Heaven Runs out of Room
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
Why would anyone in his right mind worship something that condemned him to eternal torture just for being alive? Yes, most atheists would start believing in God if the evidence was there, but believing in the existence of something and worshipping it are two different things. If anything I'd expect this scenario to see large deconversions of religious people, because they now know worshipping God won't do anything for them anymore (though I expect large numbers would still adopt some variant of sticking their heads in the sand and going "it isn't true, it isn't true.").brianeyci wrote:I believe the question of the op is whether athiests would start worshipping God. If incontrivertiable proof of God existed, athiests could convert in large numbers.
It was said that the machine gun took the romance out of combat. Aiming said machine gun at the Heavenly Host to wrest free will from God certainly seems to have brought it back.Darth Wong wrote:Good old human nature. Give us a responsibility, and we will hem, haw, or bury our heads in the sand. But give us an enemy, especially an ultimate enemy like this one, and we will fight to the end.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
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Makes me think of the first two lines opening a song by a Swedish power metal band, Sabaton, the song being Primo Victoria (First Victory).
Through the Gates of Hell!
As we cut our way to Heaven!
Through the Gates of Hell!
As we cut our way to Heaven!
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
- CaptainChewbacca
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We will build a tower to heaven with the bodies of our enemies!
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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God was concerned enough about the effort of some bronze-age tribes with mud bricks to take active measures to stop it. That should tell you something.Ryan Thunder wrote:Didn't we already try something like that? And fail? :wtf:
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
- Patrick Degan
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A couple hundred million demons against 6 billion humans. We've got the manpower reserve to handle the legions of Hell several times over.Setzer wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_ ... _of_demons
according to Alfonso de Spina, there are 133,316,666 demons in hell.
Johaan Weyer, in his Pseudomonarchia Daemonum (1583) after a complicated system of hierarchies and calculations, estimated the number of demons in 44,435,622, divided in 666 legion, each legion composed by 6,666 demons, and all of them ruled by 66 hellish dukes, princes, kings, etc.
Unfortunately, the numbers changed with each edition of Weyer's book.
Either way, we're up against quite a few demons. Fortunately, humans are more prolific.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.
Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'
Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)
Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'
Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)
Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.White Haven wrote:Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
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While you make alot of sense, one of the key traits of demons is that they are fundamentally uncapable of changing, at least with respect to their revolt against God. While humans may accept or reject God many times during their lives, for demons it was a one-time choice.Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.
There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
Being incapable of changing your mission parameters doesn't mean you can't come up with new technologies to accomplish it. Depending on the nature and capabilities of Hell when it's discovered, declaring war on it may be about as smart as picking a fight with a modern nation (or future one, for that matter) with the ability to make its soldiers invisible and immortal.
However, if we consider it, we have several billion souls that we may be able to "sell" to Satan in order to get the means to fight ethereal beings. Then again, now that everyone's going there regardless, he may reject all such offerings as worthless, not to mention the obvious step of not giving people the ability to harm him in the process anyway.
That's if he does such deals in the first place.
However, if we consider it, we have several billion souls that we may be able to "sell" to Satan in order to get the means to fight ethereal beings. Then again, now that everyone's going there regardless, he may reject all such offerings as worthless, not to mention the obvious step of not giving people the ability to harm him in the process anyway.
That's if he does such deals in the first place.
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Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
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Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.White Haven wrote:Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?CaptainChewbacca wrote:The thing is, that 130+ million demons is almost 100% combatants. I seriously doubt 20th century earth can, without any prep, field a similar number of troops.
Isolation, for a start. And if beings can be summoned up and commanded by a book of magic words and phrases, that indicates that they've not changed all that much in the last five thousand years. That is, after all, what the Ars Goetia is about.There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
BTW, that hands humanity yet another weapon or at least a means of confounding the enemy or learning their secrets, since once summoned and bound under the proper incantations, the demon must obey its summoner and answer all questions put to it. Far more efficient and quicker than waterboarding.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
- The Duchess of Zeon
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This means we'd have advanced knowledge of every single thing they'd be planning.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
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Uhh, Jehovah can create violate conservation of energy, creating matter from nothing. And, presumably, antimatter, if he created the whole universe. That would present some trouble.Patrick Degan wrote:Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.Zuul wrote:Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.White Haven wrote: Evidence? We know that Hell employs a truly phenomenal amount of torturers and other such nastiness. Why should all of them be fully-capable warrior types as well?
Assuming demons can't specify a deal we can't meet in exchange for the data. Or, more likely, a deal that would require us to corrupt ourselves, and possibly advance their cause.Isolation, for a start. And if beings can be summoned up and commanded by a book of magic words and phrases, that indicates that they've not changed all that much in the last five thousand years. That is, after all, what the Ars Goetia is about.There's also the potential for the demons to have their own sciences (the Ars Goetia has several demons with knowledge of science and the future, for instance, as well as all the major ones commanding "legions" of lesser demons), after all, they're meant to roam the Earth unseen and in dark places, influencing people to war and debauchery. We may be vastly underestimating their intelligence and social evolution. Why would demons remain the same and only humans change, anyway?
BTW, that hands humanity yet another weapon or at least a means of confounding the enemy or learning their secrets, since once summoned and bound under the proper incantations, the demon must obey its summoner and answer all questions put to it. Far more efficient and quicker than waterboarding.
(The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy; no more, no less.)
Also, if God isn't cooperating, the assorted Catholic-style methods of controlling demons might not work, which would definitely be a bit of a setback.
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Jehovah can also be driven off by iron chariots. Not very impressive for a being which can supposedly violate the laws of physics at will as you would have it —which, BTW, is not supported by what is written regarding his alleged miracles, or even the creation.Gullible Jones wrote:Uhh, Jehovah can create violate conservation of energy, creating matter from nothing. And, presumably, antimatter, if he created the whole universe. That would present some trouble.Patrick Degan wrote:Going by what's been described in the biblical texts, their "pretty cool abilities" have already been outstripped by modern technology.Zuul wrote: Well, if they're fallen angels, they've been in at least one war with other immortals, and if they're Lilith's offspring, they're still asserted to have some pretty cool abilities.
Um, nope. The incantations and rituals in the Ars indicate that the demon is bound once summoned to the circle. It is, of course, the responsibility of the magus to keep control of the exchange but again that's the point of the book.Assuming demons can't specify a deal we can't meet in exchange for the data. Or, more likely, a deal that would require us to corrupt ourselves, and possibly advance their cause.
Nothing indicates that the rituals would be rendered ineffective by God's lack of cooperation. Indeed, it is already a violation of his edicts to even be fooling with magick in the first place yet that supposedly does not prevent the incantations from working.Also, if God isn't cooperating, the assorted Catholic-style methods of controlling demons might not work, which would definitely be a bit of a setback.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
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I have an idea...but it involves a giant robot, a drill, red paint, weird sunglasses, and using the phrase "...pierce the heavens!".
As for what hell Hell has to combat mankind with, I would at least plan for stuff out of 40k. It'd suck if we planned for a bunch of spear toting and totally killable demons but got a Bloodthirster instead wouldn't you say?
As for what hell Hell has to combat mankind with, I would at least plan for stuff out of 40k. It'd suck if we planned for a bunch of spear toting and totally killable demons but got a Bloodthirster instead wouldn't you say?
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Doesn't the Bible describe the weapons that are used when Jesus comes back? The guy comes back with a sword in his mouth. Don't you think that if a guy could upgrade from a sword in his mouth to 120mm smoothbore, he would have done so? It seems to me that their technology is in stasis.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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I've actually seen plenty of fundies try and excuse such things as "ancient man seeing modern stuff but having to describe it using words the ancient people would understand". Seriously, I've heard them insist things in the bible like dragons are really a 2000 year ago ignoramous trying to describe having a vision of a modern jet.Darth Wong wrote:Doesn't the Bible describe the weapons that are used when Jesus comes back? The guy comes back with a sword in his mouth. Don't you think that if a guy could upgrade from a sword in his mouth to 120mm smoothbore, he would have done so? It seems to me that their technology is in stasis.
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"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart