Game of Thrones Season 3 (Spoilers)

[Scrib]

Of course he is. It's was all a big manipulation to get Edmure to marry someone else to redeem himself-i.e. fix Robb's mess. If Robb wants something done he can bloody well let his lieutenants know. Now, granted, if Blackfish's behavior is anything to go by the King's court doesn't have a high opinion of Edmure but this is totally on the,

In the series...I think it's gonna play out the exact same way.

Eh, I think they were legitimately pissed at Edmure for fucking up their plan to catch Tywin. But yeah, it should have been very obvious that Edmure would ignore orders and hare off on his own if he thought he saw a good reason to do so. And if Robb didn't know him well enough to realize that the Blackfish damned well should have. Part of being a good leader is know one's people, after all.

Oh, he could have been legitimately pissed, he might have been. But I that's a convenient emotion to have, one that perfectly fits his current need. So he has no reason to see sense temper his words.

He might be miffed, but he's milking it for his own benefit, both by emotionally manipulating Edmure and using his anger to make it seem fair.

[Vympel]

The bad audio was a bad rip for the torrent folk, the song only plays during the credits, did like that they did a more traditional version during the episode with the Brotherhood.

I watch a torrent as well (I get mine through direct download on a forum though) - I remember now, the version I got had a note in the thread that the previously uploaded version fucked up at the end. I always wait a few hours before downloading anything, precisely because some rips are sloppily done.

[Ralin]

Oh, he could have been legitimately pissed, he might have been. But I that's a convenient emotion to have, one that perfectly fits his current need. So he has no reason to see sense temper his words.

He might be miffed, but he's milking it for his own benefit, both by emotionally manipulating Edmure and using his anger to make it seem fair.

From what I remember the wedding proposal came a good while after Blackfish and Robb chewed Edmure out in the book? Yeah they bring it up to guilt Edmure into going along with the wedding later, but I think saying it "was all a big manipulation" is exaggerating.

[loomer]

The bad audio was a bad rip for the torrent folk, the song only plays during the credits, did like that they did a more traditional version during the episode with the Brotherhood.

I watch a torrent as well (I get mine through direct download on a forum though) - I remember now, the version I got had a note in the thread that the previously uploaded version fucked up at the end. I always wait a few hours before downloading anything, precisely because some rips are sloppily done.

I'll be honest. I've been tempted from time to time to try and quickly edit and then re-up copies of GoT or True Blood that have a little counter pop-up in the corner every time there's gratuitous nudity, maybe with the words 'This is HBO.' and see if people notice.

[CaptHawkeye]

Eh, I think they were legitimately pissed at Edmure for fucking up their plan to catch Tywin. But yeah, it should have been very obvious that Edmure would ignore orders and hare off on his own if he thought he saw a good reason to do so. And if Robb didn't know him well enough to realize that the Blackfish damned well should have. Part of being a good leader is know one's people, after all.

Yeah but if it was a plan, Edmure should have been in on it from the start. He had a roll to play after all and Robb seriously tried to absolve himself by saying "I was EVENTUALLY going to tell you about my plan." Timidity and caution doesn't win wars and while impulsivity doesn't either, Robb should have told Edmure to fall back. Not whomp him on details he couldn't possibly have known.

Of course according to the book types it sounds like Robb is intentionally setting up poor ol Ed as a scapegoat. I'm starting to see Robb is quite the tactician, but he's no Eisenhower. More like a Patton, really good at setting up and organizing battles but not so good at diplomacy and politics.

[Terralthra]

That's how he's depicted in the books, too. Every success he has diplomatically is entirely due to Catelyn and Brynden's influence.

[Ralin]

Of course according to the book types it sounds like Robb is intentionally setting up poor ol Ed as a scapegoat. I'm starting to see Robb is quite the tactician, but he's no Eisenhower. More like a Patton, really good at setting up and organizing battles but not so good at diplomacy and politics.

He managed to get all of his father's bannermen, including people like Greatjon Umber and Roose Bolton, to obey him and resisted all attempts to bully, browbeat or sweet talk him in the process. At the age of sixteen. Fourteen in the books! I'd say he clearly has some political skills.

He also did manage to handle the Freys diplomatically at first, even if he did fuck that arrangement up later on, and had a good enough head for diplomacy to know he needed to publically kiss Lord Frey's ass if he was going to have any chance of fixing that.

Sure he technically didn't win the Freys over himself, but he was savvy enough to send someone who could and did make the arrangements, and he signed off on them.

[Scrib]

He managed to get all of his father's bannermen, including people like Greatjon Umber and Roose Bolton, to obey him and resisted all attempts to bully, browbeat or sweet talk him in the process. At the age of sixteen. Fourteen in the books! I'd say he clearly has some political skills.

[/quote]He was able to handle his father's bannermen because no one in their right mind had any intention of causing disruption on a mission to rescue their beloved liege lord. Granted he held them together later but he already had a base to work with. It also helps that he won a big victory that made the Lannisters seem weak and had allies (won by his father and mother) so everyone was optimistic.

He did hold everyone together after the disastrous and unprecedented loss of Winterfell though (well, almost everyone) so you gotta give him that. He just had a headstart.

He also did manage to handle the Freys diplomatically at first, even if he did fuck that arrangement up later on, and had a good enough head for diplomacy to know he needed to publicly kiss Lord Frey's ass if he was going to have any chance of fixing that.

Sure he technically didn't win the Freys over himself, but he was savvy enough to send someone who could and did make the arrangements, and he signed off on them.

Cat handled Lord Frey. She maneuvered around his pettiness.I don't think it takes a lot of savvy to send a riverlands woman to win a riverlander.

But Walder was probably always gonna let them through, it was just a matter of setting the stage for the haggling. He has every reason to do so, he knows Robb plan, and he can rifle through his pockets in exchange for him doing what was expected of him,and now he has a Lord Paramount as a relative to balance out how pissed Hoster Tully was going to be. Unless someone said something extremely stupid they could always work something out.

As for him knowing that he needed to kiss Walder's ass...that's called common sense. You don't get points for breaking the cookie jar and realizing that you mom is going to be mad. Simply losing 4500 men should make it clear to anyone with basic math skills that they are in trouble. If Robb had known and avoided the problems of his marriage he'd get props, but he didn't. Because he's an idiot.

Speaking of which, he's done little on that front anyways.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The onlything I could picture that would be funnier than Pod becoming a sex god, is if a Duncan Idaho ghola started giving him lessons....

[CaptHawkeye]

If Robb had known and avoided the problems of his marriage he'd get props, but he didn't. Because he's an idiot.

Speaking of which, he's done little on that front anyways.

I still don't get why he couldn't just tell Jayne to hold off until the end of the war. Let him promise the Frey girl so Walder will stop bitching and go back to his bingo tournaments.

When he wins he can just come back later and absolutely flatten House Frey for being disloyal. Frey is pledged to House Tully, the de facto ally of the Starks. Obstructing Robb's Army during a critical juncture of the war doesn't even require a spin. It was just flat out treason. If Frey wasn't going to honor his word, why should Robb?

Oh wait, because Robb, much like his father, is a total sucker for tradition. Ned was a good guy but he favored Stannis for King just because it was the natural succession. Renly was 100% right about his brother, no one wanted him to be their King.

[PKRudeBoy]

As far as dealing with the Frey's goes, I think they were handled incredibly poorly from the outset. Lord Walder Frey was defying his liege lord (again) and extorting a marriage out of his liege's grandson. I say pretend to agree to his demands then hang him from the bridge once the army is in the castle. Hell his heir has been waiting for him to die for decades, he'll probably thank you.

[Scrib]

^^Yeah. That's exactly what'll happen. See above for how things work in Westeros. And yeah, highly risky fighting Walder in his own city.

If Robb had known and avoided the problems of his marriage he'd get props, but he didn't. Because he's an idiot.

Speaking of which, he's done little on that front anyways.

I still don't get why he couldn't just tell Jayne to hold off until the end of the war. Let him promise the Frey girl so Walder will stop bitching and go back to his bingo tournaments.

When he wins he can just come back later and absolutely flatten House Frey for being disloyal. Frey is pledged to House Tully, the de facto ally of the Starks. Obstructing Robb's Army during a critical juncture of the war doesn't even require a spin. It was just flat out treason. If Frey wasn't going to honor his word, why should Robb?

Oh wait, because Robb, much like his father, is a total sucker for tradition. Ned was a good guy but he favored Stannis for King just because it was the natural succession. Renly was 100% right about his brother, no one wanted him to be their King.

Well, assuming he wins. Then he can come back and try. After he had given his word and his daughter to the Freys. And with enough help from the Tullys he could probably take the castle. But he better hope that he has enough men left and that no one capitalises and that he can take the castle during winter.

[Vympel]

As Lord Frey rightly noted, he also has a sworn oath to the crown. Him letting Robb through was treason as well, from a different angle. Like Jaime said - too many oaths.

And yeah, highly risky fighting Walder in his own city.

Well the Freys don't have a city, they have the Twins and the surrounding lands, which is a fairly strong castle (two castles, really).

[spaceviking]

Or they would have to fight the frey's to the last. So even if they win easily they kill a few thousand troops rather than gain them. Also now every time he sieges an enemy castle they will never surrender. If Rob killed Lord Frey, what does that mean for his enemies.

[PKRudeBoy]

Robb's army at the time he was crossing outnumbered the total bannermen of the Frey's 5 to 1. Nowhere near the Frey's total forces would be at the Twins, and the hardest part of a siege is generally getting in in the first place. If he pretended to agree to Walder's terms, they would have no trouble whatsoever in taking the Twins once the doors have been opened for them. The Frey's are also shown to be one of the houses with the most intrahouse conflict since Walder has so many children who all want a cut of the action, so finding someone who will swear loyalty after killing the ones who don't shouldn't be too hard. Now, Robb wouldn't do this, because he seems to have inherited his fathers total lack of common sense, but I think it would have been a more effective solution. Hell, storming the place would have been a more effective solution long term given what happens.

Or they would have to fight the frey's to the last. So even if they win easily they kill a few thousand troops rather than gain them. Also now every time he sieges an enemy castle they will never surrender. If Rob killed Lord Frey, what does that mean for his enemies.

Why on earth would they have to fight the Frey's to the last? I think you're assuming far to much loyalty on the part of a house that is shown to be in the top tier of self serving families in Westeros, which is no mean feat. And as far as what it means for his enemies, absolutely nothing. Frey is known for being utterly opportunistic and up until the marriage was negotiated, was refusing to send his men to his liege lord, who had already called his banners to defend against Tywin.

[spaceviking]

Walder Frey may be hated by his family, but they are clearly loyal to him. No one has murdered him, despite his death being easy to hide. And, despite Frey's reputation being know as the king that was invited into the twins and killed the Lord, would not look good.

[PKRudeBoy]

Eh, Tywin Lannister did far worse with the Sack of Kings Landing, and his reputation survived just fine. I'd say the closest thing to compare it to would be what happened to the Reynes and the Tarbecks, which if anything boosted Tywins reputation. Furthermore, it wouldn't violate the laws of hospitality unless they partook of bread and salt, which since they're only crossing the bridge, probably wouldn't happen.

[spaceviking]

Good point, people tend to forget these actions if you are successful. Though I bet the Tyrel's would think twice before letting a Lannister army into highgarden.

[Scrib]

Uh, no it is not like the Sack of King's Landing at all. Robb would be agreeing to terms, accepting guest right (which is exactly what he did, technicalities or no) then fucking Walder Frey up the ass (and keep in mind there are two castles so he'd need to take both or fight Frey on the bridge so the casualties will be bad) this is completely against the Westerosi taboo. And when one isn't trustworthy how do you take castles? Look at what happened to Jaime and Stannis when they tried to take castles from people who didn't trust them to honor terms. As for making allies...yeah.

And no one forgot about Tywin's sack. They just can't do anything about it now. Tywin's death was ill attended because of this.

[spaceviking]

Not based on the last episode, but the one before it.... I think Margery is going to kill Joffrey on a hunt, and make it look like he killed himself by accident.

[PKRudeBoy]

Technicalities are precisely what matters when you're talking about guest right in Westeros, in fact this is the reason that when entering potentially hostile places the very first thing that characters do is ask for bread and salt, as it is not until they have been given them that guest right applies. Frey could already be classified as an oathbreaker possibly either way depending exactly how feudal vows in the Seven Kingdoms work. But vassals generally can't extort their liege's allies in return for doing their duty, and the fact that Robb was taking his army through the Twins for the sole purpose of relieving Frey's liege would count heavily against Lord Walder.

Practically, can he extort Robb? Clearly, but any agreement like that would be made in bad faith and he should fully expect to be thoroughly smote.

[Guardsman Bass]

As Lord Frey rightly noted, he also has a sworn oath to the crown. Him letting Robb through was treason as well, from a different angle. Like Jaime said - too many oaths.

Walder Frey really just had no good options when Robb showed up with his army back in season one/Game of Thrones. He could

1. Let Robb pass without joining him, which would piss off his liege lord while still getting himself labeled as a traitor, and possibly signaling to his vassals that he's a push-over.

2. Let Robb pass while joining him, at which point he might as well negotiate for whatever concessions he can get since he'll be labeled as a traitor.

3. Stand against Robb, thus being a traitor to his Tully liege and getting left to be slaughtered by Robb (Tywin would totally leave him hanging to bleed Robb's host).

4. Flee the area, thus vacating his seat of power and establishing himself as a pushover (assuming one of his sons doesn't take the chance to do him in). And of course, he's a very old man and doesn't travel easily.

[Scrib]

I don't mind your conclusions but how is Robb gonna slaughter Walder? Look at the books: it's literally said:"We cannot besiege this castle". Not only was it heavily fortified and filled with Walder's bannermen, no one could invest the castle from the other side so it was pointless. And Walder sent Robb off to Whispering Wood with 4500 men, about a fourth of Robb's men. And these are men on the wall, with defensive fortifications etc.

Sure, Walder doesn't want to piss off Hoster but if he had just blocked off his bridge Robb would either assault him and fail, showing his hand to Tywin or have to turn and face a numerically superior army or retreat to Cailin, killing any chance to build momentum while Tywin keeps an eye on him and Jaime attacks the riverlords. Robb would have been fucked or at the very least set back enough that his entire secession could be butterflied away or at least limited to northmen.

[CaptHawkeye]

Yeah much importance was given to getting into battle against Jaime's Army before Tywin was near. Their forces were split and Robb had a major strategic opportunity. He couldn't spend too much time or too many men dealing with Walder Frey and the guest right prevents him from just betraying Frey right then and there. He needed to pass the Twins right away so he could surprise Jaime.

When the war was over, Robb would be free to do whatever he wanted to the Freys.

[Scrib]

Technicalities are precisely what matters when you're talking about guest right in Westeros, in fact this is the reason that when entering potentially hostile places the very first thing that characters do is ask for bread and salt, as it is not until they have been given them that guest right applies. Frey could already be classified as an oathbreaker possibly either way depending exactly how feudal vows in the Seven Kingdoms work. But vassals generally can't extort their liege's allies in return for doing their duty, and the fact that Robb was taking his army through the Twins for the sole purpose of relieving Frey's liege would count heavily against Lord Walder.

Practically, can he extort Robb? Clearly, but any agreement like that would be made in bad faith and he should fully expect to be thoroughly smote.

Uh, the bread and salt is a precaution but we are talking about Robb negotiating in good faith and then breaking the rules while in someone's house. Is he going to drive all his men in, refuse bread and salt and attack? That's be shitty enough, but after he's betrothed to Lord Walder? Extra shitty.

Robb doesn't get to have things all his own way. Tough shit for him but there it is. It's like Joffrey and Cersei's conversation in the first season where Joff says wants to crush any rebellious lord for looking at him strange. Cersei just points out that he's not an absolute ruler and needs to use diplomacy in case he ever needs an army . And this is the Baratheon dynasty at the height of it's power, with four of the seven kingdoms tightly bound and another well in hand. It's not about a secessionist movement that hit it's high point and one other hill and just rolled downhill.

And Walder is clearly right to be worried. The king is dead and it's implicitly understood that the new king is working with Tywin. Rebelling is treason and helping rebels is treason. Especially since Robb really has no case. His dad did try to seize the throne, this is a "I hate and distrust Lannisters" thing. It is to the benefit of the highlords to make treason against them a more immediate threat than to the crown but some people are gonna try to play the game.