anti climatic really it doesn't even look all that big to me.

Not all that powerful a magic circle to keep it in either if it could just cast dominate monster or similar across it.

[Crazedwraith]

A dragon in a dungeon? Who'd a think it?

[Rogue 9]

So since we're already talking about it, link.

[AniThyng]

So since we're already talking about it, link.

Is it chaotic evil to imprison a (usually) CE red dragon? Hm

[LadyTevar]

So since we're already talking about it, link.

Is it chaotic evil to imprison a (usually) CE red dragon? Hm

TBH? No, probably saved a lot of people from a lot of damage. But this is going to be a fun fight.

[Solauren]

I'm thinking that the creatures that gain power as they age (i.e Dragons, vampires, other types of undead if exposed to the right energies), that are confined down there, are under a variant of sleep, so they will continue to age, but that wakes them up if anyone comes with a minimum distance.

Possibly with other features, like telepathic illusions or forced astral projection that makes them develop their powers, something like a ring of sustenance to keep them from starving, and probably something that prevents muscle entropy. Not like I've considered that for dungeons I've created over the years.....

For all we know, that poor dragon was living in an illusion where it ruled it's own kingdom, and part of the reason it's annoyed is it just found out that was a lie.....
'Course it's a red dragon so....

Now, the question is - Why not use magical alignment changes on some of the more dangerous creatures? Alignment shift the Red Dragon to NG or CG, and then use it's now horrified state to convince it to guard the gate to atone for it's actions.....

[Ralin]

So I expect that Sereni isn't going to survive this fight. Racheting up the tension by leaving the Order in the middle of the super dungeon without the person who designed it is just too obvious of an escalation, plus she has her own past issues to get comeuppance for.

[AniThyng]

I'm thinking that the creatures that gain power as they age (i.e Dragons, vampires, other types of undead if exposed to the right energies), that are confined down there, are under a variant of sleep, so they will continue to age, but that wakes them up if anyone comes with a minimum distance.

Possibly with other features, like telepathic illusions or forced astral projection that makes them develop their powers, something like a ring of sustenance to keep them from starving, and probably something that prevents muscle entropy. Not like I've considered that for dungeons I've created over the years.....

For all we know, that poor dragon was living in an illusion where it ruled it's own kingdom, and part of the reason it's annoyed is it just found out that was a lie.....
'Course it's a red dragon so....

Now, the question is - Why not use magical alignment changes on some of the more dangerous creatures? Alignment shift the Red Dragon to NG or CG, and then use it's now horrified state to convince it to guard the gate to atone for it's actions.....

A forced alignment shift even to good seems rather evil to me...

[LadyTevar]

Since he was talking before they got to him, I'm thinking this dragon was imprisoned before Serena started putting them in Suspended Animation. He's been trapped in that circle, aware the whole time, and only Sonny's anti-magic eye let him get out of the circle and whatever it did to keep him from harming Serena or the Dungeon.

[LaCroix]

Wondering...

A beholders antimagic cone has 150 feet range.
Dominate Monster only has 60 feet.

What did the red dragon use to get Sunny from across the bridge?

edit.
There is Mind control, but that also has just 100 feet range...

[Ralin]

Old red dragons have Suggestion as as a spell like ability. Though that is close range spell

[Crazedwraith]

Sunny had his contact in at the time he was controlled. So his antimagic was a none-issue regardless of range.

[Solauren]

A forced alignment shift even to good seems rather evil to me...

What is the will of one CE Dragon compared to the lives of millions upon millions of sentients?

Also, the rules and forces of law, good, evil, chaos, etc seem to disagree with you to an extent.

Compel - Enchantment (Compulsion)[Mind-Affecting] - Perm alignment save, Will Save, SR Negates. You choose the alignment (Shaman 8, Ancestor Domain . Note that it doesn't have an alignment descriptor
Source - Oriental Adventures

Mindrape - Enchantment [Evil, Mind-Affecting]
Same idea, longer ranged, Sor/Wizard 9
Source: Book of Vile Darkness

Sanctify the Wicked Necromancy [Good]. Santified 9, Sacrifice of 1 level by caster
Target: One Evil Creature.
Over the course of the year, trapped in a gem, they're turned good.
They also get a template and powers.
Source: BOOK OF EXALTED DEEDS
(I'd argue the Sacrifice of the level by the caster is for the Template it grants, and doing it without the sacrifice would still result in the alignment shift, and probably a shorter time in the gem)

Morality Undone (Bard 5, Cleric 5) is Evil (Fiendish Codex 1), only lasts 10 min/level.


There might be others from WOTC, but I can't find any of them at the moment.

[Ralin]

If outright mind control magic and imprisonment aren't inherently aligned I see no reason why alignment changing magic should be.

Which is separate from whether forced alignment change magic should exist. Should certainly be a bigger deal than the DC 15 Will save the Helmet of Opposite Alignment gives.

[Solauren]

If outright mind control magic and imprisonment aren't inherently aligned I see no reason why alignment changing magic should be.

Which is separate from whether forced alignment change magic should exist. Should certainly be a bigger deal than the DC 15 Will save the Helmet of Opposite Alignment gives.

Well, the H.O.A is a cursed item, despite the fact I've had characters find one and go 'Oh goodie!' and proceed to use it on captured evil prisoners, so it's supposed to have a low save. It's not 'intentional'

I would think a deliberately made 'Ralin's helm of opposite alignment' would have a much higher saving throw.

[AniThyng]

Well I'm asking not based on mechanics but the principal of the thing...

From a role play perspective what is it like to be evil and have such a thing happen? Is it like having an epiphany? Is it a lead it to the follow up horror ptsd of knowing you can't undo being an evil prior ?

I think we can agree using such a helm on a good align is probably evil in of itself

[Ralin]

If outright mind control magic and imprisonment aren't inherently aligned I see no reason why alignment changing magic should be.

Which is separate from whether forced alignment change magic should exist. Should certainly be a bigger deal than the DC 15 Will save the Helmet of Opposite Alignment gives.

Well, the H.O.A is a cursed item, despite the fact I've had characters find one and go 'Oh goodie!' and proceed to use it on captured evil prisoners, so it's supposed to have a low save. It's not 'intentional'

I would think a deliberately made 'Ralin's helm of opposite alignment' would have a much higher saving throw.

Well what I'm getting at is more that it's kind of a joke item from early editions same as the girdle of reverse gender or whatever, and I think magic that rewrites someone's mind/soul/personality like that should be be a Big Deal and included in a setting deliberately with thought to how it fits.

Well I'm asking not based on mechanics but the principal of the thing...

From a role play perspective what is it like to be evil and have such a thing happen? Is it like having an epiphany? Is it a lead it to the follow up horror ptsd of knowing you can't undo being an evil prior ?

Hard to imagine. But I don't think Good as a cosmological force or the celestials that embody it are too concerned with everyone having a free choice to be evil. Anymore than, say, anarchists in real life would peacefully respect your freedom to be a fascist. Like if solars don't go around bathing the world in Turn Good radiation it should be because they can't without serious negative consequences, not because they don't want to.

[Solauren]

So, you want Solars of each good alignment going around turning everyone to their alignment?
There are three good alignments, and people flipping all the time is probably bad for their health.

Also, eventually, you'll have LG and CG fighting, with NG split.

While Evil laughs at them.

Nope, let the mortals do it. That way, if they screw up, hey, 'free will'.

[Ralin]

So, you want Solars of each good alignment going around turning everyone to their alignment?
There are three good alignments, and people flipping all the time is probably bad for their health.

Also, eventually, you'll have LG and CG fighting, with NG split.

While Evil laughs at them.

Nope, let the mortals do it. That way, if they screw up, hey, 'free will'.

No. I want there to be strong practical reasons like that for why they don't do it if it's even possible. Not because they have some deep set desire to win mortal souls from the lower planes fairly.

[Solauren]

No. I want there to be strong practical reasons like that for why they don't do it if it's even possible. Not because they have some deep set desire to win mortal souls from the lower planes fairly.

Have you read the opening blurbs from the two Fiendish Codex's?

Fiendish Codex II heavily implies the reason is laws the gods put in place to prevent demonic incursions, and later deals they made that resulted in Asmodues becoming the Ruler of Baator.

[Solauren]

I'm posting the text from 'Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells', Copyright Wizards of the Coast (2005 I believe) (Page 4, Page 5).

It's entirely fiction, no rules, but it illustrates the mindset of the Gods, and Devils.

However, if you take it as 'mostly canon', within D&D, well... you'll we....
Spoiler

Preface: The Pact Primeval

The best way to understand devils and their ways is to listen to the stories they tell about themselves. The most famous of these tales have propagated as myths throughout all the worlds of the Material Plane, becoming familiar to mortals of all sorts. But as is often the case with legends, contradictions abound. For example, the tale of the Pact Primeval is the accepted version of the multiverse’s creation. But an alternate story claims Asmodeus as the fallen creator of the universe.

Countless cultures have their own versions of the Pact Primeval legend. The names of the deities featured in it change depending on where it is told, but the names of the devils are always the same. Perhaps this fact is what inspired Philogestes, the accursed philosopher of evil, to pen his famous proverb: “The gods exist in multiplicity, but Asmodeus is unique.”

As is the case with any myth worthy of the name, the following tale is true—whether or not it actually happened.

In the beginning—and even before—chaos was all that existed. Out of it came demons—the living manifestations of chaos. Time had not yet been invented, so the demons fought each other continuously in a vortex of disorder over an immeasurable period.

A state of raw chaos was intolerable to the universe, so a force arose to combat it—the power of law. From this principle of abstract order, a number of beings coalesced to combat the demons.

These new deities of law suited themselves in gleaming armor made of pure stability and took up weapons forged of ideal thought. Then they waded into battle against the demons. After the battle had raged for uncounted eons, the law deities felt the need to track their progress. They created numbers, to record the enemies slain, and time, so they could see how long victory would take.

Gradually, however, the deities of law began to suspect that the supply of demons was infinite. Weary of battle, they wished to move on to other projects, such as the creation of worlds and intelligent beings. So they made beautiful winged warriors to serve them and wield their divine magic, both in the endless war against the demons and in the worlds yet to be created. These beings, glorious in their diversity, were called angels.

The bravest, toughest, fiercest, and most beautiful of the angels was Asmodeus. He slew more demons than any other of his kind—more even than any deity. But as the eons wore on, Asmodeus and the members of his magnificent and terrible company began to take on some of their enemies’ traits, so as to fight them more effectively. Gradually, their beauty turned to ugliness, and the deities and other angels began to fear them. Eventually, the inhabitants of the celestial realms petitioned the great gods to banish Asmodeus and the most fearsome of his avenging angels. So Asmodeus was put on trial before Heironeous, the god of valor.

The darkest of the angels responded readily to the charges, reading from the great tablets of law that he had helped to carve. “The first duty of law is to destroy chaos,” he argued. “I have performed this duty better than any.”

“You have made war, and made it well,” Heironeous agreed. “Yet you and your company have poisoned yourselves in the process. Can you not go elsewhere, lest we become contaminated too?”

Asmodeus smiled, and the smoke of a thousand battlefields rose from his lips. “As Lord of Battle,” he pointed out, “you should know better than any that war is a dirty business. We have blackened ourselves so that you can remain golden. We have upheld the laws, not broken them. Therefore, you may not cast us out.”

The gods huddled together to discuss what they had heard. Great was their consternation when they could find no counters in their tablets of law to Asmodeus’s arguments. The dark angel knew the laws better than they did and could wield their clauses like a knife.

With the passage of time, Asmodeus and his warband grew ever more alarming in aspect. Fangs jutted from their mouths, their tongues grew forked, and they wreathed their bodies in mantles of fire. The deities built new citadels to escape them, but Asmodeus and his followers penetrated these as well. They sued the gods under their own laws, demanding full access to all the privileges accorded champions of order. The deities were distressed but could fi nd no lawful way to stop them.

So the gods retreated to their great project—the creation of mortals, and of verdant worlds for those favored beings to live on. But when demons invaded these worlds, the warbands of Asmodeus were called upon to stop them. Although the voracious hosts of the tanar’ri were no easier to vanquish on the new worlds of the Material Plane than they had been on the battlegrounds of the Outer Planes, Asmodeus and his dark angels generally succeeded in driving them back. Together, the gods and angels created barriers on the Material Plane to keep the demons at bay. They erected walls, threw up ranges of mountains, covered portions of their worlds with icy wastes, and buried the entrances the demons had used under vast oceans. Thus were the newly created worlds, like Asmodeus and his lot, scarred and made ugly for the greater benefit of law.

Then the deities of order made a horrifying discovery. The mortals they had created—their pride and joy—immediately set to work tearing down these barriers. They scaled walls, climbed mountains, and traversed glaciers to let the demons back in. Upon returning to the Material Plane, the demons ran riot, destroying one earthly paradise after another.
The deities were angry but also confused. “Why did my sweet halfl ings do this to me?” cried Yondalla, who had created them.
“I invented mountains and set my clever dwarves as their protectors!” thundered Moradin. “Why did they tunnel under them and into the demon crypts?”
The gods wailed and lamented until Asmodeus came to them with the answer. “Your mortals are taking these actions because you gave them minds of their own.”

“Of course we did!” said the deities. “Without free will, the choice to follow the law means nothing.”
“Indeed,” replied Asmodeus, crushing a small insect that had crawled out of his neatly trimmed red beard. “They are curious creatures, these mortals, and the demons have promised them freedom. Soon they will learn that the liberty dangled before them is that of absolute anarchy, and that in a demon realm, they are free only to be destroyed. But by then, it will be too late for them. You might create more worlds and more mortals to people them, but I promise you, the same folly will recur eternally.”
When the gods realized the truth of the dark angel’s words, they were downcast. They rent their garments and wailed in despair.

“I have the solution that eludes you,” said Asmodeus, “one that will allow your precious mortals to retain the free will you have so benefi cently given them. The problem is this,” he continued. “Your law is one of voluntary obedience. You command the mortals to abjure chaos, but what happens when they disobey you?”

The deities had no answer. “We are their creators,” moaned Yondalla. “Of course they should heed us.”
“Indeed they should,” replied Asmodeus, bowing gallantly to the fair Yondalla. “But they do not, because there can be no law without Punishment.”

“Punishment?” muttered the host of deities and godlings. “What is this Punishment of which you speak?”

Asmodeus pulled it from its sheath. At this time, Punishment was shaped like a mighty sword, though it has taken on many forms since then. “I have invented this item for you as the ultimate weapon of law. When laws are broken, the wrongdoers must be made to suffer as a warning to others. Thus, mortals can choose between the paradise of rightful action and the torment of wickedness. A few will suffer Punishment so that the majority can see the consequences of lawbreaking.”

The gods were disquieted by this pronouncement, but as usual, they could find no flaws in their champion’s logic. How could mortals be expected to choose virtue if evil went unpunished?

At last, one of the godlings stepped forward and said, “Yes, retribution is the basis of all law.” These words transformed him on the spot into the greater deity now known as St. Cuthbert.

On that day, the deities began to see that law and chaos were not the only principles in the universe. Good and evil were natural forces in the cosmos as well. So the gods separated themselves from one other on that basis. Deities such as Hecate and Set offered patronage to Asmodeus’s poisoned angels, while Heironeous and some of the others drew back from them still more.

So the deities handed down their new laws and sent their clerics through mortal lands to announce that the punishment for sin would be torment. The gods were pleased with the arrangement. They truly thought that everyone would obey and that no one would actually be punished.

But as mortals died, some souls trickled into the celestial planes who bore the stink of transgression. Asmodeus, aided by Dispater, Mephistopheles, and others of his dark brigade, set about their lawful punishment. They fl ayed these sinners, and burned them, and placed them on racks. The shrieks of the damned reverberated throughout the heavens, and the fl owers in the gods’ idyllic gardens dripped with blood. The deities of law tried to shut their ears, but they could not abide the horror. So they put Asmodeus in chains and again charged him with high crimes against them.

“I have merely done what I said I would, under the laws you drafted,” said Asmodeus. Again, the gods had to admit he was right.

“But I have a proposal for you,” the grim champion continued. “You wish to see the law upheld, but you do not care to witness its ranker consequences. So to preserve your delicate sensibilities, my followers and I will take our project elsewhere. We will build a perfect Hell for you. You will gain from its existence but need never lay eyes upon it. We shall put it . . . there.” And he pointed to an empty land, which is now called Baator.

“Yes, yes!” said all the deities. “You must move your Hell there, forthwith!”

“Nothing would please me more,” said Asmodeus. He extended his hand, and a ruby rod of power appeared in it. “But fi rst, we must make a pact.”

“A pact?” asked Moradin suspiciously.

“Yes, indeed,” said Asmodeus, producing a document with a wave of his hand. “It is to your benefit to ensure that we, who labor for you in a place you will not venture, continue to carry out your will. This agreement specifies the fate of damned souls. In exchange, it allows us to draw magic from these souls, so we can fuel our spells and maintain our powers.”

“I’m not sure I like the sound of that,” said the flinty Moradin.

“Your concerns are entirely understandable, O Maker of Dwarves,” said Asmodeus in his most reassuring tone. “But since we will be separated from you, we will not be able to draw our powers from you, as we always have. You would not wish to make us gods independent of yourselves, would you?”
“Assuredly not!” huffed Moradin, appalled at the thought.

“So instead, take this lesser measure, and simply sign this pact,” he said with a smile. Thus, the law deities signed the agreement that determined the boundaries of Hell and the rules for the transmission of wicked souls. Today, mortals know this document as the Pact Primeval.

Once it was signed, Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Dispater decamped to Baator, which was then a bleak and featureless plain. With them went a host of other dark angels that called themselves erinyes.
“What have you gotten us into?” Mephistopheles moaned.
“This place has nothing!” Dispater complained.
“Just wait,” said Asmodeus. Then he explained his plan.
The deities of virtuous law reveled in their newly purified celestial domains, now free of the cruel angels’ degradation for the first time. It was not for many years, in mortal terms, that they discovered an alarming drop in the number of souls being transmitted to their various heavens. Upon conferring with their clergy, they realized that devils were corrupting mortals and ensuring their damnation by turning them toward evil.

The deities formed a delegation, which set off immediately for Baator. To their surprise, the once-featureless plain had been transformed into nine tiers of monstrous horror and torment. Within its confi nes, they found countless souls writhing in pain. They saw these souls transformed, first into crawling, mindless monsters, and eventually into an army of powerful devils.
“What goes on here?” Heironeous demanded.

“You have granted us the power to harvest souls,” replied Asmodeus. “To build our Hell and gird our might for the task set before us, we naturally had to find ways to improve our yield.”
The war deity drew forth his longsword of crackling lightning. “It is your job to punish transgressions, not to encourage them!” he cried.

Asmodeus smiled, and a venomous moth fl ew out from between his sharpened teeth. “Read the fine print,” he replied.

In short, the deities were created by the primal forces of 'law and order', and are, at their heart, beings of law.

As such, their own law of 'mortals must have free will' is what prevents them from just doing mass alignment conversions.

Devils are able to do it, because they have legal permission to covert sentient beings (the fine print).
Demons just don't care.

So instead their efforts are focused on prevention of conversion to evil, instead of forcing conversion to good.

The few spells that do cause forced alignment changes are mortal in nature, can be resisted by mortals, and difficult to cast.

[Rogue 9]

1296 is up.

[LadyTevar]

1296 is up.

Yep, never call your own Rogue's bluff, dammit.

[Rogue 9]

1296 is up.

Yep, never call your own Rogue's bluff, dammit.

Elan is dumb as a brick. That's been his defining character trait for the last 1200 some odd strips.