Avatar: Way Of Water *spoilers*

[Shroom Man 777]

You know what, in retrospect and upon reflection and chatting with Crazedwraith, I realized that it's fine. I'm glad people here of all places aren't pissed that the space native people won against the Americans and driven them off or whining that the Americans should've won (by committing orbital genocide), I'm glad that they're pissed because beyond the events in the movie off-screen there are still Americans involved and ideally they should also be driven off of our planet. In that respect, how times have changed and I'm legit glad that the values have progressed and I hope after the last movie Cameron also commits seppuku with a frisbee gets glass canopied in a VTOL. Like, unironically, it's totally fine. Just like how I can consider Raya as alright when yeah many wouldn't even bother with it (but yeah Disney should stop trying so hard to be Ghibli by avoiding central villains and making reconciliation be the main objective and just go back to having Gaston fuckfaces as bad guys).

[ray245]

Is it a hanging offense, or not?

My line of inquiry is how severe is it? Hence the various comparisons because on one hand I think this is being taken out of proportion, but on the other hand I do believe representation matters. So there's grades of severity here. Like, Airbender and Korra and Kung Fu Panda could have these faults too, yet we can all point out said faults without regarding them on the same severity as Christopher Lee as Fu Manchu.

Using the past as an example isn't a good idea, because that just feel "it was worse in the past!". I don't think severity should be taken into consideration at all with such issues.

It diminishes the issues people are trying to raise.

[Vympel]

Movie fucking ruled, King Jim doesn't miss. Easily my top movie of 2022 (I saw it in December).

And having gone to all the trouble of resurrecting Quaritch they of course don't kill him again. So really the whole film is pretty much awash plotwise and just for sceptical. (There is also the ongoing mystery of the not-Grace daughter for the sequels as well as she seems super connected to Eywa)

Well yeah, Quaritch now has his whole estranged father deal with Spider going on, which ties into Spider's relationship with the Sully clan, especially after what happened with Netyiri at the end (who has never accepted him). Quaritch redemption arc is coming, baby.

[Shroom Man 777]

Using the past as an example isn't a good idea, because that just feel "it was worse in the past!".

I'm using Airbender and Korra as comparisons because they're relatively recent (they intersect each other in timeline), I'm picking them precisely because I don't want to compare with something from a long time ago where yellowface was a thing. I guess Dr. Strange and the Ghost in the Shell movie are also recent examples, though they differ in that those were actual Asian pre-existing roles in the comics/animes that got cast as white people, compared to Airbender and Korra which aren't pre-existing roles but fictitious Asian-coded human world, compared to Cameron Avatar's fictitious generic-native-coded aliens from another planet.

I don't think severity should be taken into consideration at all with such issues.

It diminishes the issues people are trying to raise.

Issues have nuances and part of tackling issues is exploring them? So they can't be generalized, any flaws in say Kung Fu Panda* aren't the same as Ghost in the Shell aren't the same as Airbender/Korra aren't the same as Cameron Avatar.

Like I bring up my Lindsay Ellis example because she was tarred as a racist or some shit for expressing the opinion of "Earlier Asian-themed elemental nations clash and unifying hero with barely any Asian voice actors (Airbender/Korra) was actually better made than recent similar work with Asian voice actors (Raya)" which ironically was something also expressed by practically every Filipino who had Nickelodeon. Another nuance in that issue would be that mainland Asians would regard Raya differently than diaspora Asians (similar Crazy Rich Asians which for diaspora Asians is a mega win for Hollywood representation [that I believe still matters] but for mainland Asians with their own home-grown shows and flicks covering the same subjects it wasn't such a Big Deal).

*Kung Fu Panda's first installment came out one year before Cameron Avatar but it's an ongoing series with several installments including one coming out next year.

[ray245]

I'm using Airbender and Korra as comparisons because they're relatively recent (they intersect each other in timeline), I'm picking them precisely because I don't want to compare with something from a long time ago where yellowface was a thing. I guess Dr. Strange and the Ghost in the Shell movie are also recent examples, though they differ in that those were actual Asian pre-existing roles in the comics/animes that got cast as white people, compared to Airbender and Korra which aren't pre-existing roles but fictitious Asian-coded human world, compared to Cameron Avatar's fictitious generic-native-coded aliens from another planet.

And now for the upcoming Avatar animated shows they already said they are recasting roles for Asian and native American VAs.

And Avatar 2 exist in 2022, no longer in 2009 anymore.

Issues have nuances and part of tackling issues is exploring them? So they can't be generalized, any flaws in say Kung Fu Panda* aren't the same as Ghost in the Shell aren't the same as Airbender/Korra aren't the same as Cameron Avatar.

I would say they are all part of the same thing, pop media. Just like how people criticise Disney cartoons from the 30s and 40s as much as they criticise big life-action movies from that era.

[Shroom Man 777]

And now for the upcoming Avatar animated shows they already said they are recasting roles for Asian and native American VAs.

And Avatar 2 exist in 2022, no longer in 2009 anymore.

Just like how Avatar 2 casted roles for POC. Ironically, the first movie lacked the heinous offense that is casting Kate Winslet in her role lol so is it less-flawed in that respect?

Anyway, I picked them (Cameron Avatar, Airbender, Kung Fu Panda, the Ghost in the Shell remake) cause they're recent-ish and sort of contemporaries, and hypothetically if Raya and Airbender or Korra were released at the same time, we could acknowledge Airbender/Korra's flaws WRT casting but nonetheless say they're better than Raya despite Raya being better in that issue.

I would say they are all part of the same thing, pop media. Just like how people criticise Disney cartoons from the 30s and 40s as much as they criticise big life-action movies from that era.

Yes that's true, but there are different degrees or grades of problematic-ness. Say, yellowface is bad* (Fu Manchu movies), non-yellowface Asian roles even in typecast archetypes is less bad and counts as an improvement but still needs to be improved upon (cheesy kung fu flicks), and then Asian generalization glossing over regional identities is not ideal but it's still an improvement of Asians being only Kung Fu Masters (Raya), etc.

(Your head would explode at how yellowface actually exists in Philippine media, like in the 90s we had this movie about a Filipino-Chinese clan and the actors and actresses had their eyes taped to be more narrow lol and some of them were actually Filipino-Chinese)

So going back to my jokes this means in terms of flaws of representing minorities:

Fu Manchu Yellowface Christopher Lee is the Imperial Star Destroyer gigaton turbolaser yield equivalent >>>> Green Hornet is like an Enterprise-D or something with multi-megaton phasers >>>>> Raya is an Expanse Rocinante or Donnager type hard scifi vessel that's sublight, restricted in Gs, with kiloton-yield weapons at most. Airbender/Raya has respectful portrayals so it is similarly "hard-sci-fi" yield as Raya but since it has the flaw of not having much Asians then I guess this means they have FTL so... Babylon 5 or NBSG? Or just Firefly-level quasi-FTL?

Hmmm the first Avatar in 2009 lacked the great obvious moral affront of the Kate Winslet role so does this mean the first Avatar is less-bad than Avatar 2? So Avatar 2 actually "increased in yield" compared to the first movie?

[ray245]

Just like how Avatar 2 casted roles for POC. Ironically, the first movie lacked the heinous offense that is casting Kate Winslet in her role lol so is it less-flawed in that respect?

Anyway, I picked them (Cameron Avatar, Airbender, Kung Fu Panda, the Ghost in the Shell remake) cause they're recent-ish and sort of contemporaries, and hypothetically if Raya and Airbender or Korra were released at the same time, we could acknowledge Airbender/Korra's flaws WRT casting but nonetheless say they're better than Raya despite Raya being better in that issue.

Just because it has done something right doesn't lessen the problems in anyway.

Yes that's true, but there are different degrees or grades of problematic-ness. Say, yellowface is bad* (Fu Manchu movies), non-yellowface Asian roles even in typecast archetypes is less bad and counts as an improvement but still needs to be improved upon (cheesy kung fu flicks), and then Asian generalization glossing over regional identities is not ideal but it's still an improvement of Asians being only Kung Fu Masters (Raya), etc.

(Your head would explode at how yellowface actually exists in Philippine media, like in the 90s we had this movie about a Filipino-Chinese clan and the actors and actresses had their eyes taped to be more narrow lol and some of them were actually Filipino-Chinese)

My problem is we should ignore the notion of degrees or grades of problematic-ness because this is how progress is made. Afterall, one of the main weapons against progressiveness is the idea that "all the serious racism stuff is no longer a problem, so modern progressive are just snowflakes complaining about the minor stuff."

[Shroom Man 777]

Just because it has done something right doesn't lessen the problems in anyway.

So Airbender and Korra are equivalent to Disney 30s racist cartoons?

I'm making this line of inquiry because I want to know what are the criteria is for determining severity - hence the jokes of quantifying gigajoules and asteroid vaporizations and spherical masses of iron.

My problem is we should ignore the notion of degrees or grades of problematic-ness because this is how progress is made. Afterall, one of the main weapons against progressiveness is the idea that "all the serious racism stuff is no longer a problem, so modern progressive are just snowflakes complaining about the minor stuff."

Eh, but how can one recognize progress is being made or if progress is lacking or middling if one doesn't parse the subject and then just blanketly say "Airbender and Korra are also as bad as Disney 1930s racist cartoons"?

[Eternal_Freedom]

So I got around to seeing this over the weekend and...eh. I honestly don't know what I think about it except that it's a barely-passable excuse of a plot stretched waaaay too long as cover for an (admittedly amazing) CGI nature documentary. When the space whales turned up I was half-expecting David Attenborough to start narrating.

The initial bit, with the humans returning and Jake leading his resistance was interesting and then, boom, Jake and family leg it to start a new life. Leaving behind their tribe, their human friends, the preserved body of Kiri's mother, all of it.

The final battle was impressive in it's spectacle and so forth, but the middle 90-100 minutes really fucking dragged. I also don't get the whole "Jake and children are half-breeds" thing that got mentioned a few times, like how many fingers they had. Why would you bother growing an Avatar body that isn't a dead copy of the actual Na'vi? Given Avatar-Jake is able to father offspring they got it almost exactly right, so why this "half breed" crap other than as a source of teenage angst for the kids?

And on reflection, I'm really not clear on Jake and family's decision to leave. So he thinks that if they stay they and the tribe will all die because Quarritch is after them specifically? Um, aren't that tribe the ones fighting the humans and blowing shit up? They're gonna be targets anyway and the humans probably want to kill them all.

Unless of course it's meant to be a subtle admission that Jake really doesn't know what he's doing and wants out, and this "I'm leaving to protect you" gives him an excuse.

The magic brain fluid seems to exist purely as a anvilicious "whaling is bad" analogy and excuse for a water-based finale. Also, I can't help but speculate that given the munitions and fuel expended, the number of crew needed and the amount of time it took, coupled with inevitable inflation, and that one little vial being worth "$80 million" might be a loss not a profit.

And one final thought that's been pinging around my head. Given the Na'vi are supposed to be so in tune with nature, and respecting all life that's part of the world-spirit, why are they so prominently shown hunting animals for food? Shouldn't they all be herbivores?

[Shroom Man 777]

I also don't get the whole "Jake and children are half-breeds" thing that got mentioned a few times, like how many fingers they had. Why would you bother growing an Avatar body that isn't a dead copy of the actual Na'vi? Given Avatar-Jake is able to father offspring they got it almost exactly right, so why this "half breed" crap other than as a source of teenage angst for the kids?

First gen Avatars are supposed to incorporate the paired-human DNA for the neural link thing hence Jake being the only one who could replace his twin. That these vat-grown DNA-mixed bodies can apparently reproduce with natural Na'vi could be startling for insular folks who would have their own conception of the "natural order" and show that the Na'vi can be pricks (heck Jake was almost Kill On Sight in the first one) and also shows that kids can be assholes even if they're giant blue alienoid kids?

And on reflection, I'm really not clear on Jake and family's decision to leave. So he thinks that if they stay they and the tribe will all die because Quarritch is after them specifically? Um, aren't that tribe the ones fighting the humans and blowing shit up? They're gonna be targets anyway and the humans probably want to kill them all.

Unless of course it's meant to be a subtle admission that Jake really doesn't know what he's doing and wants out, and this "I'm leaving to protect you" gives him an excuse.

He got cold feet because there's a difference between anonymous conflict and you and your family including kids being in a US CIA wanted playing-card kill-list for special forces kinda thing? It's not like an apartment complex in Pakistan near Islamabad was close by

The magic brain fluid seems to exist purely as a anvilicious "whaling is bad" analogy and excuse for a water-based finale. Also, I can't help but speculate that given the munitions and fuel expended, the number of crew needed and the amount of time it took, coupled with inevitable inflation, and that one little vial being worth "$80 million" might be a loss not a profit.

PeZook's theories (I quoted previously) imply that the RDA is bullshitting to over-sell the whale juice and pretty much everything else they're extracting from Pandora for the sake of $$$. They built a fleet of interstellar ships with reactor outputs that probably exceed that of the entirety of all human civilization.

And one final thought that's been pinging around my head. Given the Na'vi are supposed to be so in tune with nature, and respecting all life that's part of the world-spirit, why are they so prominently shown hunting animals for food? Shouldn't they all be herbivores?

That could vary, like how IRL Jain religion people are super vegan and won't even eat onions or something because of their cycle of life beliefs or something. The Na'vi are still into the cycle of life stuff that includes predation? Not all animals could have neurological capacity to form meaningful links in a way that Na'vi would consider them beings that would experience pain and stuff, so they are considered edible? I mean we see the same thing with the sentient whale society, most of them abhor violence but one of them chose violence and became Whale Ahab. IIRC in the first one we do see Neytiri or someone offer prayers or words after hunting down an animal for food.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair points. Though on the whole "jake leaves" thing, I'm gonna chalk it up to "oh shit, people I actually like might get hurt, fuck it I'm out." Especially since nothing was said about the rest of the resistance stopping, and Jake's military training seemed to be why they were doing as well as they were. So him fucking off probably means more dead Na'Vi, not less. Woops?

But yeah, overall I'm gonna give it the same review I give LOTR as a whole. It's an impressively made film with some stunning effects work (the space geek in me loved the ISV's arriving) but it just didn't hold my interest well at all. You had one plot, then sideline it completely for a rehash of "Jake learns Na'Vi ways." Bah humbug.

[ray245]

Just because it has done something right doesn't lessen the problems in anyway.

So Airbender and Korra are equivalent to Disney 30s racist cartoons?

I'm making this line of inquiry because I want to know what are the criteria is for determining severity - hence the jokes of quantifying gigajoules and asteroid vaporizations and spherical masses of iron.

Fundamentally, the problems they have are the same.

Eh, but how can one recognize progress is being made or if progress is lacking or middling if one doesn't parse the subject and then just blanketly say "Airbender and Korra are also as bad as Disney 1930s racist cartoons"?

Progress is made when we move on to resolve the next issue. Progress isn't an issue of scale, but more about the notion of resolving problems after problems.

[Ralin]

The magic brain fluid seems to exist purely as a anvilicious "whaling is bad" analogy and excuse for a water-based finale. Also, I can't help but speculate that given the munitions and fuel expended, the number of crew needed and the amount of time it took, coupled with inevitable inflation, and that one little vial being worth "$80 million" might be a loss not a profit.

Haven't seen the movie yet, but...it's an immortality potion. Its value is well beyond the price people are willing or able to pay for it. 80 million could just be what the people responsible for harvesting it get. I'd be surprised if it was sold on anything resembling the open market as opposed to going directly to Space Elon Musk, people he decides to reward and people who trade huge favors or concessions to him.

[bilateralrope]

So I got around to seeing this over the weekend and...eh. I honestly don't know what I think about it except that it's a barely-passable excuse of a plot stretched waaaay too long as cover for an (admittedly amazing) CGI nature documentary. When the space whales turned up I was half-expecting David Attenborough to start narrating.

Avatar 2 being way to long is the reason I'm hesitating to see it. While I can go without using the toilet for its running time, that will get uncomfortable near the end. Oh and that's just going by the movie run time, I can't find any information for how long the trailers before the movie will be.

[Shroom Man 777]

Fundamentally, the problems they have are the same.

Sure, okay, we can both agree that it's the same issue though you disagree that the degrees can be quantified. Anyway, I cited those other examples because they show that works such as Airbender, Korra, Kung Fu Panda, whatever can have those flaws and still be enjoyable. Even more enjoyable than works that have more representation like Raya.

Progress is made when we move on to resolve the next issue. Progress isn't an issue of scale, but more about the notion of resolving problems after problems.

Scale has to be quantified so we can determine if there is actual improvement or if the situation is worsening? I mean hypothetically if the US turns into some Handmaiden's Tale sort of thing and regresses so the later Airbender movies or Raya sequels or whatever don't have minorities because the US renewed the Chinese Exclusion Act, you and I would say that "obviously while the earlier show Korra lacked minority voice actors it is less flawed than the recently released Rayavatar 12: Crazy Kung Flu Asians Way of Wuhan" or something.

[Shroom Man 777]

Fair points. Though on the whole "jake leaves" thing, I'm gonna chalk it up to "oh shit, people I actually like might get hurt, fuck it I'm out." Especially since nothing was said about the rest of the resistance stopping, and Jake's military training seemed to be why they were doing as well as they were. So him fucking off probably means more dead Na'Vi, not less. Woops?

If the main actions weren't mass retaliation but direct pursuit of Jake then he might've directed attention away from them. And Jake also did imply that the others in the clan were already capable of handling themselves (IIRC he said that the other dude could handle it)?

You see him going "I need to leave the conflict zone because I am so scared for the family that I love so much" while at the same time "THIS FAMILY IS OUR FORTRESS TOUGHEN UP MY SOLDIER SONS" that ironically alienates his kids even as he tries to hold onto them (grasping too tightly perhaps) and later on realizes how the fear and conflict were making him a toxic dad, and I digged that.

But yeah, overall I'm gonna give it the same review I give LOTR as a whole. It's an impressively made film with some stunning effects work (the space geek in me loved the ISV's arriving) but it just didn't hold my interest well at all. You had one plot, then sideline it completely for a rehash of "Jake learns Na'Vi ways." Bah humbug.

There's a place for long LOTR-style works that could be seen as vanity projects IMO. As for the plot, I don't think it was a rehash of Jake Learning Na'vi ways? Jake's a dad and is actually not the main focus, it's the kids growing up and while we see them learn ways in a new area that also helps us avoid the alien-one-world-monoculture cliche? But yeah Cameron indulging in his water ocean love AND flexing how he can do CG water which made Hideo Kojima cream his pants.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Not a complete rehash, granted, but the basic elements are all the same - the outsider has to learn completely new skills to fit in "and avoid being useless" as the water chief dude said. Combine that with teenage angst and urgh, no thank you.

[Broomstick]

So I got around to seeing this over the weekend and...eh. I honestly don't know what I think about it except that it's a barely-passable excuse of a plot stretched waaaay too long as cover for an (admittedly amazing) CGI nature documentary. When the space whales turned up I was half-expecting David Attenborough to start narrating.

Avatar 2 being way to long is the reason I'm hesitating to see it. While I can go without using the toilet for its running time, that will get uncomfortable near the end. Oh and that's just going by the movie run time, I can't find any information for how long the trailers before the movie will be.

My recollection is about a half an hour of pre-show, so that's about 3.5-4 hours altogether with buying tickets, getting a seat, pre-show, and show.

If you must take a toilet break do it during the bit where the kids are learning to hold their breath/swim with the fishes because honestly that was about 30-45 minutes too long for my taste and missing that will have minimal to no effect on understanding the rest of the movie.

[bilateralrope]

So I got around to seeing this over the weekend and...eh. I honestly don't know what I think about it except that it's a barely-passable excuse of a plot stretched waaaay too long as cover for an (admittedly amazing) CGI nature documentary. When the space whales turned up I was half-expecting David Attenborough to start narrating.

Avatar 2 being way to long is the reason I'm hesitating to see it. While I can go without using the toilet for its running time, that will get uncomfortable near the end. Oh and that's just going by the movie run time, I can't find any information for how long the trailers before the movie will be.

My recollection is about a half an hour of pre-show, so that's about 3.5-4 hours altogether with buying tickets, getting a seat, pre-show, and show.

If you must take a toilet break do it during the bit where the kids are learning to hold their breath/swim with the fishes because honestly that was about 30-45 minutes too long for my taste and missing that will have minimal to no effect on understanding the rest of the movie.

Or I can just wait for the streaming release and use the pause button.

[Adam Reynolds]

With respect to Lindsey Ellis and Raya vs ATLA, much of that seems to have been people who were out to get her in the first place. No one seemed to care that Honest Trailers made that the core punchline of their bit on Raya, and and people seemed to prop up Raya as being better than it was in order to attack her further.

With respect to Raya, there was a rather interesting and extremely long two part review hosted by Xiran Jay Zhou(who is Chinese-Canadian), and with virtually all of the analysis from actual SEA voices. Most of it wound up rather harsh, and they also covered the Lindsey Ellis issue:


For ATLA and Korra, I have a feeling that they didn't see anything as wrong with white voice actors given how popular dubbing of anime was at that time(and mostly still is). It felt like an extension of that even though it wasn't exactly.

A deeper problem with ATLA/Korra is that they are made by white creators, which can actually create a sort of cultural uncanny valley for those actually from Asia in which characters in an Asian looking world act like Americans. A rather interesting analysis focused on Zuko's redemption arc can be found here, discussing how it would have played out by more accurate Buddhist, Confucian, or Taoist beliefs:

[ray245]

With respect to Lindsey Ellis and Raya vs ATLA, much of that seems to have been people who were out to get her in the first place. No one seemed to care that Honest Trailers made that the core punchline of their bit on Raya, and and people seemed to prop up Raya as being better than it was in order to attack her further.

With respect to Raya, there was a rather interesting and extremely long two part review hosted by Xiran Jay Zhou(who is Chinese-Canadian), and with virtually all of the analysis from actual SEA voices. Most of it wound up rather harsh, and they also covered the Lindsey Ellis issue:


Yeah, as someone actually from SEA, I would say there's the huge issue of lumping SEA into one culture, when no such unified culture ever existed. Certainly nothing comparable to an "broad European" culture.

Which is why giving local creators the ability to create fictional cultures based on local content will be the best approach.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, as someone actually from SEA, I would say there's the huge issue of lumping SEA into one culture, when no such unified culture ever existed. Certainly nothing comparable to an "broad European" culture.

Which is why giving local creators the ability to create fictional cultures based on local content will be the best approach.

Of course. It's just hilarious tho that here in the Philippines practically everyone with cable TV who tuned into Nickelodeon automatically judged Raya as bargain bin ATLA

Like, I think Raya did do some progress but aside from the representation issue it was pretty lukewarm. And I'm not the not the Watched-ATLA-Korra-Nickelodeon demographic.

(Even when it's not Asian or whatever settings a single movie will do an unsatisfactory job of worldbuilding a big culture anyway. Serieses will do better.)

Tangent: even local creators, depending on where they are in their homelands, can generalize their own cultures and piss off their countrymen (of course this is still better than letting the gaijin do it). Especially when we're following tropes and story conventions from the West because that's what we're raised with. At least that's how it goes in my regionalized archipelago where the mainstream media is Manila-centric. In our local martial arts scene, the Mindanao Muslim martial artist community is actually just when the rest of the country appropriates their kris knives and swords (like the ones used in Raya) while being proud and nationalistic when... the same Mindanao Muslim communities are villified as terrorists or secessionists by their northern neighbors who historically invaded and settled upon their lands. I think they like the Indonesians and Malaysians better... and I can't blame them.

[LadyTevar]

Do we need a separate Thread for this discussion of "WhiteWashing"?

[Darth Yan]

Honestly that might be a good idea.

[ray245]

Yeah, as someone actually from SEA, I would say there's the huge issue of lumping SEA into one culture, when no such unified culture ever existed. Certainly nothing comparable to an "broad European" culture.

Which is why giving local creators the ability to create fictional cultures based on local content will be the best approach.

Of course. It's just hilarious tho that here in the Philippines practically everyone with cable TV who tuned into Nickelodeon automatically judged Raya as bargain bin ATLA

Like, I think Raya did do some progress but aside from the representation issue it was pretty lukewarm. And I'm not the not the Watched-ATLA-Korra-Nickelodeon demographic.

(Even when it's not Asian or whatever settings a single movie will do an unsatisfactory job of worldbuilding a big culture anyway. Serieses will do better.)

Tangent: even local creators, depending on where they are in their homelands, can generalize their own cultures and piss off their countrymen (of course this is still better than letting the gaijin do it). Especially when we're following tropes and story conventions from the West because that's what we're raised with. At least that's how it goes in my regionalized archipelago where the mainstream media is Manila-centric. In our local martial arts scene, the Mindanao Muslim martial artist community is actually just when the rest of the country appropriates their kris knives and swords (like the ones used in Raya) while being proud and nationalistic when... the same Mindanao Muslim communities are villified as terrorists or secessionists by their northern neighbors who historically invaded and settled upon their lands. I think they like the Indonesians and Malaysians better... and I can't blame them.

That's the problem with viewing everything via a western lens, which is ultimately an extension of the European lens. Like it's hard to argue that Africa has a collective identity the same way Europe has other than the fact that they were all colonised... but even then you would say North Africa is very different from South Africa for example.

Even the notion of "Southeast Asia" was a term invented by military generals during WW2 because it makes it easier to command forces there, but no one was ever thinking they are the same culture.

Until the Cold War kicks in and one of my history professor told us how American unis lump and make everyone from SEA sit together because they are somehow the same culture, nevermind the fact that places like Singapore will have more in common with places like Taiwan, Hong Kong than say Thailand or the Philippines.