Anyways, marching right into Mordor still isn't the brightest thing to do. If anything, Sauron will think someone got the idea that he could contest the Dark Lord with the One Ring, and will plow right through everyone to get at it.
While Sauron prefers to work from the shadows, he can be kick-ass when he needs be (took on an entire tower of Elves by casting a spell on fear on them, and all were slain or either fled (plus he likes to shapeshift ) )
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
Balrog wrote:Anyways, marching right into Mordor still isn't the brightest thing to do. If anything, Sauron will think someone got the idea that he could contest the Dark Lord with the One Ring, and will plow right through everyone to get at it.
I doubt he would make it through the army. Sauron was killed while he had the Ring and without it he is weaker and should go down even easier, espically if faced with heavy hitters like Gandalf and Glorfindal.
Balrog wrote:While Sauron prefers to work from the shadows, he can be kick-ass when he needs be (took on an entire tower of Elves by casting a spell on fear on them, and all were slain or either fled (plus he likes to shapeshift ) )
In all likelyhood Sauron can no longer shapeshift or is severly limited. After he died at Númenor he lost the ability to change into fairer forms and after his defeat and losing the Ring he couldn't even shapeshift to a form that had all it's fingers.
I present to you some facts given to me by friends who have spent far too much time with fire-arms and medieval armour.
Medieval style armour made using traditional techniques has the following resistances.
British military 30-06 ammo will penetrate at 20ft.
5.56 NATO will penetrate at 10-15ft.
7.62 NATO will penetrate at 30ft.
50cal will penetrate at 40-50ft.
12ga slug will penetrate at 15ft, but will kill anyone wearing the armour due to massive blunt force trauma even if it doesn't penetrate.
Unless we have uber-marksmen of doom then 7.62 is the way to go. And even then its going to be all but useless at anything but what amounts to point blank.
I present to you some facts given to me by friends who have spent far too much time with fire-arms and medieval armour.
Medieval style armour made using traditional techniques has the following resistances.
That's so vague it's useless as a comparison. And there's no way anyone could wear armor that offers more protection then 25mm of RHA, so 5.56 will still be effective.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
I present to you some facts given to me by friends who have spent far too much time with fire-arms and medieval armour.
Medieval style armour made using traditional techniques has the following resistances.
That's so vague it's useless as a comparison. And there's no way anyone could wear armor that offers more protection then 25mm of RHA, so 5.56 will still be effective.
OK.
Details - this was ex SCA armour that had outlived its usefulness. So it was already beaten up. It was made using traditional european metallurgy and smithing techniques by the SCA, using materiel roughly comparable in quality to that which would have been available. The pieces in question were breastplates IIRC.
For the hell of it they decided to shoot up this armour to see how it fared. Conclusions - modern firearms are shit all use at anything but exceptionally short range against an armoured opponent.
Balrog wrote:Anyways, marching right into Mordor still isn't the brightest thing to do. If anything, Sauron will think someone got the idea that he could contest the Dark Lord with the One Ring, and will plow right through everyone to get at it.
I doubt he would make it through the army. Sauron was killed while he had the Ring and without it he is weaker and should go down even easier, espically if faced with heavy hitters like Gandalf and Glorfindal.
Balrog wrote:While Sauron prefers to work from the shadows, he can be kick-ass when he needs be (took on an entire tower of Elves by casting a spell on fear on them, and all were slain or either fled (plus he likes to shapeshift ) )
In all likelyhood Sauron can no longer shapeshift or is severly limited. After he died at Númenor he lost the ability to change into fairer forms and after his defeat and losing the Ring he couldn't even shapeshift to a form that had all it's fingers.
Killed fighting against the two greatest heros Man and Elvenkind could offer (plus their uber-evil-killing weapons)
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
Yup, it was the swiss pike not the Arbeques that made armour obsolte. Since it cost too much to equip vs. the cost to get a lot of pointy things, it fell out of use. Also then and until the advent of antibiotics you were more likely to die from a leg wound. <Ahh, infections>
Now a days, it's a matter of cost and wieght, modern anti-ballistic cloth doesn't wiegh that much. Austrialian outlaw Ned Kelly, pretty well proved that except at close range armour would render you bullet proof, it's just that you won't have any endurance, or be able to hit Jack/Shit over range.
That's why helmet's exist, as do flack jackets. Also if I saw a fully armoured orc charging me on warg-back, the dog is going down! I think the orc will understand once their wieght + sudden decel of wolf+impact of ground gets factored in (They won't be getting up)
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Crayz9000 wrote:Have the Orcs ever thought of armouring the Wargs?
I doubt it; Wargs can talk with other forms of life like Orks. So if they wanted protection they could ask. It would probably cut down on their endurance and agility too much for there liking.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Admiral Valdemar wrote:Okay, so what exactly IS our regular ordinance per soldier?
Rob says 7.62mm and others say 5.56mm. So we either have something like the AKs or an M-16/M-4/G-36 etc.
AK-47/AKM/AK-103 is in 7.62x39mm. That's significantly smaller than NATO 7.62x51mm.
I'm still for 5.56mm. Shooting em at 500m is nothing to sneeze at. We don't need the extra range or power, it just means we're carrying less ammo and have a rifle that's more difficult to fire. There's a reason why no nation (that isn't crap) uses 7.62 instead of 5.56- nostalgia from big bullets aside.
Retracting my earlier incorrect statement…. The 5.56 AP ammunition, M995, I'm thinking off will go through something like 25mm of aluminum armor. At 100 meter it goes through 12mm of RHA. The 7.62mm version goes though 15 at that range.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
I present to you some facts given to me by friends who have spent far too much time with fire-arms and medieval armour ...
Are those figures taken from AP rounds?
AP ammunition is hard to get in most places, and many rounds aren't solid to civilian's period. Most new rounds are declared non sporting and banned in the US as the Federal level for example. The P-90's 5.7mm round and M995 are both cases of this.
I'd place money on them only using ball or JHP.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Balrog wrote:Killed fighting against the two greatest heros Man and Elvenkind could offer (plus their uber-evil-killing weapons)
Sauron is probably better than an average human but he is not going to single handedly take out an army. Additionaly Sauron is not some bezerker who will charge at anyone he thinks has the ring, if he was then he would have attacked Aragorn at the Black Gate himself. Sauron will most likely lead his army from the rear or better yet in his tower where his personal safety is much better and he can use his seeing stone to survy the battlefield. He will do this for the simple reason that if he dies in battle even if he did kill a hundred men ( not likely I would give him 20 max) he loses the war; Sauron is not fighting the war for Mordor but for Sauron and will not willing risk himself unless things are so desprate he has to and at this point you have already won. This renders the aquistion of anti-Sauron weaponry pointless.
But. A 5.56mm is adequate against the armor we see the Uruk-Hai wear, if we're working off the film. 6mm of RHA steel? My ass.
Stop fucking up formatting by posting those things. At 100 meters the differance is marginal, though I suspect those charts are working from more like 250 meters.
Bigger doesnt always take down more armor though, many 9mm FMJ rounds go through more armor then .45 dispite having similar or inferior muzzel energy.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Bigger doesnt always take down more armor though, many 9mm FMJ rounds go through more armor then .45 dispite having similar or inferior muzzel energy.
I know- but I was only referring to 7.62 vs 5.56
Stop fucking up formatting by posting those things. At 100 meters the differance is marginal, though I suspect those charts are working from more like 250 meters.
The Wargs aren't armoured for the exact same reason that horses are only lightly armoured in the warfare. Carring around the fully armoured humaniod is taxing enough. adding compareative amounts of armour to the warg would reduce it's endurance, speed, and really annoy it.
also the Ned Kelly analgy works well. Given that you can't fight very long at all in full armour. (It just wieghs to damn, much and is hotter then hell)
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Stop fucking up formatting by posting those things. At 100 meters the differance is marginal, though I suspect those charts are working from more like 250 meters.
Didn't fuck up my formatting.
Your not suppose to post anything over 500 wide in discussion threads. Those two pictures are 800 and 900 wide.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Didn't fuck up my formatting.
