Game of Thrones Season 3 (Spoilers)

[Elfdart]

Jamie's scene with Brienne was so good he deserves an Emmy.

Here ya go:

[spaceviking]

Retreating to the North until spring may not win the war against the lan-Tyrel, but that is beyond their grasp anyway. It may however solidify their position as a separate Kingdom. I am not sure based on geography how far south they should try to hold onto.

[CaptHawkeye]

If in an ambitious mood, as far south as Riverrun. If in a smart mood? No further than the Twins or Moat Caillin. Abandoning his ally would not be awesome for Robb Stark's reputation but he could always offer amnesty and shelter to refugees. Riverlanders would probably be much better off in the North now anyway because the war has predominantly been fought in their nation and the crops that would have been stored for winter have been ruined.

Go back to the North, dig in, and wait to see if Tywin is content to pull a Napoleon. I doubt he would but the guy can be pretty obsessive when he wants to be.

[Thanas]

the problem is that if Robb concedes the south, this allows the Lannisters to finish of Stannis, who has no chance now that his fleet is gone. Once that is done, this allows the fleet to invade the north and harry their coastal cities. Will it be enough to defeat Robb? No, but it might cripple his economy, at which point one only needs to sow dissent amongst those nobles who already hate him or who will have suffered the most. Once the Lannisters secure a port in the north, that is pretty much it as Robb does not have the resources to fight the reconstituted armies of Tyrell, Lannisters etc. on two fronts.

[Mr Bean]

the problem is that if Robb concedes the south, this allows the Lannisters to finish of Stannis, who has no chance now that his fleet is gone. Once that is done, this allows the fleet to invade the north and harry their coastal cities. Will it be enough to defeat Robb? No, but it might cripple his economy, at which point one only needs to sow dissent amongst those nobles who already hate him or who will have suffered the most. Once the Lannisters secure a port in the north, that is pretty much it as Robb does not have the resources to fight the reconstituted armies of Tyrell, Lannisters etc. on two fronts.

Two problems with that
1. Stannis strength is in his fleets as something like 80% of the Royal Navy was in Stannis hands at the start of Game of Thrones
In fact it's a plot point that the Lannisters are having to fund all new ships to take Dragonstone. The Tyrells and Redwine have a fleet but even after Blackwater it's not a sure thing that Redwine will win a naval engagement.

2. Winter storms make naval invasion problematical of the north, it's another overlooked point that during Winters westeros is pretty much sealed off from Naval trade is storms in the area become the worst in the world. As in if you get caught in a storm it's not a question of if but when your ship is doomed to sink.

[spaceviking]

Also Tywin might want to fight the North till the end, but I doubt Tyrells care all that much about fighting for territory that contributes little to them and poses little to no threat to them directly.

[Thanas]

the problem is that if Robb concedes the south, this allows the Lannisters to finish of Stannis, who has no chance now that his fleet is gone. Once that is done, this allows the fleet to invade the north and harry their coastal cities. Will it be enough to defeat Robb? No, but it might cripple his economy, at which point one only needs to sow dissent amongst those nobles who already hate him or who will have suffered the most. Once the Lannisters secure a port in the north, that is pretty much it as Robb does not have the resources to fight the reconstituted armies of Tyrell, Lannisters etc. on two fronts.

Two problems with that
1. Stannis strength is in his fleets as something like 80% of the Royal Navy was in Stannis hands at the start of Game of Thrones
In fact it's a plot point that the Lannisters are having to fund all new ships to take Dragonstone. The Tyrells and Redwine have a fleet but even after Blackwater it's not a sure thing that Redwine will win a naval engagement.

I know because I specifically mentioned Stannis losing his fleet. Note that after Blackwater he is unable to contest Dragonstone.

2. Winter storms make naval invasion problematical of the north, it's another overlooked point that during Winters westeros is pretty much sealed off from Naval trade is storms in the area become the worst in the world. As in if you get caught in a storm it's not a question of if but when your ship is doomed to sink.

That is interesting. What is the source for that?

Besides, it is not like Tywinn can't wait for Winter to pass. The longer the war goes on, the more strength he has.

[spaceviking]

If in an ambitious mood, as far south as Riverrun. If in a smart mood? No further than the Twins or Moat Caillin. Abandoning his ally would not be awesome for Robb Stark's reputation but he could always offer amnesty and shelter to refugees. Riverlanders would probably be much better off in the North now anyway because the war has predominantly been fought in their nation and the crops that would have been stored for winter have been ruined.

Go back to the North, dig in, and wait to see if Tywin is content to pull a Napoleon. I doubt he would but the guy can be pretty obsessive when he wants to be.

I wonder how the riverlords would feel about that. Be a Lord in a destroyed land or a permanent guest of a Northern Lord.

[Imperial Overlord]

I wonder how the riverlords would feel about that. Be a Lord in a destroyed land or a permanent guest of a Northern Lord.

They would take the third option, go over to Tywin, if it was available. For the North, retreating is handing the Lannisters a victory. They're hard to crack in the North, but the South is five of the Seven Kingdoms and possesses far greater wealth and a much larger population.

[Patroklos]

Two problems with that
1. Stannis strength is in his fleets as something like 80% of the Royal Navy was in Stannis hands at the start of Game of Thrones
In fact it's a plot point that the Lannisters are having to fund all new ships to take Dragonstone. The Tyrells and Redwine have a fleet but even after Blackwater it's not a sure thing that Redwine will win a naval engagement.

That was before Blackwater Bay. The vast majority of Stannis's fleet was destroyed in Blackwater Bay. Not just his portion of the Royal fleet, but a good number of his mercenary fleet.

As you stated the Redwynes and the rest of the Tyrell fleet are the only real naval power outseide the Iron Islands at this point. I am not sure where you are getting the idea that the Redwynes are at all incapable of sweeping Stannis's remaining fleet. The reason for the delay was not the contruction of new warships (which were not done by the storming of Dragonstone), but rather the time it took for the Redwyne fleet to get to King's Landing after the Tyrells allied with the crown.
Spoiler

The royal fleet still loyal to crown was 10 galleys if I remember rightly, all lost in Blackwater Bay as well. We will also see that Stannis loses the rest of his remaining mercenaries when he heads North. The fact that Stannis could transport his remaining army North all the way to the wall later during the beginnings of winter with his rag tag fleet remnants with only a few lost ships in the process tells us a summer time naval invasion is more than possible.

It should be remembered also that Lannisport is supposed to be a naval center as well, I'm not sure what they have there though.

2. Winter storms make naval invasion problematical of the north, it's another overlooked point that during Winters westeros is pretty much sealed off from Naval trade is storms in the area become the worst in the world. As in if you get caught in a storm it's not a question of if but when your ship is doomed to sink.

I am curious how this was in real life nations in the extreme north during comparable levels of development. Were the baltic states and Scandinavia cut off during winter?

Also Tywin might want to fight the North till the end, but I doubt Tyrells care all that much about fighting for territory that contributes little to them and poses little to no threat to them directly.

I am sure that now that they have the Queen from their house they very much want to keep the kingdom as large and powerful as possible.

[Thanas]

I am curious how this was in real life nations in the extreme north during comparable levels of development. Were the baltic states and Scandinavia cut off during winter?

Depends upon the winter, but Stockholm was cut off sometimes. However, I am not sure if the baltic conditions are any indication for Westeros and vice versa. Probably not considering the uniqueness of the Baltic sea.

[spaceviking]

Well what is a westros winter supposed to be like? Is it years of straight winter or like a colder period, with fewer harvests. If it is years of straight winter I assume it would get worse than sweden.

[The Yosemite Bear]

my interpretation is that it's Ragnorok up north with new york/maine/chicogo down south.

[Spoonist]

I am curious how this was in real life nations in the extreme north during comparable levels of development. Were the baltic states and Scandinavia cut off during winter?

Depends upon the winter, but Stockholm was cut off sometimes. However, I am not sure if the baltic conditions are any indication for Westeros and vice versa. Probably not considering the uniqueness of the Baltic sea.

I'm in agreement with Thanas here, Westeros should be more like the north sea or somesuch than the baltic. Depends on the century as well, the climate has really changed throughout history.
Trade would definately close completely or be reduced to a minimum.
In the baltics that would depend on winds. Gulf of Bothnia, Gulf of Riga and Gulf of Finland has seen packed ice problems in some winters. Regularly in a historic sense but not necessarily common.
This is the Gulf of Bothnia in 2010. Sweden on the left Finland on the right.


This is the Gulf of Riga in 2003, it looked worse in 2010 but I couldn't find any good satellite images.
This is a Latvia image, so Estonia would be up in the north east of the gulf.


Then its the whole issue with 5-8 years of winter in westeros, that would definately build up ice that wouldnt thaw etc.


One of the most fameous winters in nordic history is the March over the Belts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_across_the_Belts
in 1658 where a Swedish army marched over the ice to reach the danish capitol which lies on an island.
But that was a really cold winter with the right wind conditions.

[Patroklos]

Invade over the ice...

Its at least an option for the Others.

[Lolpah]

Then again, it is possible that the fucked up seasons exist only in the continent of westeros, and not in the rest of the world. That would presumably make the effect on sea more limited, as warm currents from elsewhere would probably stop the sea from freezing over.

[The Yosemite Bear]

so what happens if the starks find the shattered trunk of the world tree?

looks like Ragnorok cranked up to 11 then?

[Mr Bean]

So the synopsis for Episodes 9 and 10 have been posted.
Spoiler

Short version, Episode 9 is one again a WTF episode as it is the Red Wedding episode. Episode 10 is Bran in the Nightfort the fallout from the Red Wedding and it looks like Mereen and Yunkai might be combined in the show which makes so sense since Astapor is sacked, Yunaki was made to bend the knee, and Mereen was taken. Leaving Yunaki free to plot which if Mereen and Yunkai are combined... well we will see next week

So no Purple wedding Spoiler

Joffery's

this season which means it's being saved for next Season because they are going to move it later on for timing purposes so we can meet the Red Viper and spend time with them during Season 4. Which means I'm guessing Spoiler

Episode 9 next season will be the Red Viper VS the Mountain

[Ahriman238]

They couldn't exactly do the Wedding, then fade to black- see you next year. They'd probably shed viewers like flies.

[Crown]

They couldn't exactly do the Wedding, then fade to black- see you next year. They'd probably shed viewers like flies.

I was hoping they would do exactly that with the last scene being;
Spoiler

Clegane swinging his axe at Arya's head and the last shot blacks out as she collapses

Just to see the people who haven't read the books go absolutely fucking mental!

[fgalkin2]

And shed viewers like flies. And not get renewed after the next season shows a ratings drop

Damn, what did GoT ever do to you?

Have a very nice day
-fgalkin

[Crown]

And shed viewers like flies. And not get renewed after the next season shows a ratings drop

Damn, what did GoT ever do to you?

Have a very nice day
-fgalkin

Your supposition does not equate to fact. Hope I didn't reveal any Earth-shattering truths to you just then. You okay bro?

[Flagg]

Ros! No!

Loved the voiceover by Baelish.

[Mr Bean]

Man episode six 5/5 Spoiler

Ding Dong the Ros is dead. For me Ros came to represent everything that book readers hated about the adaptation. She was a symbol of the hate because of what she symbolized... the things from the book that were cut. Every time we saw Ros and every minute she spent on screen came to represent every .01 second less book content we got. The added scenes mostly came across as "things that happened but we did not hear about". The shrinking in cast was just a accepted cost of only have 10 episodes per season. But Ros? Ros was invented for the show and every time we saw her she meant that the scenes between Sansa and the Hound, or more of the buddy cop movie between Jamie and Brienee or entire plot lines like the Magna of Thene had been condensed down. Meaning unless we get another all new character rather than a retitling or condensing (Like Locke) most of the hate will be appeased.


And lets be honest to get pay-off a season later for Littlefinger telling Ros that story about the poor sad whore... and to have Ros end up the exact same way at Joffery's hands? The only thing that could have made that better was for Joffery to be getting off on it.

[fgalkin]

I am happy that they have given Ros a proper character arc and an actual role to play before they killed her off. Varys promising her protection, that scene with Littlefinger from "The Night Lands," all of it actually was significant to her story.

Farewell, Ros, you lived a collection of profitable holes, but died a Character.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin