ARGH! Force-Wielding Species!

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Is it just me or has then been a recent (ok its been going on for a decade) flooding of "Force using/repelent" creatures in the EU? They all simply butcher what the Force is all about, as far as GL and the movies is concerned. In case somebody forgot Yoda's sagly advice "The Force is in everything, it surrounds us, binds us together." If we are to believe this, everything is in the Force. Yoda goes on about how its in rocks, trees, X-Wings ( ) and what not. However one needs training in the Force to wield it, it's not something you just get for being a specific animal! ARGH!

We'll start small. Timothy Zahn, as great and god-like as he was (as far as his SW books are concerned) was the first to violate this rule. Ysalamri, the creatures that creat Force-repelant bubbles around themselves. We all know em, and we all know they were just a plot device involving controlling Joruus C'Baoth, but nonetheless, they vilolate this rule. If the Force is in everything, how is it that they can exsist?

The Yuuzhan Vong, there bad enough for even exsisting, and coincidently they aren't! If we are to believe the canon evidence brought ot us in the films, by any rate. They are seemingly "outside the Force." Again, this is simply a plot device so that the Jedi won't whip up on em. But again, they viloate this rule.

Timothy, Timothy, you went and done it again, you did! Vonskrs (sp?) are a starnge wolf like species of animal, they somehow have a connection to the Force that helps them hunt. This is the reason why Ysalamari are Force-replelant. How can they wield the Force? It isn't said. They certaintly shouldn't be able to. They can't train in using the Force, but we'll ignore that because in the end, it's all one big plot device!

In the new Power of the Jedi Sourcebook (RPG), a new species has been invented that can (gasp!) see through the Force. The Miraluke, a fully senitent, huminoid species. Because years of evolution has robbed them of their sight, they were "granted" the ability to see this way. How does the Force grant anything to anyone? Whos to say, but that isn't the point. The point is that they automaticly, from birth, can wield the Force at will. Nope no training for these fine fellow! They get a one way ticket to easy street!

WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO! How is it that evry EU writer (even TZ, sadly) finds it necessary to create a creature that can somehow wield/repel the Force so they can whip up on the poor Jedi? Thats all the use I'm seeing out of it, and quite frankly I don't like it, not one bit.

I beg you, begyou Eu writers, stop with this Malesting of the Force (TM) now! It has grown to become the worst cop-out in all of SW history!

[RayCav of ASVS]

I always thought that the slugs just had a property that manipulated the Force that prevented another being from doing so. They still have the Force, it's just that they possess a unique Force property that prevents Force interaction.

The YV can rot in hell, however

[Master of Ossus]

There is also a giant, slug-like creature in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter that cannot be felt with the Force. Worse, its flesh repels the force even after it has been killed.

As far as the Vornskyrs, they make perfect sense to me. They hunt using a rudimentary Force-awareness in order to locate their prey. This is not much more developed as a Force-talent than average people, although it is SLIGHTLY more developed. However, Vornskyrs cannot be trained because they are not sentient. Ysalimiri eventually evolved to help them survive with the Vornskyrs by learning to repel the Force. I have NO idea why the slug thing in DMSH would have evolved to protect itself from the Force, but apparently it did.

As far as the YV, they appear to be connected to something that is even deeper than the Force, of which the Force is merely a manifestation (ref. Edge of Victory). Remember that Jacen and Anakin have both learned to sense Yuuzhan Vong, albeit less completely than they could if the YV were visible through it. It strikes me as being likely that Ysalamiri and the slugs on Coruscant could also be detected by such methods, but that is fairly speculative.

On a related note, it is also possible for some Jedi to remove the Force-awareness of others. This does not appear to make them invisible to the Force, but it does prevent them from accessing their powers (ref. Marvel comics, Traitor). Incidentally, remember that Jacen was able to regain some rudimentary skills even before Vergere returned him to full power. This indicates that he, too, was able to tap into this "deeper force" that the YV are visible through.

[une]

You see, this is why I don't like the EU. They constantly try to trivialize everything that comes from the films in an attempt to try and top them. But of course instead of topping the films they just make asses of themselves cause their ideas are generally stupid to begin with.

[Jack Lain]

Ah. The EU is good. Has some great stories, it's the writers pulling the old bs routine that kills it. They seem to have lost the ability to write about characters and keep inventing scenarios to write about. Fucks with everything and makes for a bad show.

-Yeah I know, I'm slightly off topic, but I agree with you DGG. But I blame the lack on the imagination on the writers. They (GL et. al.) need to tighten up the requirements.

-Jack "likes EU, hates Lazy Ass Hack writers" Lain.

[Cal Wright]

Well, at least I am not alone in this world. Personally the Ysalamari and the Yuzhan Vong do not sit with me at all. I am a Star Wars uber freak. I don't really care for most other Sci Fi though. So reading these stories and having no Force is basically making it a Star Trek story or some other lame story that I don't read for a reason. Give me Star Wars. That's why I liked Cloak of Deception so much. Even as much as I, Jedi crawled up my skin, it was still great to see the Force in action. As far as the NJO goes, they have spent too much time trying to develop a way to use the Force. they pretty much fucked up in the beigining and now that ppl are whining and they aren't stellar sells, they are trying to make up for it.

[Master of Ossus]

Frankly, part of the problem with the EU is that there isn't really anyone who the Jedi can have trouble against. They can be overwhelmed by huge numbers of regular Joes, but that isn't very exciting. They can be killed by Dark Jedi, but the Galaxy is even more over-populated with Dark Jedi than it is with Force-untouchables. Frankly, only beings that are invisible to the Force stand an adequate chance against them without being UTERLY ridiculous. I admit that I had begun writing my book on SW even before TPM and NJO came out, but I independently came to the conclusion that only a Force-invisible group of beings could be used to fight Jedi in a reasonably exciting manner. Now, I tried harder to explain WHY my organization could not be sensed with the Force than the authors of NJO originally had, but I still was using them even before I knew about the Yuuzhan Vong.

[Howedar]

I guess the existance of all of these creatures could be invalidated (overriden by canon) based on Yoda's quote

[Master of Ossus]

I guess the existance of all of these creatures could be invalidated (overriden by canon) based on Yoda's quote

Hmmm... I don't think we can do that. The Yuuzhan Vong, Ysalamiri, and Vorskyrs are all fairly well explained as to why Yoda either would not know about them, or that he was ignoring them for the purposes of that statement. Remember that dialogue is always subjective. Even Yoda can be wrong, as we can see from AotC, ESB, and even RotJ.

[Howedar]

Notice the

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to prevent someone else from buying into this theory. I guess I probably should have waited, seen if anyone bought it, and then attacked them on their post. Concession granted.

[une]

Frankly, part of the problem with the EU is that there isn't really anyone who the Jedi can have trouble against. They can be overwhelmed by huge numbers of regular Joes, but that isn't very exciting. They can be killed by Dark Jedi, but the Galaxy is even more over-populated with Dark Jedi than it is with Force-untouchables. Frankly, only beings that are invisible to the Force stand an adequate chance against them without being UTERLY ridiculous. I admit that I had begun writing my book on SW even before TPM and NJO came out, but I independently came to the conclusion that only a Force-invisible group of beings could be used to fight Jedi in a reasonably exciting manner. Now, I tried harder to explain WHY my organization could not be sensed with the Force than the authors of NJO originally had, but I still was using them even before I knew about the Yuuzhan Vong.

Is that how the EU is presenting them now? Well, I would think that taking down a jedi wouldn't be to hard for a normal person with the right training. Jango did pretty well against Obi in AOTC and if he had some prep time I think he could have beat Obi.

Also, couldn't a specially made droid be used to defeat a jedi? I mean a super strong, super fast droid could be a mtach for a normal jedi if you go by what's in canon.

[Master of Ossus]

Yes, Jango did reasonably well, but he had help, and his equipment surprised Kenobi. Droids can be built to fight Jedi (ref. Vision of the Future), but they tend to be very expensive and flawed in some way. In order to make them able to fight Jedi, they have to sacrifice certain things that make other fighting droids powerful.

Incidentally, if you make someone who can ONLY fight Jedi, it limits the scope of the danger--which is not a good thing in SW. In Vision it was okay, because the droids were there to protect the real threat--the Thrawn clone. They were not the threat in and of themselves. In most cases, it is very difficult to write a story if all you have is a murderer (or something) that is only after Jedi, but that really has no plan for taking over the Galaxy, etc. It is very difficult to write a book without a danger to more than an immediate character in the book. There must at least be a threat of violence against other people, or the character must be VERY well done. It is far easier to merely have a threat of force against the greater good, than it is to merely have a threat against a single person.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Fine so the Vonskyrs have a slightly developed Force talent. Fine, no problem. But the Ysalamiri evolvedto repel the Force? I don't remember the Force having anything to do with evolution. The Force has its good old mystical qualities, and I don't need no "evolution' theory about the Force coming in and Treking it up!

As for the YV, I'll take what you say as correct, as I haven't read an NJO book since Vector Prime. Although I plan to get around to going out and reading Traitor soon

And I do remember about removing Force powers, its happened a few times. I believe Nomi Sunrider removed Ulic-Qel Droma's Force powers. And Calista (somehow) had her Force powers dissapear. However in Dromas case, he trained with Nomi's daughter, Vima, and regained some of his Force powers back, and I'm pretty sure there was no "deeper Force" nonsense involved either. Calista similarly eventually gained her Force abilities back, albeit she could only tap into the Dark Side, and again there was no "deeper Force" jibbrish used.

I have my doubts about Force buisness still, any of your speculations, Ossus, involves strange evolution theories, and Force this weird, "deeper Force" nonsense, which isn't necesarily the answer to these questions. I still don't like it one bit.

[une]

Yes, Jango did reasonably well, but he had help, and his equipment surprised Kenobi. Droids can be built to fight Jedi (ref. Vision of the Future), but they tend to be very expensive and flawed in some way. In order to make them able to fight Jedi, they have to sacrifice certain things that make other fighting droids powerful.

You don't have to be trained specially to fight jedi, just a well trained, and well armed fighter. Jango was all of those, he was armed with all purpose equipment and he was a well trained fighter. All of that allowed him to bypass alot of Obi's force advantages. Basically any human with the drive and intelligence in the Star wars universe should be able to compete with jedi.

Regarding droids, allowing them to have a flaw that a jedi can overcome is nothing more than a plot device. Guri was capable of fighting jedi, and I'm sure that if you were to redesign her, take out all the useless crap, you would get a pretty good jedi fighter.

I blame any problems in finding enemies for the Jedi to fight the fault of the EU authors uncreativity and over powering of the jedi.

Incidentally, if you make someone who can ONLY fight Jedi, it limits the scope of the danger--which is not a good thing in SW. In Vision it was okay, because the droids were there to protect the real threat--the Thrawn clone. They were not the threat in and of themselves. In most cases, it is very difficult to write a story if all you have is a murderer (or something) that is only after Jedi, but that really has no plan for taking over the Galaxy, etc. It is very difficult to write a book without a danger to more than an immediate character in the book. There must at least be a threat of violence against other people, or the character must be VERY well done. It is far easier to merely have a threat of force against the greater good, than it is to merely have a threat against a single person.

I'm confused, where did you get the idea I was talking about a character that could only kill jedi? That of course wouldn't be his/her ony purpose, it'd just be a facet of that character. Definitely not their entire purpose.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Frankly, the problem with the EU is the writers are lazy. Why is it necesary for the YV to be "outside" the Force? Why couldn't they just be really good fighters? Maybe some elite YV to fight Jedi, whatever. Of course having them be good fighters vs. being outside the Force, at first glance one would think that this deeper Force mumbo jumbo adds more "depth" to the story, but its really just a testiment to there laziness. Now certaintly making them just tougher fighters would be similarly lazy, after all you're not even making up some ridiculous plot point of some other mistifying energy field other than the Force, right? Or maybe they could something a little more clever, I don't know like...strange bio-implants giving them super human strength, speed, and agility, whatever.

I just don't think EU writers should just create there own little all- encompassing anit-Force thingys, or even worse some deeper Force? Pardon my french but WTF! If GL were dead he'd be rolling in his grave! Maybe thisis why he treats as a seperate universe, or at least feels the need to contradict it at his pleasing. It completely destroys his vsion of the Force! ARGH! Since I seriously doubt hes gonna throw some "deeper Force" crap at us in EpIII. These EU writers aren't even adhering to GLs view of it! AAAAARRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

Ok, well I think I'm finished ranting now. But it is stillridiculous.

[Master of Ossus]

Personally, I think that in order for the YV to be able to fight Jedi and still be visible to the Force, they would have to be like Zerg or Aliens, in that they would attack in huge numbers in the hope of overwhelming the Jedi. After a point, fighting skills become ridiculous. Can *all* Yuuzhan Vong really be better than Jango Fett? By a lot?

[consequences]

The Yuuzhan vong could have been made force resistant a lot more believably than this invisibility crap. Or maybe their whole psyche revolves around pain so much that it is difficult for a jedi to sense their intentions through it.

[SPOOFE]

All these complaints about "ruining" the Force, and nobody mentions "midichlorians"?

Face it, it's not the EU that's ruining the Jedi mystique.

[une]

All these complaints about "ruining" the Force, and nobody mentions "midichlorians"?

Face it, it's not the EU that's ruining the Jedi mystique.

Midichlorians aren't that bad. I'm surprised most people hated them that much, it's not like they were the Force.