Why did Middle Earth not advance in 3000 years?

[Adam Reynolds]

Why is it that the flashbacks in the beginning of Fellowship had the same level of technology as the main stories despite the massive chronological difference? Was magic suppressing technological development?

[Batman]

Because it's fiction and the creator had no interest in that.

[Skywalker_T-65]

What Bats said.

Alternatively, Middle Earth actually regressed for the most part. The Elves faded, the Numenoreans (I probably misspelled that) lost their touch as they became scarcer and scarcer...

Suffice to say, there is a reason that stuff like Isengard and Minas Tirith are both ancient and without peer in more 'modern' Middle Earth.

[Adam Reynolds]

Because it's fiction and the creator had no interest in that.

That is undoubtedly true, but that doesn't mean we can't analyze why in universe. We have countless pages arguing whether walkers make sense in Star Wars or why X-wing pilots use their eyes as opposed to visual sensors. Both of those were because the author didn't quite want the feeling of WW1 on Hoth and wanted to recreate WW2 aerial combat.

[Gandalf]

To go from that perspective, the Elves had no reason for technological advancement because they had everything they needed.

Concurrently, Men spent their time trying to get their shit together as their kingdoms slowly corrupted themselves.

[Tribble]

IMO a lot of it had to do with the very high body count. By the end of the Second Age things were already in a state of decline: the Elves of Eregion were long-since destroyed, the Numenoreans were practically wiped out and the "Last Alliance" had suffered extremely heavy casualties battling Sauron. Over the course of the Third Age you had things like the Kin-strife of Gondor, the Great Plague, the destruction of Arnor by the Witch King, the destruction of Osgiliath and Minas Ithil, the destruction of Khazad-dûm and the lonely Mountain by the Balrog and Smaug, Goblin Wars, wars with a remerging Mordor, dragon attacks etc etc. And of course the Elves gradually heading West. By the time of the Fellowship of the Ring the only real city left standing was Mians Tirith, and even then it was just a shadow of its former self. And it spent most of tis time in a constant state of war with Mordor, constantly suffering casualties. The rest of Middle-Earth was pretty much desolate, apart from a small town here and there. I imagine that the remaining population of Middle-Earth would have had more than enough trouble trying to feed themselves, maintain what little they had left and not die due to the enemy action.

Magic also played a big role of course. In addition to magic replacing the need for certain things, I would imagine that the few scholars / scientists left were probably trying to relearn and rebuild lost technology / magic from the First and Second Ages rather than focusing on learning and building new things. I would imagine that would stifle things quite a bit too.

[Elheru Aran]

Why is it that the flashbacks in the beginning of Fellowship had the same level of technology as the main stories despite the massive chronological difference? Was magic suppressing technological development?

Several decent reasons have been postulated.

Consider though. It's not that unusual for people to 'advance' only very incrementally. Note that the Neolithic period covered a span of millennia. Humanity has a tendency to stay static given proper environmental stimuli.

Essentially we are seeing a direct parallel (Tolkien detested allegory, but he could not resist tying Middle-Earth) to actual history. Gondor was meant to be ancient Rome (with some Egyptian influences, but nobody's perfect), and the area of Middle-Earth that it used to control was in decline not unlike the fall of the western Roman Empire. The city of Minas Tirith itself stands, but the empire declines to the point that nobody really knows or cares about it until the King returns.

Also bear in mind that the 'prequel' part of Fellowship of the Ring happens more or less immediately after the fall of Numenor, arguably Middle-Earth's height of culture and achievement during the Second Age. After that point, not only do you have a decline in the Elves (been going on since the First Age, but increased considerably after the apparent defeat of Sauron), but you have a constant negative influence from the quite literal forces of evil-- perhaps not Sauron so much but also the Witch-King of Angmar and quite a few other things going on. The kingdoms of Men are simply struggling to survive. Technological and cultural advancement aren't really a thing for them. The Elves have a high-end culture and technology, and while Men could emulate it (see Numenor and Gondor), they could never really hit that same peak on a consistent basis thanks to their shorter lifespans.

[Korgeta]

Bear in mind that actual civilizations like the Roamns, Egyptians and the Han dynasty of China etc all made impressive developments and were culturally rich but end up becoming stagnant in process and falling into decline, history isn't a steady rise, its turbulent. The same can be said of middle earth, if human kingdoms weren't at war with each other then there was threats from more outlandish beasts to the outright super natural who were susceptible to disease still.

The capability for industry is there (as shown by sauraman in the two towers) but other then knowledge is kept away by the wizards, there's disaster's natural and by enemies that will throw people back in progress.

I would say its down to slow population growth with surprisingly few areas that settlers can make a new home and build on or unwilling to commit to the level of deforestation that Saurman did.

[Purple]

Thing is, how do we know they did not advance? Yes the magic of the Numenor and the old days was ebbing or gone and people could not make high end magical swords or indestructible towers and stuff. But that does not mean that there was a uniform fall in all technology everywhere. Those sorts of projects are not a function of technology as much as wealth. And I am willing to bet that even back in the day not every soldier carried a magical sword of wraith slaying or had a mitrhril shirt. For all we know the average metal used for the swords, armor and plows used by the average soldier and farmer or the average horse ridden by the average knight might well have been of better quality by the time we hit the end of the third age. It's just that because society collapsed there was nobody rich enough to assemble a project team to actually afford looking into high end magical stuff or building a new magical tower. So that technology became lost over time whilst more mundane stuff might well not have been. This is basically what happened to Europe in the middle ages. Mundane technology used by the everyman kept advancing but nobody could figure out how to rebuild the aqueducts.

[Simon_Jester]

The standards of craftsmanship and technology of the First and Second Ages were much higher than that of Middle-Earth in the Third Age. So it's no surprise that the weapons and armor seen in a battle scene at Pelennor Fields are as good as or better than those seen towards the end of the Third Age in the War of the Ring.

It's like asking "why did the setting of the game Fallout not advance in the years 2070-2170?" The answer is simple; because the people of of 2170 in that setting are living in the war-shattered ruins of a once-great civilization, and are struggling for survival, without the means to rediscover the capabilities they lost. Especially since some of those abilities are explicitly linked to the genetics of certain civilizations, and interbreeding with outsiders actually does diminish the longevity, strength, and powers of Numenorean survivors in a concrete way.

[LaCroix]

First, the third age had a huge plague (~1600). That alone would make any pre-industrial economy plummet when most of the workforce simply keels over, and their knowledge dies with them. After that, it saw almost constant warfare, especially towards the end, like with the Charioteers, constant orc raids, not to forget the Angmar Witch King. That probably stiffled the econonomy a lot.

The final reason might very well be Smaug and the Balrog/orcs.

Moria fell over 1000 years ago (around the year 2000 of the 3rd age), because their thirst for Mithril, the dwarves of Moria dug faster and faster, and "too deep"... (I say it was probably to meet demand of the human customers, as well)

When Moria got overrun, the supply of metals collapsed, which definitely sent the economies reeling. Moria never resumed production for non-orcs.

The Dwarves settled the Erebor,flourished for 200 years, left for the grey mountains, returned to Erebor 300 years later after they had too much trouble with dragons, and then smaug came looking 200 years later...

With these huge mining settlements gone for the last 1000 years, and replacements resettling every ~200 years, supplies might have dwindled so much that prices skyrocketed, and whole industries collapsed under the lack of material and available tooling. (For as soon as something once widespread, as e.g. iron, is rare, you will have problems getting good axes, saws, files, planers, or even nails. Everything down the line grinds to a halt.)

If a huge part of our mining capabilities suddenly ceased to exist, almost overnight, while you're still pre-industrial, and still recovering from the plague and a war following on it's heels, it's no wonder that economy stagnates or even declines.

[NecronLord]

I always liked the image that Tolkien gave of Numenor at its height in some of his unpublished works (History of Middle Earth volume 5):

"The teaching of Sauron has led to the invention of ships of metal that traverse the seas without sails, but which are hideous in the eyes of those who have not abandoned or forgotten Tol Eressea; to the building of grim fortresses and unlovely towers; and to missiles that pass with a noise like thunder to strike their targets many miles away."

“Our ships go now without the wind, and many are made of metal that sheareth rocks, and they sink not in calm or storm; but they are no longer fair to look upon. But our shields are impenetrable, our swords cannot be withstood, our darts are like thunder and pass over leagues unerring.”

While it can be said that he retconned that, as the description used in the Silmarillion references the Numenorian ships of the period being rowed by slaves and having sails, the Silmarillion is ostensibly a history compiled much later.

Sauron's motives were always said to be ordering things as he felt fit using his divine knowledge of the matter of Arda; I wonder if he didn't give the field of natural engineering a bad name in the second and third ages? Certainly the cultures that embraced Sauron's teachings on the building of engines and machines, Numenor and Eregion, came to bad ends because of him.

[Guardsman Bass]

Others have already said it, but essentially western Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring is a wane shadow of what it was in the Second and early Third Ages. Gondor has drastically shrunk in territory and population from disease, civil war, and other conflicts, and the most populated part of it is dealing with increasing aggression and power from enemies to the South (particularly Pelargir). Rohan's alright, although they were thinly populated to begin with and took a big blow from some of the previous Easterling invasions. The northwest has been hit the hardest of them all, with the northern Kingdom completely collapsed aside from the Shire and a handful of towns like Bree, the Elves either fled west or wiped out aside from Rivendell and the shrinking Elvish realm in Mirkwood, and the Dwarves having gone through two dragon-driven convulsions that wrecked their primary kingdoms in the North (the loss of the Grey Mountains kingdoms, and the loss of the Lonely Mountain).

Of course, that doesn't explain why the far East and South of Middle-Earth haven't advanced more. Maybe you could talk that up to unforeseen convulsions and collapses after Sauron's first fall to the Last Alliance, or the demise of Numenor (the Numenoreans in their prime established strongholds and kingdoms all over Middle-Earth's coastline).

[Zeropoint]

You know, as an engineer, I find Tolkein's descriptions of Numenorean technology a bit narrow-minded and offensive. There's absolutely no reason that a ship of metal which "goes without wind, and sinketh not in calm or storm" has to be ugly.

[amigocabal]

Another thing to consider is cost, of course. For a real life example, Justinian actually built a steam-powered toy boat. The likely reason that steam-powered galleys were not used widely was because it was much, much more expensive than traditional galleys, and did not offer much more convenience in return.

[Zeropoint]

Well, yeah, making a ship really pretty on top of being seaworthy is going to raise the cost. That applies at any technology level, though. You can make a functional but ugly dugout canoe with a lot less effort than what's required for a dugout canoe with graceful, elegant lines and beautiful floral carvings all over it. If you have ugly ships, it's because the people paying for the ships don't care about beauty. What I object to in Tolkein's words is the implication that a loss of aesthetic appreciation is directly linked to the more advanced technology.

I also feel that to a large extent, an ugly machine is a poorly designed machine. Our aesthetic sensibilities are heavily influenced by the forms we find in nature--and the forms we find in nature are forms that are well-adapted to the laws of nature that govern their environment. Fish and birds have sleek, well-shaped bodies because the laws of fluid dynamics demand it, and a ship or airplane that operates efficiently will have similarly sleek lines.

Furthermore, both of those quotes seemed to be dealing with a military setting, and when LIVES are on the line, I'd rather have an ugly but effective ship than a pretty but ineffective one, and I'd rather have ten ugly but effective ships than nine pretty and effective ships.

[FaxModem1]

Tolkien has a bit of a theme against the future and progress, a huge theme of the book is how the good old days where were we followed the proper king, and how stepping away from these ways is ruining it.

Consider the Shire, modern industry is brought to it, and its considered the destruction of the Hobbits home. True, this is the work of Saruman and Lotho Sacksville-Baggins, but its clear Tolkien is against the idea of technology and its effect on the world, and one's homeland.

This makes sense, as Tolkien saw World War I, and its effect on both the people on the frontlines and its effect on his homeland due to the rapid changes in industry.

[Zixinus]

Wasn't there a line by some Gondor guard with Aragorn about how the houses declined because they set themselves to things like observing stars and such?

I get the impression is that because the enemy (Both Sauron and Saruman) use high(ish) technology in a ruthless manner to gain an advantage, they think any technology is from the enemy?

[NecronLord]

You know, as an engineer, I find Tolkein's descriptions of Numenorean technology a bit narrow-minded and offensive. There's absolutely no reason that a ship of metal which "goes without wind, and sinketh not in calm or storm" has to be ugly.

Well yes, you have to be kind of blind to not come away from Tolkien's works with the impression that if not an actual luddite he was severely critical of industrialization generally.

Furthermore, both of those quotes seemed to be dealing with a military setting, and when LIVES are on the line, I'd rather have an ugly but effective ship than a pretty but ineffective one, and I'd rather have ten ugly but effective ships than nine pretty and effective ships.

Yes.

The Numenorians were good at that kind of thing. That's why Sauron humbled himself before Ar-Pharazon in the first place.

[LadyTevar]

Also recall this: the First Numenorian King was Elrond's brother Elros. Elros Half-Elven chose to be mortal, although he and his descendants were granted long life, numbering in the hundreds of years. His people were the "High Men", and had all the cunning and knowledge left by Men of the First Age. They improved what they could, and made Numenor the ruling human Empire (modeled after a Rome/British Empire conglomerate). But... having Kings who ruled for 200-400yrs also had the drawbacks of 'if it works don't fix it'.

When Sauron caused Numenor's Fall, it was the Fall of Rome plus the Destruction of Atlantis. All the best and brightest of Numenor was left as wreckage, heirlooms, or half-remmebered stories of how things were done. Gondor and Arnor both forgot more than they kept of the High Men's knowledge. Sauron used the other Kingdoms of Men to destroy the rest.

Thus, the MidEarth we visit in the novels is Dark Age Europe -- a mix of city-states and small communities that were all self-governed locally. Without a central government, and with needs more focused internally, there was no need to innovate. The Shire is especially noticeable in this. While it is mentioned that the Shire was protected by the Dunedane prior to the War of the Ring, the average Hobbit had no clue there were dangers like Wargs and Orcs outside the Shire. They lived in a happy little bubble where the only danger might be the flooding of the river, or missing out on dinner. No need for innovation here -- unless it was for a new recipe or a better way to prep food

[Zixinus]

There probably was innovation, just medieval innovations and not innovations that us industrialized people would focus on. Pipe-smoking, as trivial as it sounds, is an example: they have domesticated a new herb and it has spread throughout the known world. Other innovations, of what innovations they did make, was probably similar in vein or not thought of as innovation but recovery of old lost knowledge. Even if it was new.
The pace of innovation and invention in such a setting is longer and less noticeable. New things will take generations to adopt because they will be things like plants, animals and crafts that take that much time to truly adapt.

Also keep in mind that when the Fellowship wasn't going trough hidden, dangerous paths trough old parts of the world, they were heading into war-zones or worse. The best picture we ever saw of non-relic places was in the Shire, a bit of Rohan (and mostly royal intrigue) and what is essentially a tourist's view of Minas Tirith before the battle. We never really got to see measure well just how advanced stuff is.

[Gaidin]

Also, who manages to build two outrageously tall statues 300 yards from a waterfall in the middle of nowhere without innovation. I'm not sure when those were built, but were they really as old as the first war with Sauron and looking that good? I say, when you're fighting a constant war with Mordor(and/or Evil...pick your word...i think it came from multiple sources over time), cold or hot for that long, some methods of innovation sort of get put on hold for certain countries in certain areas. They're more worried about other things.

[Elheru Aran]

Much of Gondor's relics were either Second Age artifacts or built very shortly after the beginning of the Third Age, when it still had a lot of Numenorian knowledge laying around. Immediately after the war with Sauron, Mordor was-- if not straight up conquered, at least-- surrounded and considered 'safe'. The post-Numenoreans then were free to concentrate on recovery and regrowth of their civilization, and most of the massive building projects like the Argonath, Minas Tirith, Minas Morgul, etc. are from that period.

But part of the 'magic' in Tolkien seems to have a lot to do with longevity. Man liked his ancient artifacts. There's a distinct influence from Egypt and Rome again there-- he loved the imagery of remnants of ancient cultures that are still standing and present for future generations to admire and semi-venerate.

[Simon_Jester]

You know, as an engineer, I find Tolkein's descriptions of Numenorean technology a bit narrow-minded and offensive. There's absolutely no reason that a ship of metal which "goes without wind, and sinketh not in calm or storm" has to be ugly.

I grant this- but from a Watsonian perspective (ignoring Tolkien's intent as an author)...

Remember that medieval things whose creation was influenced by Sauron are also ugly. Sauron and his master Melkor are by nature corruptors. When they create humanoid beings, those humanoids are ugly and artless and vicious, lacking any faculty for art or beauty. It would hardly be a surprise if ships designed by him would have similar deficiencies.

And when we regard Tolkien's intent, remember that he grew up during an era when frankly, most of the products of the industrial world were rather ugly compared to the sort of green space you could find only a short distance from most cities and towns. Or, from a lot of people's point of view, compared to things like the old sailing ships.