Brownback: "Abortions for Rape Victims? I don't think s

[Darth Wong]

What the fuck made you think your worthless "oh, it's totally correct but I still don't liiiiiike it!" whine had any conceivable value in this thread in the first place? It's not as if this is the first time you've pulled something like this, Skelron.

[Plekhanov]

I guess "parasite" is a more apt term after all, although heavy pregnency is relatively brief as the foetus rapidly grows into a complete infant before birth.

That's very easy for someone who'll never have to worry about actually going through a pregnancy to say, I'd love to see you try that line on someone actually going through a difficult pregnancy.

You speak very authoritatively for someone who clearly doesn't know what the hell you're blithering about, what the hell is 'heavy pregnency' (sic) even supposed to be?

How exactly do you feel the symbiotic relationship leads to "emotional damage" after late abortions?

Are you fucking kidding me? I think the mother and unborn child form a bond as soon as the child moves about within the womb[/quote]
On what grounds to you think that? Is it not possible that some women, particularly those who have been trying to get pregnant, feel bonded to their foetus from the moment they find out they're pregnant and that others never develop a bond?

and you have to take into account the profound evolutionary mechanism that makes the mother protect her unborn child at all costs, when it essentially becomes it's own entity...

And what you should learn to take into account is individual human variability, some women protect their foetus 'at all costs' but by no means all do others smoke and drink and generally couldn't give a crap.

Contrary to what you seem to think human beings, including pregnant ones, are not mindless drones who invariably follow 'evolutionary mechanisms' to the letter. Even the most ardent advocate of evolutionary psychology I've ever encountered has only argued that it gives us strong 'tendencies' to act in certain ways not hard and fast inviolable compulsions.

[Cairber]

Parasitic is a more apt term. The mother gains nothing physically. Her nutrient supplies are taken, her vision becomes impaired, her gums bleed and nose is stuffy from hormones, water is retained and heart burn is very common, her digestive system is a mess from hormones...this list goes on and on.

How exactly do you feel the symbiotic relationship leads to "emotional damage" after late abortions?

No parasitic is a very insulting and dismissive term that really gets me mad, it's a term that is likely to alienate.

When my Sister Miscarried I didn't, and she didn't, lose a parasite that had invaded her body. I lost my unborn Nephew and she lost her unborn Son. Thats not a scientific viewpoint, thats the viewpoint of her emotional state, for the rest of her life, she will at times mourn that lost child, and when you use the term Parasite, it feels like you are spitting at that loss and trying to lessen it in someway.

I do support abortion, and will continue to do so, but I hate that term, because in using it, you are seemingly dismissing a very real loss that people can suffer through. At least thats how I see it, so before you phrase your argument in that way, do try and think. You can lose an argument despite having the facts on your side, because people are not entirely rational beings.

(As a side point, my sister has since given birth to a wonderful baby girl.)

There are mom out there who get up in arms when you use the word "fetus" to describe their baby. I kind of think of this type of rant as the same thing really.

I've been pregnant twice. I loved my pregnancies and I look forward to my last one some day in the future and i love my children more than anything in the world; however, "parasite" is just a term to describe a situation in which one organism has very little to gain from the "symbiotic relationship."

Yes, I would have been devistated had I lost any of my children, but that would not change the fact that my nutrients stores were depleted, my energy taken, my digestive system a complete wreck, etc.

[Cairber]

Contrary to what you seem to think human beings, including pregnant ones, are not mindless drones who invariably follow 'evolutionary mechanisms' to the letter. Even the most ardent advocate of evolutionary psychology I've ever encountered has only argued that it gives us strong 'tendencies' to act in certain ways not hard and fast inviolable compulsions.

I agree. This is what I was trying to say.

The thing that gets me the most about abortion law (and debates a lot of the time, too) is that it makes it all cut and dry when it is not even close to that. Restrictions on late term abortions take a situation that should be decided between a mother and doctor and put it in law. How can law decide what is really a life threatening situation? How can law dictate exactly how ill a fetus has to be before it is ill enough to be aborted?

[Vendetta]

The thing that gets me the most about abortion law (and debates a lot of the time, too) is that it makes it all cut and dry when it is not even close to that. Restrictions on late term abortions take a situation that should be decided between a mother and doctor and put it in law. How can law decide what is really a life threatening situation? How can law dictate exactly how ill a fetus has to be before it is ill enough to be aborted?

Indeed, current British abortion law allows for terminations after the legal "on request" cutoff (which at 22 weeks is already one of the latest in the world) if it is advised by a Doctor.

[Vendetta]

Ghetto edit, 24 weeks.

[Darth Wong]

I guess "parasite" is a more apt term after all, although heavy pregnency is relatively brief as the foetus rapidly grows into a complete infant before birth.

That's very easy for someone who'll never have to worry about actually going through a pregnancy to say, I'd love to see you try that line on someone actually going through a difficult pregnancy.

Do you have any more experience in this area than he does, Mr. Authority?

My wife had a difficult pregnancy with David, and she wouldn't have freaked out if I pointed out that the fetus was sucking her dry and acting like a parasite. As far as I can tell, this "OUTRAGE! YOU SAID PARASITE!" tangent is nothing more than an opportunity for people to pretend they're righteous.

[Big Orange]

I guess "parasite" is a more apt term after all, although heavy pregnency is relatively brief as the foetus rapidly grows into a complete infant before birth.

That's very easy for someone who'll never have to worry about actually going through a pregnancy to say, I'd love to see you try that line on someone actually going through a difficult pregnancy.

Do you have any more experience in this area than he does, Mr. Authority?

My wife had a difficult pregnancy with David, and she wouldn't have freaked out if I pointed out that the fetus was sucking her dry and acting like a parasite. As far as I can tell, this "OUTRAGE! YOU SAID PARASITE!" tangent is nothing more than an opportunity for people to pretend they're righteous.

I realise that humans are complicated and higher functioning enough to go against their evolutionary programming, but I still think there are still strong instincts around pregnancy. Sure an irresponsible pregnant woman would smoke, since smoke is not an obvious threat; however if you press a gun or knife against the heavily pregnant stomach of a expected mother, the mother would naturally feel for her unborn baby...

[Darth Wong]

That's very easy for someone who'll never have to worry about actually going through a pregnancy to say, I'd love to see you try that line on someone actually going through a difficult pregnancy.

Do you have any more experience in this area than he does, Mr. Authority?

My wife had a difficult pregnancy with David, and she wouldn't have freaked out if I pointed out that the fetus was sucking her dry and acting like a parasite. As far as I can tell, this "OUTRAGE! YOU SAID PARASITE!" tangent is nothing more than an opportunity for people to pretend they're righteous.

I realise that humans are complicated and higher functioning enough to go against their evolutionary programming, but I still think there are still strong instincts around pregnancy. Sure an irresponsible pregnant woman would smoke, since smoke is not an obvious threat; however if you press a gun or knife against the heavily pregnant stomach of a expected mother, the mother would naturally feel for her unborn baby...

What the fuck does that have to do with anything I said?

[Cairber]

Sure an irresponsible pregnant woman would smoke, since smoke is not an obvious threat

I challenge you to go read the March of Dimes website and then come back here and try to assert this again.

[lance]

Sure an irresponsible pregnant woman would smoke, since smoke is not an obvious threat

I challenge you to go read the March of Dimes website and then come back here and try to assert this again.

I think if it was an obvious threat research would be unnecessary.

[Cairber]

Sure an irresponsible pregnant woman would smoke, since smoke is not an obvious threat

I challenge you to go read the March of Dimes website and then come back here and try to assert this again.

I think if it was an obvious threat research would be unnecessary.

It's an obvious threat to anyone who has read about or experienced pregnancy...or anyone who has not lived under a rock for the last few decades. How could anyone possibly not know about the devastating effects of low birth weight and premature birth? It doesn't take a text book on the reproduction to know that premature birth is one of the greatest threats to infants. Just look on the fucking cigarettes; it clearly states that it leads to premature birth and low birthweight.

[NecronLord]

I realise that humans are complicated and higher functioning enough to go against their evolutionary programming, but I still think there are still strong instincts around pregnancy.

Which are not rock solid in the way you imply. Women do after all, choose to have abortions. And where it's illegal, they'll do all sorts of 'obvious threat' things like throwing themselves down stairs, injecting poisons, inserting dangerous objects, paying big burly men to administer beatings... Horrible, but true, and easily putting lie to that claim. Humans have instincts, but 'maternal instinct' is not so strong that it renders your claim viable, or turns women into some kind of slaves to their wombs.

As for "Parasite," I'm sure AV or someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall, the formal biological definition of Parasitism explicitly states that a parasite is a different species from the host, presumably to preclude the use of the word to describe reproductive relationships. Of course, offspring can still be parasites, according to a wider definition, when they're sixty. *Peers at his ever-drunk uncles*

Of course, it's not symbiosis, either. Symbiosis, again, occurs between different species - Mutualism, for example with a bumblebee pollinating a flower - is symbiosis. A pride of lions or mound of termites working together for mutual benefit is simply community.

[Plekhanov]

I guess "parasite" is a more apt term after all, although heavy pregnency is relatively brief as the foetus rapidly grows into a complete infant before birth.

That's very easy for someone who'll never have to worry about actually going through a pregnancy to say, I'd love to see you try that line on someone actually going through a difficult pregnancy.

Do you have any more experience in this area than he does, Mr. Authority?

My wife had a difficult pregnancy with David, and she wouldn't have freaked out if I pointed out that the fetus was sucking her dry and acting like a parasite. As far as I can tell, this "OUTRAGE! YOU SAID PARASITE!" tangent is nothing more than an opportunity for people to pretend they're righteous.

I was referring my desire to see Orange try his line about how 'heavy pregnency is relatively brief' line on someone experiencing a difficult pregnancy as it’s the kind of arrogant dismissal of what some pregnant women go through that’s so common amongst anti-choice males.

I have no problem with referring to foetuses as parasites and can certainly see how some pregnant women may regard their foetuses, particularly if unwanted, as ‘parasites’.