Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2022-02-17 07:18pm
All you're proving is that people raised in complete isolation to violent sociopaths... will turn out to be violent sociopaths. It's not really exactly an insightful warning for our time.
That's why most stories go the 'freedom vs security', 'evil wins if good men do nothing' type loop. We'd rather be happy and secure. More on this on the next section. But even if the waffen SS were a minority they were still regular people convinced by fascism a warning in complacency, in easy promises etc etc. The clones are a manufactured waffen ss an external minority imposing fascism not a danger from within.
The important component to me is that they are not genetically modified or implanted to act the way they do. They are baseline humans, raised to behave a certain way. All humans would behave that way if raised that way--we don't get to dismiss it as "oh they were genetically modified to be obedient" or "of course they wouldn't kill someone they loved, they were forced to." You raise a good point, of course, but I think the most important component to dismantle is the literal dehumanization.
I really dislike this. Maybe it's just me but I can't make it fit with ANH, where the Rebellion is a tiny non-entity that could be wiped out by destroying Yavin, made up of political idealists. And the Empire has only just dissolved the Imperial Senate and stopped presenting itself the republic under a different name.
A couple of caveats, I know the rebels are supposed to be well equipped enough to endanger the starfleet, which does seem at odds with the wiped out at Yavin thing but the stakes of ANH only makes sense to me if that's true. And yes my impression of the senate thing is influenced by the prequels. Can't unsee them.
You seem to have the Empire imposed by the clones from without. That would to me mean a lot less legitimacy and a lot more rebellion. It also defeats the whole fascism from within thing when it's being pushed by the ultimate others. The manufactured clone army.
Well, part of the problem is that I just need to hurry up and write out the rest of the outline. Some of this is featured in more detail, I guess.
I never saw the Rebellion like that. I always interpreted the movies to just show off an aspect of a much greater conflict, with Endor being the only time the full might of the Rebellion is revealed on screen. There's a galactic brushfire conflict going on--Rebel-backed privateers, sector commands for regional Rebel insurgents, many hidden bases. Yavin would have meant the death of the Rebel Alliance because that's where its leadership currently was hiding--but it wouldn't have ended the war. The Empire can never win conclusively, it can only keep fighting whenever something else pops up.
That's my view of the movies as they are. With the context of my story here, the distinction between the Third Clone War and the Rebellion is
who is fighting. The Rebel Alliance is most importantly an
alliance, bringing together remnants of the Confederacy with the Core World senators who realized the Republic had become a tyranny. Everything beyond the Colonies has been mildly disdained by the Core since forever, and the Clone Wars turned that to fear. The Empire is completely legitimate in the Core, in their eyes, it is only in the Mid and Outer Rim where it was imposed through violence alone.
Except in your universe, the clones are all violent sociopaths and Waffen SS equivalents. There is not a tragic moral quandary there, they way you've set up. You can't have it both ways, either they are tragic figures torn between orders and friendships or they are complete dependable political thugs. Which is it?
I don't quite see the need for it to be black and white. Like I said, I need to write out more of the timeline, but I think the Clone Wars need to last more than a decade all told. That is plenty of time for nuance. The
baseline of my clones vs Filoni's is that they are brutal monsters, but they are still human. Over time, they will form all manner of connections and personalities and quirks just as humans do; unlike the rest of us, the "home personality" they fall back on is pretty fuckin terrible.
A short example, from a prose interlude I intend to post later. A scene of clones working to raise resistance fighters in a small village. It is after training, and a feast has been prepared in honor of some victory or another. The clones, in partial armor, are dancing and eating and laughing alongside the villagers. They play with the children, they drink, they carouse. But a few hours later, one family hurriedly leaves the village in the wee hours, possibly representing a security breach if they are found by droids. One of the clones who had been drinking with the mother and playing with the child is ordered to terminate them to alleviate the risk, and he does so. He might hesitate, he might waffle, but at the end of the day he chooses to murder a man, a woman, and a child for the sake of the mission. He is a soldier first, even as his individuality and humanity is shown.
I mean in part what Yan is getting at is in story, these guys are manufactured. (I wrote this bit first and then went up so sorry this is no repetitious) They are designed and built for a purpose. You don't want them to be altered or brain chipped for thematic reasons, but why wouldn't Palpatine in universe want to control as much as possible? You can handwave it and say these options just don't exist in your version of Star Wars but ultimately indoctrinating them from birth comes to the same thing. It's not a message about the human condition or anything.
Regarding the brain chips, I guess I am handwaving them. I don't like that word, since they didn't exist as a concept until Clone Wars season 6 a decade after Order 66, they're barely Star Wars, but I guess they do count. But you and the others do make an excellent point regarding indoctrination being the same thing. The story needs to be careful: the clones need humanizing moments to show that the indoctrination didn't make them into living droids. And then have that humanity factor into their betrayal of the Jedi.
bilateralrope wrote: ↑2022-02-18 12:11am
If they are sufficiently indoctrinated that enough of them will gun down the Jedi as soon as they are given the order, they are too indoctrinated to form any real bonds with the Jedi and the Jedi will know it. Maybe from hearing whatever slurs the clones have for Jedi, maybe from telepathy.
The Jedi will see the clones as being necessary at first. But they will be wary. They are going to be using what political influence they have to only use the clones where necessary. Probably wanting them phased out and replaced with military forces recruited from civilian populations. Once those military forces become available, which forces do you think the Jedi will choose to surround themselves with ?
--snip--
The bring chips eliminate all those problems. The clones get to form genuine friendships with the Jedi, which the Jedi can confirm through their telepathy. They aren't going to have any complaints about stationing clones in areas that need protecting, nor having almost every Jedi surrounded by clones most of the time. They aren't going to be arguing for phasing the clones out. Then Order 66 happens and the chip overrides the clones free will.
I feel like most of this is pretty well addressed by the section you quoted. There are legitimate military reasons why a Jedi coup should be feared by the clones. It doesn't need to be black and white, "either the clones always hate the Jedi or they form friendships and won't betray." There can be nuance. The clones ARE sociopathic monsters, because they were raised by sociopaths in a clinical nightmare of a home, but they DO diverge away from that in years of war alongside comrades they love. But maybe it isn't enough, and coupled with the things in the passage you quoted, the vast majority of clones decide "orders are orders." Or they react in fear, like I said earlier, and think "I doubt Ahsoka would do this, but the C-in-C said she did, and if I'm wrong then a theocracy takes over the government and it's my fault."
Not all Jedi will be loved. Some will be hated, which will probably be the most "holier than thou" types, who will also be those that feel a DUTY to serve in order to keep men like Tarkin from fighting the war THEIR way.
Bottom line about the brain chips, they're just a lazy writing tool. "Fuck, we don't really have a good reason for things to happen the way they happen. I guess we could just throw in mind control, fuck it." They should have been the last resort.
Oh and recruiting military from civilians causes another problem for Palpatine. With clones, the number being bred can be adjusted behind the scenes to match droid production. Preventing either side from winning too quickly. He has much less control over how many soldiers a planet recruits from its civilian population.
I don't think that's such a huge consideration. Clones have a ten year lead time for adjustments, remember. Actually, I would wager that controlling recruitment is EASIER. With clones, if you take less than the entirety of the latest generation, everyone is going to wonder why. Super suspicious. With recruitment, there are a million and one ways to reduce yield. New medical regulations, manipulate planetary governors into shortchanging you, start being racist against nonhumans, conveniently lose draft documentation for a few sectors one year. Blame it all on the Republican corruption you're trying to fight if anyone notices.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.
--Mace
The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.
--Solauren
I always get nervous when I hear the word Christian.
--Mountain
Brought to you by Carl's Jr.