I, for one, welcome our new Crow overlords

[wautd]

See to believe

I knew they were smart but damn

[Esquire]

Remind me why people think humans are the only intelligent animals on the planet, again? That's awesome, thanks for sharing.

[dragon]

That was cool also cool was the comment from Daniel Sureuz author of Kill Decision and Daemon

[Purple]

That is possibly the most awesome thing I have seen all week.

[madd0ct0r]

damn, I've seen portal levels that were easier.

[Broomstick]

...and that is why keeping things out of the beaks of my birds at home can be a bit of a challenge at times. Even if they are just parrots (I'm of the opinion that the ravens and crows are the smartest of the birds, followed by some of the parrots).

[Darmalus]

From what I've heard, bird brains are, pound for pound, some of the most compact and powerful brains on the planet. They are just stuck inside really tiny bodies.

[Bedlam]

From what I've heard, bird brains are, pound for pound, some of the most compact and powerful brains on the planet. They are just stuck inside really tiny bodies.

Tell that to an ostrich (Although they're not known for being smart).

[Napoleon the Clown]

...and that is why keeping things out of the beaks of my birds at home can be a bit of a challenge at times. Even if they are just parrots (I'm of the opinion that the ravens and crows are the smartest of the birds, followed by some of the parrots).

Ornithologists tend to agree with you. Corvids (crows, ravens, jays, magpies) are all smart little fuckers. The Eurasian magpie has actually passed the mirror test, and all of the corvids have been shown to figure shit out to some degree or another. Tool use in crows is surprisingly common, and if you've ever dealt with magpies you know how smart those little assholes are. It isn't hard to find them antagonizing a cat and "laughing" as the cat gets increasingly pissed off. They know exactly what they're doing.

This video didn't surprise me in the least. I've read about the antics of corvids before, so to see this level of problem solving isn't surprising at all. Hell, the little bastards warn each other about which humans mess with their nests. Which is why researchers now wear masks when studying anything that might irritate the birds. Little bastards will swoop by and peck at you if they decide they don't like you.

[Vendetta]

Crows aren't just tool users, they can also make simple tools, as seen in this video where a crow bends a piece of wire into a hook.

[PainRack]

While I don't recall the video, the information in this is at least several years old, right? I seem to recall seeing it before either here on SDN or on SB......

[LaCroix]

Please remember that we are talking about wide-spread small scale operation. As in rooftop/backyard.

Less mechanical stress - bollocks. Sorry, but bollocks. For a fair comparison, we're talking turbines with the equivalent capacity, which means the same swept area. This means the two turbines need to be about the same height, and since the VAWT I've seen keep their blades closer to the axis to avoid turbulence wobble, the VAWT would probably need to be taller. From the wind's point of view, both of them are cantilever towers sticking up into the wind. Max bending stress occurs at the base. That's not good for the VAWT, since that's where the turbine and bearings are. Generally speaking, it's a hell of a lot easier to design a fixed metal pole to resist bending then a freely rotating joint. There are VAWT designs that 'hang' the blades from the top of the mast, with the turbine just below, but that still puts the turbine in same position as the HAWT equivalent.
If we're talking about mechanical stress imparted onto the structure they're being fitted to, solar panels are going to win by a huge margin.

Well, for one, the VAWT doesn't have to turn into the wind, which removes one point of failure.
Second, because of the lack of the rotation mentioned above, it doesn't need slider contacts (or whatever) to transfer the generator energy to a static line.
Third, VAWT are operated with much lower masts than VAWT's, thus your claim of same height is wrong.
Generally, VAWT generators need much less maintennance than HAWT due to these differences.
Since you won't believe me, I'll simply cite the wikipedia article, you can read up the sources cited there on your own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_a ... d_turbines

Birdkill.

Proponents and inventors claim that VAWTs will kill fewer birds than HAWTs. As HAWT bird mortality rates are typically vastly overstated and are much less than fossil fuel generation, lighted windows, cats, transmission lines, cars and many other sources of avian mortality, this is a straw man argument. As VAWTs scaled up the utility generation capacity have not been built or compared for avian mortality, it’s a straw man argument without merit, similar to the noise problem.

from http://barnardonwind.com/2013/02/23/why ... e-popular/ - one of the best comparison sites for wind turbine design I've come across.

I'm willing to concede on the bird kill point, but measurements have proven that for same size, a VAWT is significantly less noisy (read - half or even less dBA than a HAWT), just for your infomation.

4) More efficient then solar. That kinda depends on your climate doesn't it? Like when I was living in Vietnam, sure there were breezes, but the amount of solar energy about was pretty extreme. I built a hot water system just by sandwiching a hosepipe between two sheets of corrugated steel. We're probably talking an efficiency of less then a 1%. The hosepipe melted Since you talked about at night and foggy days vs constant breezes, I'm going to guess you meant the word 'consistent'. Even that is interesting though, since electricity demand isn't consistent. another thread perhaps?

My fault, for one, I was referring to the "moderate climate" areas most people are arguing about when it comes to the question of "do solar panels make sense". For most moderate climates, like Europe or most of the USA, wind turbines do work better than solar, thus the big push to create them all over the countrysides in Europe, while solar power is practically non-existent.

Of course, in tropical areas, solar does generate a lot of power, but the question remains if it still wouldn't be more efficient to use wind power there? I have no idea how Vietnam is like regarding wind, but it's quite rare that an area has no air movement, especially when there is solar input. Wind is, after all, only a pressure exchange driven by solar input.

When I used "efficient", I was talking about average eficiency in therms of power production over time. ( I might have used the wrong term here, but I don't know what the correct term might be.) I was in part referring to the fact that since solar panels obviously only work at day, they per definition only achieve a maximum of 50% of their daily potential, compared to geothermal, water, or wind energy used in their place.

This on top of the fact that wind power usually operates in the 40% efficiency margin, while commercially available solar panels struggle to get 20% efficiency, which as well puts them at 50% of a wind turbine.

5) VAWT Operate in low wind - TRUE, and desperately needed since we're looking at turbines on structures here. This means very turbulent air, the worst kind for generating off, since a lot of the turbulent eddies cancel each other out in terms of moving the turbine. It's a crippling effceiny loss that is making it very hard for microturbines to be a sensible choice for retrofitting at this point.

This is actually another strenght of VAWT, they operate well in gusty winds or changing wind directions, as they don't need to correct their alignment, they already are aligned all the time...

[Highlord Laan]

Hell, I know people that can't solve simple eight-step puzzles.

[TOSDOC]

Hell, I know people that can't solve simple eight-step puzzles.

Did they do a comparison of people solving this puzzle alongside the birds? I can picture a few teenagers simply bashing the box open against the enclosure to get their candy bar out instead of resorting to their brains.

[TheFeniX]

Crows are pretty crazy. We know they can teach other flocks or successive generations to avoid "dangerous faces." Also of note is that they can recognize faces, at all. They also know when to scold you from a distance when danger is high and up close when danger is low.

There's been a lot of research into dogs over the past decade as well. For some reason, before that, there wasn't a lot of interest in the species even though their DNA is like Legos and their intelligence and ability to be trained far exceeds that of any other animal I can think of. I can only assume most biologists never owned dogs.

I hated the one time I went quail hunting, but the amount of precision between the 3 dogs used (1 coordinator and 2 flush dogs) was worth the price of admission itself. Mainly because I had never seen a dog give out orders and even physically move another dog to get him into a better position for flushing out the birds while constantly looking to the hunt master for instruction.

Seriously, you can train dogs to be middle management.

[madd0ct0r]

Please remember that we are talking about wide-spread small scale operation. As in rooftop/backyard.

Well, for one, the VAWT doesn't have to turn into the wind, which removes one point of failure.
Second, because of the lack of the rotation mentioned above, it doesn't need slider contacts (or whatever) to transfer the generator energy to a static line.
Third, VAWT are operated with much lower masts than VAWT's, thus your claim of same height is wrong.
Generally, VAWT generators need much less maintennance than HAWT due to these differences.

At this small scale, I'm not sure a HAWT actually needs slider contacts, just a loose bit of cable and a spring mount to stop it rotating in one direction too many times. But either way, I'm not convinced that VAWT have a maintenance advantage, or that the difference is significant in usage. We can point at different parts, but so many different designs have slightly different configurations it's going to get a bit messy.

3) VAWT's are operated with much lower masts - for the same power output? are you sure?

[LaCroix]

At this small scale, I'm not sure a HAWT actually needs slider contacts, just a loose bit of cable and a spring mount to stop it rotating in one direction too many times. But either way, I'm not convinced that VAWT have a maintenance advantage, or that the difference is significant in usage. We can point at different parts, but so many different designs have slightly different configurations it's going to get a bit messy.

3) VAWT's are operated with much lower masts - for the same power output? are you sure?

About maintenance - In general, most experts do cite an advantage in maintenance. Most are gearless drive, and many do have the actual generator at the bottom of the mast. Also, since their construction is self-limiting their maximum rotations, they usually fare better in high winds, which results in less repair needed after storms.

As you wrote above, VA designs suffer from having a high mast, so while HAWT are usually mounted with masts of ~12 to 18 m, VAWTs are usually mounted at "ground" level or a bit above (6 meter is deemed to be the optimum offset to ground to escape turbulence). Usually, they are mounted on hills or rooftops in order to have the "higher altitude" advantage, too. Still, a HA design of same nominal output will produce about 20% more energy if the conditions are optimal (steady winds with little turbulence).

General conclusion as far as I know is that VA are the optimum solution for rooftop placement, since they are quieter, do well with turbulence, and do not stand out that sorely(popular opinion does matter in such projects), while HA are the best thing to do if you are doing a wind park in a 'remote' location, as they are much more efficient and much easier to build in big scale.

[LadyTevar]

This is about Crows, not about Renewable Energy. I'm splitting the OT to another thread.

[Korvan]

As one of my dogs likes to chase crows, I've become sort of a persona non grata among the the neighborhood crows. They're smart enough to realize when my dog is on leash and won't waste energy getting away if they are just beyond the length of the leash. The ones I've seen in the city here are very cooperative. They'll openly advertise to other crows when they've found an ample food source and I've never seen crows fight other crows over food. Seen 'em gang up on eagles and ravens as well. Was interesting to see the size difference between crows and the raven. Hadn't seen a side by side comparison before.

[Enigma]

Years ago, one of my parents' cats liked to either hunt or harass birds, rodents and other small animals. It was hilarious to see one day, that cat lying down in the backyard, looking around frantically as the nearest telephone wire was filled with crows, all of them staring at the cat. They didn't attack him but put the fear of crow into him.

[StarSword]

There's a red-tailed hawk that hangs around the campus during the summer and we regularly see him flying the heck away from smaller birds like crows and sparrows that are dive-bombing him.

Years ago, one of my parents' cats liked to either hunt or harass birds, rodents and other small animals. It was hilarious to see one day, that cat lying down in the backyard, looking around frantically as the nearest telephone wire was filled with crows, all of them staring at the cat. They didn't attack him but put the fear of crow into him.

Mockingbirds'll do the same thing. My grandparents had a cat a long time ago that turned the tables. Minx would lie down near the mockingbird nest with her feet in the air, just to piss 'em off, and wait for them to start attacking her. And the mockingbirds are too pissed off at this point to realize that five of a cat's six ends are pointy when they lie like that. She would swat the bird clean out of the air and have it for dinner.

That was a mean kitty. Part Siamese, part Manx (they were trying to make a tailless Siamese, because genetics apparently work that way), and more attitude than any three pop divas combined. She hated literally everybody who wasn't Grandma Jan.

[Dominus Atheos]

Since this topic is open, here's a picture of a wild crow snowboarding:

[darth_timon]

That video is one of the best things I've seen in a long time. Certain birds are very clever and cunning- I remember seeing a video of what I think was a crow or raven that worked out when the traffic lights turned red it was safe for him to put a walnut in the middle of the road. He then sat on the lights when they went green, waited for them to go red again, and when they did, swept down and ate the cracked-open nut.