Yoda and Obi-Wan's endgame?

[The Kernel]

I was digging a trench in my yard and a thought popped into my head randomly about Star Wars--I can't for the life of me figure out what the hell Yoda and Obi-Wan were trying to accomplish training Luke. Let me explain.

We know from the prequel trilogy that both Yoda and Obi-Wan knew exactly how powerful Palpatine was. He killed several Jedi Masters in one-on-many combat, defeated Yoda and was only able to be subdued by Mace Windu who was supposedly the most skilled Jedi Master in the order in lightsaber combat. And clearly it takes decades to reach a skill level approaching this whereas Luke's training was rushed at best.

Ok, so it's clear that if Luke were to face Palpatine there are three possible outcomes:

1) Luke is tempted enough by Palpatine's offer to turn to the dark side and join him. This makes the problem Yoda and Obi-Wan are trying to solve even worse.

2) Luke is able to resist the Emperor's attempt to turn him. Palpatine kills Luke.

3) Luke is able to resist the Emperor and he kills Palpatine and Vader.

From past experience they should know that #3 is infeasible given Luke's skill level. He simply cannot be expected to have killed both of them unless there was some sort of suicide mission in play (but then you don't need a Jedi in order to do such a thing so that wouldn't make any sense). Furthermore although #2 is the most likely outcome, #1 is more likely than #3 (especially with the whole family history thing) and so from a pure risk analysis standpoint it makes no sense to send Luke after the two of them.

So what exactly were Obi-Wan and Yoda trying to achieve? Neither of them seemed to believe that turning Vader back was realistic (Obi-Wan outright dismissed the possibility of this and Yoda didn't foreshadow it either) so what exactly were they trying to accomplish by training Luke to confront Vader and the Emperor? No matter how much skill they gave him they would know he was completely unprepared to fight Palpatine and he would get bitch slapped (which is exactly what happened) and he should have died had it not been for the intervention of Vader.

So yeah, I can't figure out their motives here at all. Before the prequels came out this whole thing made sense since we weren't sure what Yoda and Obi-Wan knew about the Emperor or his powers but after the prequels demonstrated that Yoda had first hand knowledge of exactly how powerful Palpatine was none of this makes any sense.

[Knife]

I really don't think Yoda, nor Obi Wan, had a concrete plan such as a to b to c to restore everything the way it was. If you take the novel of RotS, it goes on about how Yoda had an epiphany about Jedi and Sith. The Jedi were stagnant, Yoda himself trained the Jedi to be like the Jedi who trained him, in such, the Jedi trained to fight the last war. Meanwhile, he admits to himself that the Sith had evolved.

Perhaps his 'plan' was more of keeping the Hope alive, keep not only a Force sensitive child (children) out of reach of the Emperor, but also the progeny of Anakin and Padme. Granted, 20 years late he seems to have evolved his plan to try to take out Vader. Vader, though, seems like a soft target really. Vader is a Classically trained Jedi, true, so Yoda knows the weaknesses and strengths of that. He is also Sith. But... he is also very broken and lives in an armored life support suit. While Vader can assrape any normal guy he's up against, a trained Jedi would stand a decent chance against an old cripple in a suit. I really don't think Yoda had a plan of 'Luke can beat Vader, then turn his attension to Palpy' plan going.

[The Kernel]

But Yoda DID know that confronting Vader also meant confronting the Emperor. After all, he gave Luke a warning about not underestimating the Emperor's powers on his deathbed and also said before Luke went to Bespin that "only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the force as his ally can conquer Vader AND HIS EMPEROR...". That sounds like Yoda actually expected Luke to defeat Palpatine as well.

I have no issue with the idea that Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted to keep the kids away from the Emperor. But I still see no endgame at all around training them to use the force and fight when they were much more likely to just become Dark Jedi or best case to end up roasted by force lightning (oh and a special thanks to Yoda for not mentioning that whole shooting lightning bolts stuff...that might have come in handy if he had mentioned it)

[Napoleon the Clown]

Who says they actually had a proper plan and weren't just so desperate that they'd try anything? If Luke failed they still had Leiah, after all. And they'd probably take their time better with her.

Actually, I don't remember that they trained Luke and told him "Go fight the Emperor and Vader now, you'll save the galaxy." Telling him that he must defeat the Emperor sure, but never with a time frame. Telling him to not underestimate Palpatine was basically just that. Whenever he went off to defeat the Emperor don't underestimate him.

Though the implication was still there. Either way, the desperation bit can still work.

[The Kernel]

Who says they actually had a proper plan and weren't just so desperate that they'd try anything? If Luke failed they still had Leiah, after all. And they'd probably take their time better with her.

Is this a joke? Luke was expendable because they had Leia? How was Leia going to be more successful?

Actually, I don't remember that they trained Luke and told him "Go fight the Emperor and Vader now, you'll save the galaxy." Telling him that he must defeat the Emperor sure, but never with a time frame.

What timeframe could possibly be realistic for a straight up confrontation? And Yoda DID say "no more training do you require" to Luke so clearly he had given him everything he thought he needed.

Between his fleet and his force powers Palpatine was nearly invulnerable. Training Luke to try and fight him head on was a stupid plan with a predictable outcome (prevented only through Vader's redemption)--for an example of a SMART way to handle this exact situation you can see how the Second Foundation handled the Mule in the Foundation books (hint: it was through subversion and deceit, not through straight up power duels).

Telling him to not underestimate Palpatine was basically just that. Whenever he went off to defeat the Emperor don't underestimate him.

Yeah, that's so helpful of Yoda. Don't underestimate a guy who can throw around force lightning (which we won't tell you about ahead of time since that would ruin the surprise) and who bitchslapped me personally when I tried to do him in despite centuries of training on my part. But I'm sure a few months of rushed Jedi training taught Luke everything he needed to know.

Though the implication was still there. Either way, the desperation bit can still work.

They had decades to come up with a better plan. That was the best two Jedi Masters could come up with?

[madd0ct0r]

there was no plan - they merely wished to give Luke his best chance at surviving in the hostile universe?

[The Kernel]

Bullshit. What did you think Obi-Wan meant when he said "That boy is our last hope..."?

[Havok]

Because Obi-Wan is sexist? Maybe because he sat on Tatooine only worrying about Luke for like 20 years. Who knows.

The idea that Yoda sat in Dagobah for 20+ years not feeling available aspects of what may happen is pretty dumb. Yeah, he couldn't see the future like he was able to before, but clearly he was still able to see multiple outcomes of given events.

Their plan? Luke was to confront Vader in hopes of putting the Chosen One back on the path he should have been on before his fall.

Option #3 was never an option. Option #3 should read: Luke turns Vader and Vader kills Palpatine.
Out of universe, GL has stated that only Anakin could kill Palpatine. Luke could never kill Palpatine. Translate that to in-universe and you have to give some credit that Obi-Wan and Yoda knew this. When they speak of the other (we know it wasn't Leia at that point) they aren't talking about another shot at defeating Palpatine, they are talking about another shot at defeating Vader and seeing what happens.

Yoda's view of what a Jedi should be had completely shifted from the time of ROTS to ROTJ. When he says "already know, that which you need" he is saying that you have the martial tools that a Jedi needs, but that you still need to face YOURSELF (as was ridiculously hamfistedly foreshadowed in TESB) and that whatever decision Luke made in doing so would be what ultimately made him a Jedi. But not Yoda's Jedi, new Jedi for a new age.

It is ironic that the person to anoint the first of the new Jedi is the last Sith Lord.

[Knife]

True, I subscribe to the notion of Palpatine being the cure of the stagnant Republic, and Vader being the cure for the cure. Luke's job was to just push Vader a bit out the door. Yoda and Obi Wan may have an inkling of that, thanks to 20 years of chatting with Qui Gon, but I don't think it's a rock solid thing with them.

[Channel72]

Their plan? Luke was to confront Vader in hopes of putting the Chosen One back on the path he should have been on before his fall.

This would be a nice retcon, except for the fact that the OT pretty much explicitly rules out this as a possible description of Obi-Wan and Yoda's strategy. As The Kernel said, Obi-Wan outright dismisses the idea of redeeming Vader ("he's more machine now than man..."), and Yoda never even brings it up. As far as we can gather from the OT dialogue, the plan was to kill Vader (and by extension, Palpatine.) It's only Luke's strong belief in the good inside Vader (against Obi-Wan's advice) that makes Luke believe redemption is possible.

A better question is why any Jedi involvement at all is necessary to bring down Palpatine. The Rebel attack on Endor to blow up the DS2 doesn't require any Jedi skill (in the way that targeting the exhaust port on the DS1 probably did). So really, Palpatine might have died anyway if Luke just stayed home or helped out with the mission to blow up the shield generator.

[Captain Seafort]

A better question is why any Jedi involvement at all is necessary to bring down Palpatine. The Rebel attack on Endor to blow up the DS2 doesn't require any Jedi skill (in the way that targeting the exhaust port on the DS1 probably did). So really, Palpatine might have died anyway if Luke just stayed home or helped out with the mission to blow up the shield generator.

That assumes that any of that would have happened with Palpatine still alive. Without the chaos and confusion of his death and its effect on the Force, the likelihood is that Wedge and the Falcon would have been shot down before they reached the reactor.

[Channel72]

That assumes that any of that would have happened with Palpatine still alive. Without the chaos and confusion of his death and its effect on the Force, the likelihood is that Wedge and the Falcon would have been shot down before they reached the reactor.

Yeah, I've heard these handwavy ideas that Palpatine used his Force Powers to instill confidence into the Imperial fleet, and that they all panicked and became incompetent when he died or something. Nothing in the movie really suggests this happened, so I guess it's EU stuff.

[Captain Seafort]

Yeah, I've heard these handwavy ideas that Palpatine used his Force Powers to instill confidence into the Imperial fleet, and that they all panicked and became incompetent when he died or something. Nothing in the movie really suggests this happened, so I guess it's EU stuff.

It's not the battle meditation per se that I'm talking about, but the direct effects of Palpatine's death, which appears to have stunned the Imperial forces. It's also direct from the novelisation, rather than the EU:

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this non-directed - this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear.

[The Kernel]

Their plan? Luke was to confront Vader in hopes of putting the Chosen One back on the path he should have been on before his fall.

This would be a nice retcon, except for the fact that the OT pretty much explicitly rules out this as a possible description of Obi-Wan and Yoda's strategy. As The Kernel said, Obi-Wan outright dismisses the idea of redeeming Vader ("he's more machine now than man..."), and Yoda never even brings it up. As far as we can gather from the OT dialogue, the plan was to kill Vader (and by extension, Palpatine.) It's only Luke's strong belief in the good inside Vader (against Obi-Wan's advice) that makes Luke believe redemption is possible.

Exactly so. And it's insulting to think that Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that there was even a remote chance of redeeming Vader since it was Luke being the sole person who could see it that made it such a good dramatic element in the first place.

And of course, all this was fine in the context of the OT only. We don't really know how much Yoda and Obi-Wan know about the Emperor and his powers. But thanks to the prequels, we have canon established fact that both of them knew that Luke would never have the ability to kill Palpatine no matter what and that any plan to do so certainly doesn't require a straight up fight with a Jedi.

[Havok]

Their plan? Luke was to confront Vader in hopes of putting the Chosen One back on the path he should have been on before his fall.

This would be a nice retcon, except for the fact that the OT pretty much explicitly rules out this as a possible description of Obi-Wan and Yoda's strategy. As The Kernel said, Obi-Wan outright dismisses the idea of redeeming Vader ("he's more machine now than man..."), and Yoda never even brings it up. As far as we can gather from the OT dialogue, the plan was to kill Vader (and by extension, Palpatine.) It's only Luke's strong belief in the good inside Vader (against Obi-Wan's advice) that makes Luke believe redemption is possible.

A better question is why any Jedi involvement at all is necessary to bring down Palpatine. The Rebel attack on Endor to blow up the DS2 doesn't require any Jedi skill (in the way that targeting the exhaust port on the DS1 probably did). So really, Palpatine might have died anyway if Luke just stayed home or helped out with the mission to blow up the shield generator.

Yes and Obi-Wan is a paragon of truth when it comes to Luke.
I watch that now with hindsight knowing that Obi-Wan knows that Luke is the type of person that needs that nudge to get him going. Just like his father. It is essentially, "Neener neener you can't redeem him pppbbbttttt!!!"

That dialogue is also very ambiguous, go figure...
Luke: Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.
Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Luke is not dissuaded from the idea of redemption in the slightest. Obi-Wan and Yoda clearly know that, they say go kill him, but Luke is like nope and has every intention of redeeming him or die trying. Obi-Wan is also not making much of an argument either.

In fact if you look at the chain of events... Luke goes to rescue his friends in TESB with Obi-Wan and Yoda begging him to not go. Why? Because he doesn't know the truth of who Vader is and he has the raw power to kill him. If he does that then the Emperor wins. Only with the knowledge of Vader being his father, that Yoda had every intention of telling him when he was ready, did they want him to face him. Why? That knowledge is certain to make Luke second guess killing Vader and could make him hesitate at the most crucial moment. If you are just making Luke a weapon to kill Vader and Palpatine, you certainly don't want the emotion of knowing he is killing his father getting in the way.

The only thing that makes actual sense is that they either want Luke to redeem Vader or sacrifice himself in the process and hope that losing that last bit of himself will be too much to bear for Vader/Anakin and he turns on the Emperor and fulfills his destiny. In-universe, minus what GL has said, either Skywalker fits the bill of the Chosen One.

There is no retconn needed.

[Havok]

Their plan? Luke was to confront Vader in hopes of putting the Chosen One back on the path he should have been on before his fall.

This would be a nice retcon, except for the fact that the OT pretty much explicitly rules out this as a possible description of Obi-Wan and Yoda's strategy. As The Kernel said, Obi-Wan outright dismisses the idea of redeeming Vader ("he's more machine now than man..."), and Yoda never even brings it up. As far as we can gather from the OT dialogue, the plan was to kill Vader (and by extension, Palpatine.) It's only Luke's strong belief in the good inside Vader (against Obi-Wan's advice) that makes Luke believe redemption is possible.

Exactly so. And it's insulting to think that Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that there was even a remote chance of redeeming Vader since it was Luke being the sole person who could see it that made it such a good dramatic element in the first place.

And of course, all this was fine in the context of the OT only. We don't really know how much Yoda and Obi-Wan know about the Emperor and his powers. But thanks to the prequels, we have canon established fact that both of them knew that Luke would never have the ability to kill Palpatine no matter what and that any plan to do so certainly doesn't require a straight up fight with a Jedi.

So according to you, there is no chance to redeem Vader in Obi-Wan and Yoda's eyes AND they do not think there is any chance that Luke, if he kills Vader, can defeat Palpatine. Correct?


So.. if Obi-Wan and Yoda know that Luke can not defeat Palpatine, as fact, then they most certainly are sending Luke with the intention of redeeming Vader, because even if he kills him, Palpatine, according to you, will decimate Luke. So what is the point of sending Luke at all unless it is to unleash Anakin Skywalker back onto the scene?

You can't have it both ways. Either Luke can kill Palpatine after killing Vader, which you claim is not possible, or Luke has to be able to redeem Vader and Yoda and Obi-Wan know this, because, again, according to you, just killing Vader accomplishes nothing, so Vader must be redeemed so that he can kill Palpatine, because Luke can't. But you claim that that can not possibly be an option on Yoda and Obi-Wan's part.

What you are saying is that Yoda and Obi-Wan waited 20 years to train Luke to go die.
Redemption is obviously a part of the plan.

[Channel72]

The only thing that makes actual sense is that they either want Luke to redeem Vader or sacrifice himself in the process and hope that losing that last bit of himself will be too much to bear for Vader/Anakin and he turns on the Emperor and fulfills his destiny. In-universe, minus what GL has said, either Skywalker fits the bill of the Chosen One.

There is no retconn needed.

The most straightforward way to interpret the dialogue is that Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to kill Vader. I mean, how much clearer can you get than:

Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Perhaps that's why Obi-Wan lied to Luke in the first place about Vader's identity - he needed Luke to see Anakin Skywalker from a certain point of view: not like a father figure, but as an irredeemable monster. That's why Obi-Wan wants Luke to think of his father as already dead - murdered by Darth Vader. It's also probably why Obi-Wan didn't just tell Luke about Vader to begin with - he needed Luke to reach a point in his Jedi training where he'd be emotionally able to face Vader objectively, in order to kill him.

So, there's really nothing in the movie that ever indicates Obi-Wan or Yoda actually wanted Luke to redeem Vader. It's only Luke's love for his father that made Luke believe such a thing was possible, and indeed what made Vader's ultimate redemption so powerful. Luke's filial love for his father allowed him to see the good in Vader - something which Obi-Wan thought was long dead.

Back to the original point - all of this works more or less within the context of the OT alone. But with the Prequels in mind, it's kind of difficult to imagine how Yoda or Obi-Wan thought Luke would be physically capable of confronting Palpatine. Now, the dialogue never specifically says that Yoda or Obi-Wan want Luke to confront Palpatine - they only insist that he confront Vader. But one has to wonder what the point of killing Vader is, politically, when Palpatine is the more significant target. Perhaps the goal was simply to kill Vader, then build up a new Jedi order over the years, which would eventually be able to take down Palpatine. (But then the battle of Endor happened, so whatever.)

[Ahriman238]

Vader is Palpatine's enforcer, his strong right arm. I believe he's supposed to be more powerful than the Emperor, just much less experienced and skilled. Hell, losing Vader would demonstrably be a greater blow to Palpatine than losing the Death Star, he could replace the Death Star but their's only one chosen one.

Other than that, Luke is a young man in the prime of his life, and Palpatine wasn't exactly a spring chicken 20 years ago, even if he's nowhere near Yoda's age.

[Napoleon the Clown]

I never said Yoda was smart or had the most healthy appreciation of life. "Learn to let go" seems to suggest that he doesn't hold that much value in an individual life.

[Tiriol]

I never said Yoda was smart or had the most healthy appreciation of life. "Learn to let go" seems to suggest that he doesn't hold that much value in an individual life.

When someone is over 900 years old and has spent most of that life around people who don't have lifespans that long, I suppose one is FORCED to adapt or go insane from grief.

I always thought that Luke was supposed, at least by Kenobi and Yoda, to kill Vader. It was Luke's love for his father, his firm belief that some good still existed within the man who once was Anakin, that allowed him to do the impossible. It's very clear that neither Vader nor Palpatine considered this a possibility and even the two remaining Jedi thought that such thing would never happen.

[Purple]

Now, the dialogue never specifically says that Yoda or Obi-Wan want Luke to confront Palpatine - they only insist that he confront Vader. But one has to wonder what the point of killing Vader is, politically, when Palpatine is the more significant target. Perhaps the goal was simply to kill Vader, then build up a new Jedi order over the years, which would eventually be able to take down Palpatine. (But then the battle of Endor happened, so whatever.)

This to me sounds like the most plausible explanation as well. With a Jedi knight, and not just a Jedi Knight but the Jedi Knight that took down Darth Vader on their side and the success on Yavin the rebellion would have been well on their way to becoming a new and improved invigorated fighting force to eventually take down the empire in the years to come. And than Luke could be the one to rebuild the order.

[Elfdart]

You guys are overthinking this.

Ben wants Luke to kill Vader, period. He dismisses the idea that Vader can be saved ("more machine now than man, twisted and ee-vill"). Yoda wants Luke to train more Jedi ("pass on what you have learned"). The "plan" is for Luke to kill Vader, train up a bunch of Jedi and eventually take out the Emperor, who no longer has disgruntled Jedi to recruit. Yoda warns Luke not to underestimate the Emperor, but Luke didn't really heed Yoda's warning anyway, so guess what he does! He goes headlong into a direct confrontation with both Sith Lords. Fortunately, Luke was right, his dad had some conscience left and Sidious got his ass bodyslammed.

The point is that Luke is his own man now. He doesn't need advice from Yoda or Ben anymore (which is good, because as the prequels showed, the old Jedi Order was seriously fucked up) and follows his own midichlorians conscience and good judgement.

What did you think Obi-Wan meant when he said "That boy is our last hope..."?

He knew that The Other was locked up and being tortured. Ben was being pessimistic.

[Simon_Jester]

I like Ahriman's idea. Luke is being primed to kill Vader- given that he is "strong in the Force," maybe he could be further trained (or self-trained) to kill Palpatine as well, but that's not so important. The man was a prominent politician ten years before the Clone Wars, about thirty years before the original movies. Palpatine's got to be... what, seventy? Eighty? Just wait for him to die of old age.*

But Vader could keep ticking for quite a while. Literally ticking, if there's a pacemaker in that armor. And it's plausible that he could continue to rule the Empire by fear- as the Emperor's right hand man, he'd be a logical choice for successor. So by killing him, Luke would cut short the reign of Imperial tyranny by quite some time- a generation or more. That's a pretty significant victory.

And depriving Palpatine of Vader would weaken him enormously, because when Palpatine needs a Force-using agent to go do something, he sends Vader. He doesn't go in person. Without Vader, he'd be more vulnerable to Rebel plots to assassinate him, and might get killed off even before old age finishes him.
____________

*Unless we start bringing in EU stuff that didn't exist when the movies were made. If you want, you can say "But he had an army of clones!" I don't approve of that because it means we're no longer considering the movies as an autonomous artistic whole; we're bringing in extra stuff made up years after the fact by someone else.

[Kuja]

What did you think Obi-Wan meant when he said "That boy is our last hope..."?

He knew that The Other was locked up and being tortured. Ben was being pessimistic.

I think what Ben meant with that line was that with him dead and Yoda growing close to his own end, if they lost Luke now they had neither the connection with Leia nor the time to start all over again. If Luke died, that was it. Yoda's line was a reminder that "always in motion is the future" and anything was possible.

[PainRack]

I'm not so sure....

We do know that a Jedi has to go through various trials before they decleared to be a Jedi Knight. I was never really fully satisfied with the Trials show that Jedi are good enough, but rather, a Trial exposes a Jedi to the potential risk of the Dark Side. If he fails to pass the test, he's not.... morally fit enough to be a Jedi.


Luke passed his test on Bespin, when he confronted Vader, confronted his despair and didn't give in to the Dark Side. That was why Yoda said no more training he needed, because he had already received the martial and "philosophical" training needed to be a warrior.


The whole training appears to be Yoda/Ben training a Jedi to kill off Vader, who in return would not be seduced by the Emperor to join the Dark Side.
There was never any indication that facing Vader and the Emperor= kill them both, but rather, Luke mustn't join the Dark Side even if he confronted by two Sith Lord trying to seduce him to the Dark Side..