I need some debate help

[Darth Lucifer]

Someone make a ImperialWiki page on this guy right away, this is too much idiocy to let go to waste! One day we may look back on this and think 'remember when that one guy nearly matched DarkStar in idiocy? Yeah! It's all documented!'

Seriously though, is this guy just a determined troll or could we actually get ZPE from the perfect vacuum between his ears?

That's what Parting Shots is for, which is where I have a strong feeling Tard8472 is headed.

Re: dialogue is superior to visuals...In "Best of Both Worlds Part I" Commander Shelby said that a Borg cube could still function even if it was 75% damaged. Yet in ST:FC the cube takes much less than that and starts exploding while launching its escape ball. Now why would that be? Commander Shelby said they would still be operable! The most likely reason is that her quote was a faulty estimate. Plus, she had never even encountered the Borg up to that point.

This is why dialogue cannot be interpreted as gospel truth.

[marsh8472]

But it obviously did not.

Look, explaining how Anakin and Obi-Wan withstood the heat is hard, but at least it's possible.
Perhaps they simply pumped the heat out of their bodies into the air - we have heat-pumps today (or do you not know what a refrigerator is?) No violations of any physics here.
Perhaps the forcefields we saw keep the heat close to the lavaflow. Again, that simply requires letting the air rise - hardly impossible.

You, however, try to use something that is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
Again, not only practically or scientifically impossible, but also logically.
You can not simply handwave timetravel-paradoxes away with a magic "timeshield".

It doesn't matter whether you think either event is logically possible or not. Just like you see something on star wars and assume it's true, I see something on star trek and assume it's true. In the strictest sense in a star trek vs star wars debate, canon facts are treated as facts regardless of how possible they are in real life.

All star trek canon sources say that the krenim ship is outside of space-time and impervious to weapons, the weapon modifies their history (not create some kind of alternate universe each time while leaving the original untouched), and the crew do not age.

The only objections to these things are arguments from personal incredulity i.e. "I can't believe this is possible, so it can't be true.".

You know that when you challenge the weapons basic canon attributes as your primary argument, outsiders will basically take that as a concession and star trek wins right? Their response will be something like "well whether you believe this technology is possible or not, it's still coming to get you"

Proove that the ship did not create alternate timelines.

I actually think that it does create alternate timelines. Just not alternate universes. It erases the current timeline then replaces it with an alternate timeline. A changed timeline is an alternate timeline.

Here are quotes from memory alpha that explain this:

An alternate timeline is a tangential space-time continuum, typically created upon the alteration of one or more events in the 'past'. Alternate timelines are frequently the result of unintentional temporal interference.

When subsequent episodes or films use the alternate timeline, this timeline becomes the main timeline and timelines appearing in episodes and films prior become "alternate". In "Fury", Kathryn Janeway and Tuvok did not know about Kes' future bitterness and desire to destroy Voyager. When Kes failed to destroy Voyager, and her plan was made apparent to Janeway and Tuvok, this created a new timeline in which they did know about Kes' future bitterness. This means that the episodes in between this timeline display a different "alternate" timeline.

I would have thought that proving it did not create alternate timelines would be your job.

Show a logical way for the ship to avoid the grandfather-paradox (undoing what made you do the undoing).

I did already. Go back in time while being protected by a temporal field then kill your grandfather. Even if killing your grandfather results in you ceasing to exist, the temporal field should protect you from changes in the timeline as we see from star trek episode "year of hell" and voyager episode "relativity" so you won't cease to exist.

Show how something can interact with the universe while the universe can not interact with it.
...

YOU made all these claims, so start backing them up.

actually star trek made these claims. Since they made them, they do not need to be proven in the debates.

-Show how the ship can violate the Laws of Thermodynamics
-Since it can violate the Laws of Thermodynamics, show why this was not used as a weapon
-Show how it avoids having it's work undone in an infinite universe, since it has no ontological intertia.

I stated the laws of thermodynamics as one possible explanation to explain why they don't age. Maybe the laws aren't necessarily not there, they just don't apply since conventional time does not exist on that ship since they are protected from space-time.

Let's just say that they can run out of fuel just like any other ship. They've shown they can sustain themselves for 200 years. They've also shown that they can use their transporter technology while being outside of space-time. So they could transport the raw materials needed to fuel their vessel.

What makes you think they've never used it as a weapon? We only see the krenim in 3 episodes, it's very possible they use something like this as a weapon. I have no reasons why it was not used as a weapon in addition to the krenim weapon.

If it was inevitable that everything would be undone just from the ship breaking down then annorax wouldn't have made the weapon to begin with. Dismantling the weapon alone shouldn't cause this as evidence by their dialog.

ANNORAX: The core is destabilising. It's going to cause a temporal incursion within the ship!

this in combination with having the temporal field around the ship turned off can be the only thing that can cause everything in the ship to be erased.

Read what you write, fucktard. Contrary to what you said we do not see evidence that Annorax has been doing this for 200 years, that is something he and his crew established in dialogue. Besides, "protected from spacetime therefor you do not age" is non-nonsensical itself.

That's true, we weren't actually there with him every step of the way with a stop watch. But why would they all lie about this? I was referring to the visual evidence that they do not age given that the ship has been doing this for over 200 years.

OBRIST: You said yourself our task will never be complete. Please, we should be satisfied with what we have accomplished. For two hundred years, we have never come this close.
ANNORAX: You surprise me, Obrist, After so many years you still perceive time through conventional eyes. Never is a word that has no meaning here. As long as we stay on this vessel, protected from space-time, we have all eternity to accomplish our mission.
CHAKOTAY: You've been at this for two hundred years, Annorax. What makes you think you're ever going to succeed?
OBRIST: My brother. And my parents, my closest friends. Every year at first. And then one day, I realized a century had passed and for years I had been celebrating birthdays for the dead. Or for people who had never existed.
PARIS: I've been spending time with our friend Obrist, who seems more than willing to share information. And that's not all. Does the name Captain Bligh mean anything to you? This is not a happy crew. They've been at this for two hundred years now. They're tired of it, Chakotay. They want it to end.

maybe all these people are wrong and annorax erased thousands of worlds in under 200 years. Just kidding, no way. You're an idiot.

A single molecule and every molecule surrounding it. What is under dispute is the precision Annorax claims to have which he never demonstrates. Just like he never demonstrates that his ship is impervious to weapons.

Okay if you really want a way he can do this I'll give you one. At the very least the time ship can use its tranporter to beam things off of voyager while outside of space time. If they wanted to erase a single molecule, they can tranport the molecule they want to erase into empty space next to their vessel then use their weapon to erase the molecule.

SEVEN: I've scanned their propulsion system. Their vessel's mass prevents them from exceeding warp six. We can escape.

I think there's enough canon evidence to challenge this statement by seven of nine.

KIM: Captain, there's some kind of spatial distortion heading toward us. Sensor readings are erratic. I can't identify the phenomenon.
CHAKOTAY: What's the source?
KIM: Unknown, but it originated approximately twenty light years from our position. It looks like a shock wave in the fabric of space-time.

voyager identifies that they are 20 light years away from where the krenim weapon ship is located

OBRIST: I may have an explanation. There's an anomalous temporal reading twenty light years from here. It's coming from a vessel.
ANNORAX: What vessel?
OBRIST: Component zero four nine beta, a ship called Voyager.

the krenim weapon ship identifies that voyager is 20 light years away from them

JANEWAY: So the question remains. What caused that shock wave in the first place? See if you can track it back to its origin.
SEVEN: The shockwave emanated from a planet twenty light-years away. The Garenor homeworld.
JANEWAY: The Garenor? We passed their planet three weeks ago.

within moments of the krenim weapon ship reaching voyager, seven says that they are still 20 light years away from where the krenim weapon ship is located. So we know that voyager isn't helping them traverse the distance between them.

From the moment annorax gives the order to set a course to voyager until they reach voyager is only about 2.5 minutes.

3x10^8 m/s = speed of light ( or c )

(3x10^8)*60*60*24*365.251*20=1893461184*10^8 = 1.893461184x10^17 meters = 20 light years

1.893461184x10^17 meters / 2.5 minutes = 3.15576864x10^15 m/s


(3.15576864x10^15 / 3x10^8 ) = 1.05192288x10^7 or about 10,000,000 times the speed of light

9.9999 is supposed to be 199516 times the speed of light according to the star trek encyclopedia

This chart on the encyclopedia even says warp 9.9999 can cover 20 light years in 53 minutes

so we know this vessel is actually capable of speeds somewhere between warp 9.9999 and warp 10. This is comparable to high estimates of the vessels on star wars I would think. Maybe voyager feels those vibrations as the krenim ship approaches because they just came out of warp 10.


There's no way you can fudge the numbers in such a way that makes the ship slower than warp 6, I've check this. Since you guys are pretty predictable when you argue your points, I'll save you the trouble of arguing this. Just going by the subtitles on the episode we know that annorax set his course for voyager on or after Day 65 (since the lastupdate on what day they were on before annorax gives this order is Day 65) and reached voyager on Day 70. This isn't dialog evidence so you shouldn't have a problem with subtitle evidence I would think.



1.893461184x10^17 meters / 5 days = 2.191506x10^12 meters/second

2.191506x10^12 / 3x10^8 = 7.30502x10^3 or about 7305 times the speed of light which is around warp 9.1. And that's when you bend over backwards and fudge every single number in your favor. with the exception of the distance. It's mathematically proven.

Now you have to claim that they aren't really 20 light years away from each other. Kim and seven made a mistake when they said they were 20 light years away from krenim ship and the krenim ship made a mistake when they said they were 20 light years away from voyager. And yet dispite all these character errors, the krenim ship found voyager really quickly. And you have to accept that voyager stayed in their same location for 5 days, not getting a single light year closer to leaving krenim space.

Also before you jump on me for this, just know that I'm only using the same logic that you guys use when you justify that the falcon on star wars can go faster than 1.5c. Also no need to use this to show dialog isn't credible. Dialog is credible as long as it's not contradicted by other dialog like this.

[marsh8472]

Someone make a ImperialWiki page on this guy right away, this is too much idiocy to let go to waste! One day we may look back on this and think 'remember when that one guy nearly matched DarkStar in idiocy? Yeah! It's all documented!'

Seriously though, is this guy just a determined troll or could we actually get ZPE from the perfect vacuum between his ears?

That's what Parting Shots is for, which is where I have a strong feeling Tard8472 is headed.

Re: dialogue is superior to visuals...In "Best of Both Worlds Part I" Commander Shelby said that a Borg cube could still function even if it was 75% damaged. Yet in ST:FC the cube takes much less than that and starts exploding while launching its escape ball. Now why would that be? Commander Shelby said they would still be operable! The most likely reason is that her quote was a faulty estimate. Plus, she had never even encountered the Borg up to that point.

This is why dialogue cannot be interpreted as gospel truth.

she was talking about the borg cube in the episode "best of both worlds" not the borg cube in first contact. Plus the borg cube was able to launch the sphere even though the ship was blowing up in the process .

[Serafina]

Look, dumbwit:
Canon evidence is treated just like we would treat evidence in reality - scientifically.

If a scientist sees something that looks like a violation of the Laws of Thermodynamics, he will require the most scrutinious, extraordinary proof.
We do not HAVE that amount of proof for your claims. All we have is dialogue - we don't even have any visuals to back it up.

Suppose Data said that he can pass trough matter, would you believe it? Well, i would not, unless he actually does it.
That's the same way i would treat such a statement in reality.

Generally, the level of scrutiny increases the more the probabilty of the claim decreases - that's basic science for you.
You are claiming the impossible and you back it up with the weakest possible evidence - dialogue.

Stop treating the laws of physics as something that can be thrown out of the window just because someone said so.
No intelligent person does that when analyzing real life, why should we do so when analyzing science fiction?

[marsh8472]

Look, dumbwit:
Canon evidence is treated just like we would treat evidence in reality - scientifically.

If a scientist sees something that looks like a violation of the Laws of Thermodynamics, he will require the most scrutinious, extraordinary proof.
We do not HAVE that amount of proof for your claims. All we have is dialogue - we don't even have any visuals to back it up.

Suppose Data said that he can pass trough matter, would you believe it? Well, i would not, unless he actually does it.
That's the same way i would treat such a statement in reality.

Generally, the level of scrutiny increases the more the probabilty of the claim decreases - that's basic science for you.
You are claiming the impossible and you back it up with the weakest possible evidence - dialogue.

Stop treating the laws of physics as something that can be thrown out of the window just because someone said so.
No intelligent person does that when analyzing real life, why should we do so when analyzing science fiction?

no There are too many similar episodes that have ships outside of space-time and are visibly seen which makes it canon and overrules your objections to it. Here's something from this site http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wik ... .php/Canon

Canon is the body of admissible evidence for any particular universe. The age-old question of what is and what is not canon is one of the most salient points of the debate, and has perhaps surpassed the actual technical debates as the key issue in the whole Star Wars vs. Star Trek argument.

Plus there was this other guy on here somewhere that said that if ICS stated that a star destroyer can destroy the entire solar system in a single shot, he would accept it despite never seeing this firepower on film. So you're going to have disagreements with your peers on that point.



using your arguments, these guys should be able to be killed again with weapons since they are visible. Then we could argue about how plausible midichlorians in our cells are and the necessity of needing midichlorians for life to exist. Or just the force in general.

Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

[Darth Hoth]

There are too many similar episodes that have ships outside of space-time and are visibly seen which makes it canon and overrules your objections to it.

Which episodes are these, and what evidence is used to establish that these ships are "outside space-time"?

Plus there was this other guy on here somewhere that said that if ICS stated that a star destroyer can destroy the entire solar system in a single shot, he would accept it despite never seeing this firepower on film. So you're going to have disagreements with your peers on that point.

This has been spelled out to you in detail before, but:

Visuals are superior evidence as compared to dialogue. This does not mean that dialogue is absolutely worthless; the owner of this site uses dialogue evidence in his analysis of both franchises, for example. In a case where there is no visual evidence, dialogue evidence should be considered. It is not necessarily valid - a character might still be mistaken or dishonest, so if the claim contradicts the laws of physics or the established premises of the setting, it should be carefully considered before accepted. However, it can still be of value.

But, a very important caveat: Dialogue cannot be used to contradict visuals. This is what you are attempting to do with the timeship case.

In the hypothetical case you bring up (as has also been noted here before), the hypothetical evidence would not contradict the visual sources; its case would be made in a vacuum, and thus accepted. But if the hypothetical ICS claimed something that is contradicted by the films (in order to keep this simple, perhaps it would say that the Executor was painted red by the time of tESB) it would be thrown out.

using your arguments, these guys should be able to be killed again with weapons since they are visible.

At the very least, we can establish that they are not "outside space-time".

Then we could argue about how plausible midichlorians in our cells are and the necessity of needing midichlorians for life to exist.

Exactly. See, you are beginning to understand after all! Using a scientific mindset (and assuming for the moment that we use the filmic canon only for the sake of the argument, given that midichlorians are listed in the canonical literature), we must seriously consider whether Qui-Gon Jinn's dialogue is valid as evidence or not. Does he know what he is talking about? The Jedi Masters have been proved wrong elsewhere in the films; in disbelieving that Vader could be redeemed, for example.

Or just the force in general.

The Force is empirically demonstrable from onscreen visuals. Its demonstrated effects cannot be disputed. However, the Jedi theology surrounding it, which is based purely on dialogue, can be.

[BLACKSUN2000]

In the strictest sense in a star trek vs star wars debate, canon facts are treated as facts regardless of how possible they are in real life.

Vader says the deathstar is insignificant compared to the force.The Krenim time weapon can't stop the force.

Palpatine said he had unlimited power.

We win.

using your arguments, these guys should be able to be killed again with weapons since they are visible. Then we could argue about how plausible midichlorians in our cells are and the necessity of needing midichlorians for life to exist. Or just the force in general.

Seen ONLY by luke, through the force. The comparison isn't valid.


I'm honestly suprised he hasn't gotten a custom title for his massively thick wall of ignorance/stupidity.

[Formless]

That's true, we weren't actually there with him every step of the way with a stop watch. But why would they all lie about this? I was referring to the visual evidence that they do not age given that the ship has been doing this for over 200 years.

You dishonest strawmanning little shit, if you read the parts of my post and later clarification which you conveniently snipped out I did NOT call bullshit on the 200 years figure, I was calling bullshit on the idea that they are shielded from time and that they would not age even if this were the case since they obviously experience time from the ships own internal frame of reference. You have given no evidence for this other than dialogue.

Okay if you really want a way he can do this I'll give you one. At the very least the time ship can use its tranporter to beam things off of voyager while outside of space time. If they wanted to erase a single molecule, they can tranport the molecule they want to erase into empty space next to their vessel then use their weapon to erase the molecule.

And have their transporters, or even their sensors for that matter, ever showed this level of precision? Answer: only in your fervent delusional imagination.

[Azron_Stoma]

I'm honestly suprised he hasn't gotten a custom title for his massively thick wall of ignorance/stupidity.

I vote Ferrous Cranus Extremis.

[marsh8472]

Which episodes are these, and what evidence is used to establish that these ships are "outside space-time"?

it's from episode "relativity"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity ... Voyager%29

In this episode, Braxton is captain of the timeship USS Relativity, a ship existing outside space-time; its crew are able to scan time to look for temporal incursions or paradoxes, whereupon they can venture in to prevent the said paradox.

not sure where they got their information in the episode that the ship is outside of space time except that they say they cause temporal incursions and are not affected by them. There is a mention of a chronaton flux of 0.003 also.

The sphere builders in episode "zero hour" were able to walk through matter and phaser fire went right though them, yet we are still able to see them.

The parasites that infected archer in episode "twilight" are said to be outside of space time from these quotes:

T'POL: Phlox discovered that the organisms are from a domain outside normal space-time. They exist in a state of interspatial flux. None of his treatments had any effect on them.

PHLOX: We know they’re from another spatial domain. Apparently, they also exist outside of time.

In the episode "Persistence of Vision" voyager there were ships that were not actually there because they were generated by a telephatic alien. Yet we are able to see them.

The whole point being that just because something is phased or exists outside of space-time does not mean they have to be invisible.

This has been spelled out to you in detail before, but:

Visuals are superior evidence as compared to dialogue. This does not mean that dialogue is absolutely worthless; the owner of this site uses dialogue evidence in his analysis of both franchises, for example. In a case where there is no visual evidence, dialogue evidence should be considered. It is not necessarily valid - a character might still be mistaken or dishonest, so if the claim contradicts the laws of physics or the established premises of the setting, it should be carefully considered before accepted. However, it can still be of value.

But, a very important caveat: Dialogue cannot be used to contradict visuals. This is what you are attempting to do with the timeship case.

In the hypothetical case you bring up (as has also been noted here before), the hypothetical evidence would not contradict the visual sources; its case would be made in a vacuum, and thus accepted. But if the hypothetical ICS claimed something that is contradicted by the films (in order to keep this simple, perhaps it would say that the Executor was painted red by the time of tESB) it would be thrown out.

And I've spelled it out back in detailed before.

That's debatable whether visuals always overrule dialog. But both dialog and visuals confirm that the ship is visible to the voyager crew. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing your interpretation of this as proof that the ship exists outside of space-time or invulnerable to weapons. Your whole argument is that you don't see how the ship can be visible while outside of space-time therefore it is not. There's no visual evidence that the ship is vulnerable to weapons fire but there is dialog evidence to support that the ship is not vulnerable to weapons fire. Canon shows that things don't have to be in normal-space to be visible.

At the very least, we can establish that they are not "outside space-time".

they may exist in another realm and outside of normal space-time. You ignored the point though. Weapons fire cannot damage those guys and yet they are still visible.

The Force is empirically demonstrable from onscreen visuals. Its demonstrated effects cannot be disputed. However, the Jedi theology surrounding it, which is based purely on dialogue, can be.

but can it be scientifically possible? That's what you guys are trying to argue against the krenim ship.

Vader says the deathstar is insignificant compared to the force.The Krenim time weapon can't stop the force.

Palpatine said he had unlimited power.

We win.

palpatine just said "unlimited power" he didn't say that he had unlimited power. He also said "i can't hold him any longer" when he was trying to stop the jedi from killing him which tells me he does have limited power. Plus he dies later of course.

VAder said that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force but doesn't say in what way. Nor does this matter since the death star's abilities are insignificant next to the krenim weapon's ability to erase things from history.

Seen ONLY by luke, through the force. The comparison isn't valid.

No proof of that it can only be seen by luke. It's seen by the viewers also. Just like the krenim weapon is seen by the viewers also. Plus both luke and yoda were able to hear obi wan at the same time in the empire strikes back. It's just further evidence that visibility is not a sufficient condition for vulnerability to weapons.

I'm honestly suprised he hasn't gotten a custom title for his massively thick wall of ignorance/stupidity.

that's just because you don't know when you're wrong. You seem kind of like a block head yourself.

You dishonest strawmanning little shit, if you read the parts of my post and later clarification which you conveniently snipped out I did NOT call bullshit on the 200 years figure, I was calling bullshit on the idea that they are shielded from time and that they would not age even if this were the case since they obviously experience time from the ships own internal frame of reference. You have given no evidence for this other than dialogue.

na you were pretty clear about no evidence supporting the 200 year figure. This just jumps into theoretical questions like does motion cause time, does time cause motion, is motion the same thing as time. Intriguing ideas to ponder over but they say in the episode they are protected from space-time and the weapon stops them from aging.

And have their transporters, or even their sensors for that matter, ever showed this level of precision? Answer: only in your fervent delusional imagination.

They have never not shown this level of precision. There's no evidence to suggest they don't have this ability and there's evidence that they do have this ability: their dialog. You sound so crude and dumb when you talk here, is it because you're just naturally stupid? or is it because you're drunk every time you talk here? Probably a combination of both huh?

I see no one disputes the true speed of the krenim ship. Now we can assume that the krenim ship is capable of erasing all inhabited worlds in a matter of a few years.

[Formless]

This just jumps into theoretical questions like does motion cause time, does time cause motion, is motion the same thing as time. Intriguing ideas to ponder over but they say in the episode they are protected from space-time and the weapon stops them from aging.

Motion implies time. If you can move and/or think that means your muscles and/or brain are actively burning energy and the cells in them are going about the processes we call "life," processes which involve aging. In the same franchise we have Vulcans whose lifespans are measured in centuries, and even in the Federation itself a man can live for more than a century. Its not implausible that the Krenim have some technology that suspends the aging process or just don't age much in the first place (like the vulcans), but the line that it is them being shielded from time is gibberish and sounds like the kind of thing a liar would tell to cover up an inconsistency in their story.

In any case, this is quickly drifting away from the thread subject of "can the Krenim Time weapon destroy the empire," and into "nearly all of Annorax's claims are demonstrably wrong in every way," so I'm just going to leave this point alone.

They have never not shown this level of precision. There's no evidence to suggest they don't have this ability and there's evidence that they do have this ability: their dialog.

When there is evidence that Annorax is an exaggerating blowhard? Hardly. And don't think that my concession that they have probably been at it for 200 years justifies this argument: remember that I also cited the behavior of the crew as evidence that they have been at it for a very long time at the least, which lends some rare credibility to the claim.

I see no one disputes the true speed of the krenim ship. Now we can assume that the krenim ship is capable of erasing all inhabited worlds in a matter of a few years.

Now this is just an outright lie. Several people on the last few pages disputed this several times. Its top speed was even mentioned: warp 6, more pitiful than Voyager's excruciatingly slow speed. You aren't even trying to hide your broken record tactics at this point.

[BLACKSUN2000]

palpatine just said "unlimited power" he didn't say that he had unlimited power. He also said "i can't hold him any longer" when he was trying to stop the jedi from killing him which tells me he does have limited power. Plus he dies later of course.

while zapping someone.

Also it was all a ploy to turn Anakin. But of course you ignore things on purpose.

VAder said that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force but doesn't say in what way. Nor does this matter since the death star's abilities are insignificant next to the krenim weapon's ability to erase things from history.

The Force can cuse stars to go nova, drain the life from people and birth the chosen one> deathstar.

A "weapon" that ceates alternate timlines(re-read previous posts) =/=The deathstar it's actual armaments/defenses were weak, the time weapon catapulted everything into an alternate dimension.

No proof of that it can only be seen by luke. It's seen by the viewers also.

Oh you mean the fact that Leia came behind luke and didn't notice the blue glowing apparitions? If they were visible to all Leia would've seen them.

With that you have proven to me you are nothing but a worthless trolling douchebag.

Plus both luke and yoda were able to hear obi wan at the same time in the empire strikes back.

Both are Jedi, both heard obiwan through the force. Han was also near luke when luke saw Obi-wan on Hoth if he saw luke then he would've seen obi-wans glowing form. But obviously he didn't, and Your points go down in flames, again.

that's just because you don't know when you're wrong. You seem kind of like a block head yourself.

Coming from you that really isn't much of an insult.

[marsh8472]

while zapping someone.

Also it was all a ploy to turn Anakin. But of course you ignore things on purpose.

It's pretty easy to ignore that since that theory is your own invention. Palpatine was beaten before Anakin arrived to stop them. No doubt you'll argue that he can see into the future and knew Anakin would arrive. But he was scared for life as a result of the attack. If he had unlimited power he wouldn't have had lifelong scars like this. I doubt he was just putting on a show for Anakin. If palpatine had unlimited power he wouldn't have died from falling off a ledge. And if palpatine had unlimited power then yoda wouldn't have been able to block his attacks or push palatine across the room.

A "weapon" that ceates alternate timlines(re-read previous posts) =/=The deathstar it's actual armaments/defenses were weak, the time weapon catapulted everything into an alternate dimension.

it creates alternate timelines by destroying them. A new timeline takes its place and the previous timeline is refered to as an alternate timeline (not an alternate universe).

Oh you mean the fact that Leia came behind luke and didn't notice the blue glowing apparitions? If they were visible to all Leia would've seen them.

Leia doesn't even look where luke is looking. She just looks at luke the whole time. You'd have to explain why they are visible to luke as well as camera's point of view.

Both are Jedi, both heard obiwan through the force. Han was also near luke when luke saw Obi-wan on Hoth if he saw luke then he would've seen obi-wans glowing form. But obviously he didn't, and Your points go down in flames, again

there could have been things obstructing the vision of hans, the tree trunk that luke was standing next to for example. Also it's possible they became aware of the ghosts and don't make long eye contact with them because it didn't seem that out of the ordinary to them anymore. Force Ghosts appear in other forms of canon if someone wants to look that up and see if there are any instances where the ghosts are also visible by ordinary people be my guest.

Coming from you that really isn't much of an insult.

no offense I don't mean it as an insult, I mean it as a fact.

When there is evidence that Annorax is an exaggerating blowhard? Hardly. And don't think that my concession that they have probably been at it for 200 years justifies this argument: remember that I also cited the behavior of the crew as evidence that they have been at it for a very long time at the least, which lends some rare credibility to the claim.

You accuse dialog of being incorrect because it's hearsay and maybe they just believe what they're saying but it's not true. If they believe what they say then it would affect their behavior as well and equally uncredible as dialog on those grounds. Sorry but I do kind of take your concession about the 200 years thing as justification that dialog is more reliable than you give it credit for.

When was annorax proven to have exaggerated? http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/407.htm there's the transcript. I'm serious, go look and find me a quote that's proven to be exaggerated. I say you're just using circular reasoning and stateing that the dialog is exaggerated because it is wrong and the dialog is wrong because "annorax is an exaggerating blowhard".

Now this is just an outright lie. Several people on the last few pages disputed this several times. Its top speed was even mentioned: warp 6, more pitiful than Voyager's excruciatingly slow speed. You aren't even trying to hide your broken record tactics at this point.

I didn't make the claim that the weapon could go faster than warp 6 until this very page. It's mathematically proven that the krenim ship can go faster than warp 9. Most likely between warp 9.9999 and warp 10.

[Formless]

You accuse dialog of being incorrect because it's hearsay and maybe they just believe what they're saying but it's not true. If they believe what they say then it would affect their behavior as well and equally uncredible as dialog on those grounds. Sorry but I do kind of take your concession about the 200 years thing as justification that dialog is more reliable than you give it credit for.

First of all, if they haven't been at it for 200 years you forfeit the claim that they have as much time as they need to erase every sentient species in the Star Wars galaxy from history because there is no longer any reason to grant them their claims to immortality. They grow old, they die, end of thread. You want to make that argument, be my guest.

I'm being generous here, and you don't even realize it. The outside evidence suggests that not all of Annorax's claims are false (in fact, it would be foolish to think so since he has demonstrated several of the abilities he claims his ship has, just not the degree he boasts) but he is unreliable enough that we would want to look for visual evidence to verify his claims. I don't just dismiss his statements as hearsay, I dismiss them because they make no sense and contradict visual evidence. However, nothing contradicts his statements about having been at it for 200 years, and there is nothing theoretically unsound about physical immortality-- for fucks sake, this is a show where vulcans live for hundreds of years and no one bats an eyelash at it. It has nothing to do with them believing their own statements and everything to do with there being little other explanation for their behavior. This is what we call "psychology". Clearly even the soft sciences are beyond you.

I didn't make the claim that the weapon could go faster than warp 6 until this very page. It's mathematically proven that the krenim ship can go faster than warp 9. Most likely between warp 9.9999 and warp 10

Another outright lie. People can read this thread, you know. Although I can't blame them if they chose not to expose themselves to your disgraceful debating style, if it can even be called that.

[marsh8472]

First of all, if they haven't been at it for 200 years you forfeit the claim that they have as much time as they need to erase every sentient species in the Star Wars galaxy from history because there is no longer any reason to grant them their claims to immortality. They grow old, they die, end of thread. You want to make that argument, be my guest.

They have been at it for 200 years. I accept this from dialog. At the end of the voyager episode we see annorax with his wife. This should be something we're seeing 200 years ago and annorax's appearance hasn't changed at all, not looking any younger than before.

OBRIST: I used to honour the day of his birth.
PARIS: Who?
OBRIST: My brother. And my parents, my closest friends. Every year at first. And then one day, I realized a century had passed and for years I had been celebrating birthdays for the dead. Or for people who had never existed.

notice he says after a century he would expect his family and friends to be dead.

OBRIST: If I may speak my thoughts, Many among the crew are convinced that you have lost your objectivity. They think your quest for precision is unrealistic. Sir, we will never restore one hundred percent of what we had. We can manipulate the time continuum for another ten centuries. It will never happen.

he acknowledges that they're capable of manipulating the time continuum for another ten centuries. You disregard annorax because you think he exaggerates all the time... how about obrists? exaggerates all the time too?

Even if they could grow old and die, they could always make the krenim weapon a generational ship and pass the mission down to their descendants. It's hardly something that would defeat them.

I'm being generous here, and you don't even realize it. The outside evidence suggests that not all of Annorax's claims are false (in fact, it would be foolish to think so since he has demonstrated several of the abilities he claims his ship has, just not the degree he boasts) but he is unreliable enough that we would want to look for visual evidence to verify his claims. I don't just dismiss his statements as hearsay, I dismiss them because they make no sense and contradict visual evidence. However, nothing contradicts his statements about having been at it for 200 years, and there is nothing theoretically unsound about physical immortality-- for fucks sake, this is a show where vulcans live for hundreds of years and no one bats an eyelash at it. It has nothing to do with them believing their own statements and everything to do with there being little other explanation for their behavior. This is what we call "psychology". Clearly even the soft sciences are beyond you.

I can see you're being generous. Generous to star wars that is. Annorax proves many of the claims he's made about the ship's abilities. They all haven't been proven on screen but they haven't been disproven on screen either. If what you mean by visual evidence contradicts that the ship is outside of space-time just because it is visible that's not good enough since you don't have enough knowledge of temporal mechanics to prove that invisibility is necessary for the ship to be outside of space-time. If you don't believe annorax then why not believe ensign kim who says the ship exists outside of space-time also. As for you knowing anything about psychology... haha good one.

Another outright lie. People can read this thread, you know. Although I can't blame them if they chose not to expose themselves to your disgraceful debating style, if it can even be called that.

ensign kim, seven of nine, and obrist all say they are 20 light years away from each other. The krenim ship is able to reach voyager in 2 and a half minutes. It would require a speed greater than warp 9.9999 to traverse 20 light years in 2 and a half minutes.

Even if you went just go by the subtitles regarding the day count, the last update the episode gave on what day they were on was day 65. The krenim weapon reaches voyager on day 70. It would take a speed of warp 9.1 to traverse 20 light years in 5 days.

[Formless]

I can see you're being generous. Generous to star wars that is.

*sigh* I don't even know why I am bothering anymore. You will of course just repeat the same invalid arguments till the end of time because of course like the trektard you are you think its us who are guilty of exaggerating even though you neither want to know what the analysis and arguments we've got are or could even understand them if you tried. You have no interest in truth or accuracy or debating in good faith. No, you just want to score points and try and prove yours is the side with the larger dick even though a closer look reveals its just painted on. I have had my fill of mocking you. Good night, little wanker, and good bye.

[marsh8472]

I can see you're being generous. Generous to star wars that is.

*sigh* I don't even know why I am bothering anymore. You will of course just repeat the same invalid arguments till the end of time because of course like the trektard you are you think its us who are guilty of exaggerating even though you neither want to know what the analysis and arguments we've got are or could even understand them if you tried. You have no interest in truth or accuracy or debating in good faith. No, you just want to score points and try and prove yours is the side with the larger dick even though a closer look reveals its just painted on. I have had my fill of mocking you. Good night, little wanker, and good bye.

You certainly are a whiner. In episode "Miri" of the original series they used a globe as a prop for the planet that is supposed to be similar to earth, the end result was a visual of a planet with no clouds in the sky. Visuals are not perfect. Sometimes you just have to use your brain and draw the line somewhere.

The amount of dialog that states that the krenim ship is outside of time is just too overwelming to ignore, even with your visual objections. That is why it is listed on every canon sites that it is outside of space-time.

ANNORAX: You surprise me, Obrist, After so many years you still perceive time through conventional eyes. Never is a word that has no meaning here. As long as we stay on this vessel, protected from space-time, we have all eternity to accomplish our mission.
KIM: That entire vessel's in a state of temporal flux. It's like they exist outside space-time.
PARIS: This ship's temporal core keeps the vessel out of phase with normal space-time, but it's shields are incredibly weak. You take that core offline, and a photon grenade could penetrate the hull.
ANNORAX: We're outside space-time, impervious to their weapons. Let them come.
ANNORAX: Get back to your stations! You will not disobey me! We're phasing back into normal space-time. Reconfigure to conventional weapons.

And this is dialog evidence that obrist believes that the ship is outside of space-time as well

PARIS: This ship's temporal core keeps the vessel out of phase with normal space-time, but it's shields are incredibly weak. You take that core offline, and a photon grenade could penetrate the hull.
CHAKOTAY: How do you know all this?
PARIS: I've been spending time with our friend Obrist, who seems more than willing to share information.

Janeway was depending on tom to take the temporal core offline, why? well because the krenim ship is invulnerable to their weapons until they do. No doubt she's convinced the weapon is outside of space time as well. It's safe to say not a single person on this episode doubts that the ship exists outside of space time.

By claiming that the vessel is not outside space-time as fact then you're making all these quotes make no sense. It makes more sense that the quotes are accurate and your interpretation of the visual evidence is just incorrect. I can understand deciding to disregard a quote or two based on visual evidence but not disregard the basic concept of the entire episode. The evidence that the ship is outside of space-time is convincing enough for this characteristic to be listed on every known star trek site and reference book like the star trek encyclopedia.

Since the weapon is impervious to weapons, it renders the alleged superior firepower of star wars useless. That's really the only reason you continue persist that the weapon is outside of space-time. If the krenim vessel is capable of going of warp speeds greater than warp 9.9999 then it can attack the inner core planets of the star wars galaxy and probably wipe the empire off the map in no time just by doing that. When looked at objectively the krenim weapon wins hands down. I'm even told that this is going to end up as a case study on a site just because people are in disbelief that you are willing to deny basic facts in the star trek universe just to prove yourselves superior.

[Serafina]

Your dialogue can state that they are "outside of space-time" all you want - in the end, that's just words.

You see, it is quite likely that "outside of space-time" as SF-personell calls it does NOT have the properties you assign to it.
It could merely mean that time flows a bit different in there - big deal, that's called relativity and we can use that today.

You do not show us that what they call "outside of space-time" in ST is the same as "outside of space-time" as you use it.
We can easily disproove your measily claims of "can't touch me, universe", since these ships/phenomena simply do not behave like it. E.g., the Krenim ship is still visible - so light has to pass from and to it. Therefore it is interacting with spacetime and therefore not outside of it.

An object truly outside of space-time would behave completely different than what we see. At best, it would be like a three-dimensional being to a two-dimensional plane - able to interact with it but unable to do so fully and able to avoid interaction. But that means that IF it interacts, it's still a two-way connection.
At worst, to be truly outside of it, it would be unable to interact with our universe at all.

Instead of just telling us where they use the words "outside of space-time" in Trek, show us how the VISUALS (which includes the behaviour of things and characters) behave like the phenomenon you claim.

[marsh8472]

okay I'll try to make you see the light that way.

In voyager episode "shattered" chakotay's body was in a state of temporal flux and he had the liver of an 80 year old man and the kidneys of a 12 year old boy. Ensign kim refers to the krenim ship as being in a state of temporal flux. Similarly the ship was in a state of temporal flux and the fractured into different time periods. Each time period was divided by a temporal barrier. Look what happens when seska fires a phaser through the temporal barrier:



it's visually identical to what we see when ships phasers hit the temporal shielding of the krenim weapon ship. The phaser did not pass through the temporal barrior just like the phasers didn't penetrate the temporal shielding.

Chakotay was able to walk into other time periods and through the temporal barriers because he had a chronoton-infused serum. When chakotay passed through the temporal barrier he was no longer visible to seska but seska was visible to him. Additionally, the security officers weren't able to see janeway and chakotay after they passed through the temporal barrier but janeway and chakotay were able to see them.

In addition to the chronaton-infused serum making them able to pass through the temporal barrier it also allows them to see beyond the barrier. Similarly, voyager having temporal shields allows the krenim ship to be visible beyond its temporal shielding to voyager. The krenim weapon is capable of interacting with the universe by using temporal technology similar to what chakotay used to pass from one time period to another.

They were essentially invulnerable to all conventional weapons on the other side of temporal barrier and it was still possible to be visible and interact between the barriers using temporal technology.

[Serafina]

Great, that proves that the NDF-reaction of a phaser is affected by the temporal barrier, to a degree where SF-shipphasers are ineffective.

Big deal - that proves squat about other weapons.

You can not logically conclude that the ship is invulnerable to everything just because it was not damaged by one specific type of weapon.
Even if you can show that they were also not damaged by photon torpedoes - so what, those two weapons are barely in the kiloton-range, while SW-weapons are easily within the gigaton-range. Just because something is not damaged by a thrown pebble, does that mean it is immune to a plane crashing into it? Or to a megawatt-laser fired at it?

[marsh8472]

Great, that proves that the NDF-reaction of a phaser is affected by the temporal barrier, to a degree where SF-shipphasers are ineffective.

Big deal - that proves squat about other weapons.

You can not logically conclude that the ship is invulnerable to everything just because it was not damaged by one specific type of weapon.
Even if you can show that they were also not damaged by photon torpedoes - so what, those two weapons are barely in the kiloton-range, while SW-weapons are easily within the gigaton-range. Just because something is not damaged by a thrown pebble, does that mean it is immune to a plane crashing into it? Or to a megawatt-laser fired at it?

Instead of just telling us where they use the words "outside of space-time" in Trek, show us how the VISUALS (which includes the behaviour of things and characters) behave like the phenomenon you claim.

I just did what you asked and it didn't work.

The ship is said to be invulnerable to all conventional weapons. Star wars weapons cannot pass through the krenim weapon's shields for the same reason why you can't fire a laser blast and have it hit something that is located in the past or future. Conventional weapons are restricted to stay in their own time period just like matter and energy in general.

[Serafina]

I just did what you asked and it didn't work.

You DID provide visual evidence that phasers do not work against objects affected by Trek-"space-time displacement" (further abreviated TSTD).
That does NOT show that TSTD is equal to being "really outside of space time" (futher abreviated ROST) - and even that would have the effects you claim (technobabble-impossibility-time-shit, abreviated TITS).

In order to make an argument, you have to show that TSTD equals TITS or at least ROST.
So far, you only provided dialogue-claims for TSTD and visual evidece for something that might be attributed to TSTD.

The ship is said to be invulnerable to all conventional weapons. Star wars weapons cannot pass through the krenim weapon's shields for the same reason why you can't fire a laser blast and have it hit something that is located in the past or future. Conventional weapons are restricted to stay in their own time period just like matter and energy in general.

But conventional light apparently is not, since all these things are still visible - the Krenim-Ship is even illuminated by another lightsource!
Therefore, AT LEAST ordinary light can damage it - and since photons can transport heat, we can just cook the ship with a giant flashlight.
However, since even ordinary photons can pass that supposedly impenetrable barrier, we can safely assume that other things can also pass it.

Phasers in general are denendant on an excotic, complicated chain reaction, commonly know as NDF (nucleonic diruption=conversion of atmos into neutrinos).
This theory conveniently explains the dissappearance effect of phasers (which is not vaporization or splitting of atoms, since both would release energy in at least the kiloton range, which it evidently does not) and their different reactions on objects of different density and mass (which DET can not explain).
It is easily imaginable how such a complicted chainreaction is stopped by temporal effects - but DET would not be affected by such a thing, since the energy has to GO somewhere.
Therefore, SW-DET weapons would not be negatively affected by such temporal displacement.

If you can show that photon-torpedoes are likewise affected, we can at least conclude that the temporal barrier has at least some effect on DET-weapons. However, this would still not conclusively proove that SW-DET-weapons are useless, sicne they are generally many orders of magnitude stronger.

[hunter5]

okay I'll try to make you see the light that way.

In voyager episode "shattered" chakotay's body was in a state of temporal flux and he had the liver of an 80 year old man and the kidneys of a 12 year old boy. Ensign kim refers to the krenim ship as being in a state of temporal flux. Similarly the ship was in a state of temporal flux and the fractured into different time periods. Each time period was divided by a temporal barrier. Look what happens when seska fires a phaser through the temporal barrier:



it's visually identical to what we see when ships phasers hit the temporal shielding of the krenim weapon ship. The phaser did not pass through the temporal barrior just like the phasers didn't penetrate the temporal shielding.

Chakotay was able to walk into other time periods and through the temporal barriers because he had a chronoton-infused serum. When chakotay passed through the temporal barrier he was no longer visible to seska but seska was visible to him. Additionally, the security officers weren't able to see janeway and chakotay after they passed through the temporal barrier but janeway and chakotay were able to see them.

In addition to the chronaton-infused serum making them able to pass through the temporal barrier it also allows them to see beyond the barrier. Similarly, voyager having temporal shields allows the krenim ship to be visible beyond its temporal shielding to voyager. The krenim weapon is capable of interacting with the universe by using temporal technology similar to what chakotay used to pass from one time period to another.

They were essentially invulnerable to all conventional weapons on the other side of temporal barrier and it was still possible to be visible and interact between the barriers using temporal technology.

Big difference between the two is we can see the time ship though it's shields so you can't make a comparison. Nice try though.

[marsh8472]

Even if you can show that they were also not damaged by photon torpedoes - so what, those two weapons are barely in the kiloton-range

photons are in the megaton range.

You DID provide visual evidence that phasers do not work against objects affected by Trek-"space-time displacement" (further abreviated TSTD).
That does NOT show that TSTD is equal to being "really outside of space time" (futher abreviated ROST) - and even that would have the effects you claim (technobabble-impossibility-time-shit, abreviated TITS).

In order to make an argument, you have to show that TSTD equals TITS or at least ROST.
So far, you only provided dialogue-claims for TSTD and visual evidece for something that might be attributed to TSTD.

I'm just sticking with the visual facts shown when vessels are in temporal flux. Being outside of space-time is another matter.

Here's the proof that the temporal field would also stop torpedoes too. In voyager episode "Deadlock" voyager is separated into two duplicates that occupy the same space. When a Vidiian ship locates voyager, they say that the ship is in some sort of flux. They fire photons at voyager and there was no damage done to the other voyager. Voyager initiated a self-destruct that did not damage the other voyager either. So this could prove that the temporal field can protect them from photons and a warp core breach. A warp core breach is more powerful than all of voyager's photons combined.

Big difference between the two is we can see the time ship though it's shields so you can't make a comparison. Nice try though.

voyager was only shown to be able to see the timeship when it had its temporal shields online.

[Batman]

Even if you can show that they were also not damaged by photon torpedoes - so what, those two weapons are barely in the kiloton-range

photons are in the megaton range.

As evidenced by-what, exactly?

Here's the proof that the temporal field would also stop torpedoes too. In voyager episode "Deadlock" voyager is separated into two duplicates that occupy the same space. When a Vidiian ship locates voyager, they say that the ship is in some sort of flux. They fire photons at voyager and there was no damage done to the other voyager. Voyager initiated a self-destruct that did not damage the other voyager either. So this could prove that the temporal field can protect them from photons and a warp core breach. A warp core breach is more powerful than all of voyager's photons combined.

All of VOY's photorps combined amount to roughly 18MT assuming a torpedo load of 40 (while VOY fired considerably MORE torpedoes than that during her stay in the Delta Quadrant there's no evidence I know of for her ever having more than 40 PTs AT ANY GIVE TIME.
Not that that is particularly impressive as the detonation of the impulse engines of a TOS-era Constitution-class would result in a 97 MT event as per 'The Doomsday Machine' leave alone compared to the firepower of a Star Wars Clone Wars era troop transport. (200GT per battery, possibly per barrel. That's 400,000 to 1,600,000 photon torpedoes per shot (happily ignoring that unlike turbolasers, photorps usually waste most of their yield on empty space) for a SINGLE battery.)

Big difference between the two is we can see the time ship though it's shields so you can't make a comparison. Nice try though.

voyager was only shown to be able to see the timeship when it had its temporal shields online.

Err-hello? We were able to see the TimeShip ALL THE TIME. It was most certainly NOT invisible to observers off VOY nor to observers ON VOY before they got time shields.