Agent Smith vs Mace Windu

[Illuminatus Primus]

And Halcyon had just been stabbed in the back w/ a lightsabre when he was able to do that--and Windu is even better then him.

[Darth Wong]

A superbattledroid is undoubtedly as tough as Smith if not tougher (I doubt that anti-personnel minigun would kill it, while it killed Smith easily). If Windu can rip apart a superbattledroid's innards and disable it with a thought, he can do the same to Smith.

The fact that the Agent is not human means that Windu won't be held back by any scruples; he can treat it as he would a machine.

[Gil Hamilton]

Question, is this happening in the Matrix or what?

[Darth Wong]

Question, is this happening in the Matrix or what?

Does it matter? Smith is supposed to be superhuman but not able to come back in another body, and Windu has all his abilities but no external support either. Those are the ground rules.

[Gil Hamilton]

Does it matter? Smith is supposed to be superhuman but not able to come back in another body, and Windu has all his abilities but no external support either. Those are the ground rules.

It does matter. For Mace Windu, it's the Force, an energy field that is radiated by the universe around him that he manipulates for various effects. The Matrix is not the real world, it's a a computer simulation piped straight into the brain via a neural connect. Since the "world" around a person within the Matrix isn't real but rather a simulation, it doesn't generate the Force. With no Force to manipulate, Windu is screwed.

Likewise, Agent Smith is a computer program that only has any power within the Matrix, as the source of his powers are the ability to bend, but not break, the rules of the Matrix. If Agent Smith was made human and plonked into the real world, he has absolutely no power, since the real world is not the Matrix and cannot be manipulated by him.

Location determines everything in this fight.

[Slartibartfast]

It is the Precog capability that allows Jedi to dodge bullets and blasters. They can see where the shot is going to happen and they can react to it quickly enough to avoid being directly in the path. The person firing can not adjust their aim because typically the Jedi can move faster. On the other hand Agents can not react to something that has not happened yet. What they must do is SEE the object coming at them, determine that it is heading straight for them, and dodge out of the way. This requires incredibly fast reflexs, fast mental comprehension, and the ability to move the entire body at high speeds. This is supported by the fact that they can move so fast as to appear to be in multiple places at once.

What happens is that Smith is thinking about making an attack on Windu. Windu has precog of this and prepares himself, maybe even starting to react. Smith attacks, but as he is making his move he SEES that Windu is going for a block. Smith now alters his attack. Windu can not react quickly enough and is hit by Smith.

Now, some of you are going to see that Windu will see the ULTIMATE attack that Smith makes and block that. The problem is that Smith will see such a block being made and will alter his attack. Simple fact of the mater is that smith is to fast for Windu to defeat.

6 hours later...

Mace keeps drawing lines in the air while trying to anticipate for Smith's bullet, while Agent Smith keeps making corrections. Not a single bullet has been fired. There doesn't seem to be an end to this.

End result: a tie!

[Darth Wong]

Location determines everything in this fight.

Fine, there's a localized Matrix-style computer system in which Windu's Force capabilities are accurately simulated, and the rules are enforced. Whatever.

[Slartibartfast]

It doesn't matter, the scenario implies that both can use their powers as seen in the movies. Whatever environment is required for this is a moot point. The "not coming back from the death" is obviously necessary since the only way to destroy an agent would be with some kind of hacker powers.

IMO, it's not that there's some kind of nullification of reincarnation powers, since this is some kind of duel. Like the subway scene: Neo DID kill Smith, had it been a fight for points or a trophy or whatever, the judges would have declared Neo the winner... too bad for Neo that wasn't the case

I think we would have to consider that hyper-running is not a Matrix power, or we'd have seen either an Agent or Neo use it during the chase after the subway.

[Omega-13]

My take on the entire event is that Agents can and do correct their aim and fire for super fast speeds
when you watch Neo dodging the bullets on the roof in Matrix, the agent firing at him, moves his bullets downward to follow Neo, finally clipping him in the arm and leg.

Ok i just watched the scene again, by the 2nd and 3rd bullet, they are already noticeably moving downward, not to mention, the agent is pumping off the rounds so fast, he has 2 or 3 in the air, in the span of 25 feet.

And watching the fight scene again, the guy just kicks ass, its important to remember, all of his punches, and kicks are capable of breaking through concrete, he fights regularly at this level


Obiwan's hand to hand combat with Jango was just pathetic, where were the force powers then? they certainly didn't let him stop that headbutt,
if that was Agent headbutting him, or a punch got through, he'd have a hole in his chest or head.

hand to hand, its not even a competition, with a light sabre, not sure how fast mace can deflect bullets coming at him that fast, as fast as an agent can pump them out

[Ghost Rider]

You still have to somehow to stop a Jedi's PRECOG...and since Agent Smith hardly showed this ability, I say Windu kicks his ass in this regard.

As a counterpoint...Windu faces Jango and handily destroys him while Obi-Wan let's him escapes...thus saying how come Obi-wan didn't see the head butt is pretty much a cop-out since Windu and Obi-Wan are not of the same levels

[Omega-13]

You still have to somehow to stop a Jedi's PRECOG...and since Agent Smith hardly showed this ability, I say Windu kicks his ass in this regard.

Agent Smith re-acts and acts a lot faster than any Jedi I've ever seen.
Yes Mace can see things in advance, but that doesn't mean he can do things about it, knowing something is going to happen, and getting out of harms way are 2 seperate issues.
The human body can only move so fast and do so much before exhaustion sets in, its very taxing on their bodies, they still sweat get tired, and breathe heavily.

So lets say he saw the bullets coming at him 2 seconds in advance, that doesn't mean he's going to be able to dodge them, especially at the rate of fire the agents can fire their weapons.

As a counterpoint...Windu faces Jango and handily destroys him while Obi-Wan let's him escapes...thus saying how come Obi-wan didn't see the head butt is pretty much a cop-out since Windu and Obi-Wan are not of the same levels

Yes perhaps, they are on different levels,
However, you never see them physically move their bodies as fast as agents move theirs, they'd have to twist and move their arms to bring their light sabres to the right place, not even yoda when fighting Dooku moved that fast

[Ghost Rider]

Bullets only go a certain speed...Jedi's have been shown to literally deflect weapon projectiles that move at a far greater rate than any normal handgun.

Though we have never seen them move as fast than an agent, we have seen that they can take on things that go above and beyond any human reaction timing(unless you want to say Vader, Dooku, and other were moving normal human speed....let alone the Droidekas)

[Omega-13]

Bullets only go a certain speed...Jedi's have been shown to literally deflect weapon projectiles that move at a far greater rate than any normal handgun.

what would that be? Mace coudln't even get out of the way of a huge beast running him down, he got pushed over, and lost his lightsabre

Though we have never seen them move as fast than an agent, we have seen that they can take on things that go above and beyond any human reaction timing(unless you want to say Vader, Dooku, and other were moving normal human speed....let alone the Droidekas)

Vader was a slow poke, Dooku was fast when fighting yoda, but not even close enough to deflect a bullet,

[Ghost Rider]

You're now blantantly using assumption to justfiy your basis, when there is proof Vader is faster than a blaster bolt and Jedi deflecting shots from things far faster than humans.

Look at TPM and ESB again...then come back with something decent to say than this bullshit.

[Moonstone Spider]

Where did any Jedi dodge something faster than bullets? Blaster bolts move more slowly than crossbow bolts, and fire far less often than minigun rounds.

I find this thread amusing considering I stomped these exact arguments already in the Maul vs. Neo debate on this forum, Maybe some people just forgot.

There is no such thing as Force-Speed. The entire scene of so-called proof of force speed in TPM takes place during a screen cut, you see them start to move and then the screen cuts, and then you see them at the end of a hallway. Awfully dishonest of some people to go around pretending there's real evidence when they have nothing but a scene change. For all we knew three days passed during that cut. Since force-speed is never used even in the most important and life-threatening situations in other movies, we can safely say they don't exist.

[Darth Wong]

Where did any Jedi dodge something faster than bullets? Blaster bolts move more slowly than crossbow bolts, and fire far less often than minigun rounds.

In AOTC, we can see blaster bolts moving at several kilometres per second, which is much faster than a round from an assault rifle.

I find this thread amusing considering I stomped these exact arguments already in the Maul vs. Neo debate on this forum, Maybe some people just forgot.

Or maybe (gasp) not everyone agreed with your own self-assessment of victory.

There is no such thing as Force-Speed. The entire scene of so-called proof of force speed in TPM takes place during a screen cut, you see them start to move and then the screen cuts, and then you see them at the end of a hallway.

Bullshit. Do you want me to digitize the sequence and post it so I can prove what a fucking liar you are?

Awfully dishonest of some people to go around pretending there's real evidence when they have nothing but a scene change. For all we knew three days passed during that cut.

More bullshit.

Since force-speed is never used even in the most important and life-threatening situations in other movies, we can safely say they don't exist.

Or we can safely say you're full of shit.

[Omega-13]

Question for Darth Wong
1. Where in AOTC do we see hand held blasters shooting their projectile at a few kilometers a second, that we saw stopped by a jedi?

-we've seen Jedi stop blaster bolts that travel much slower than a few kilometers a second, even though blaster bolts do exist that travel faster.

Much like AGent smith, who can dodge 2 handgun 9mm pistols at about 30 feet, with a muzzle velocity of about 1100 ft/s
but not a minigun firing rounds at 3000 ft/s

[Darth Wong]

Question for Darth Wong
1. Where in AOTC do we see hand held blasters shooting their projectile at a few kilometers a second, that we saw stopped by a jedi?

The ending battle, dumb-fuck. Watch how quickly those blaster bolts are moving back and forth between the two armies at the beginning.

-we've seen Jedi stop blaster bolts that travel much slower than a few kilometers a second, even though blaster bolts do exist that travel faster.

We've also seen that they start moving the blade before the trigger is pulled. Precognition is better than even the fastest reflexes. If the bolt goes faster, they will simply react accordingly. They don't think about it; they let the Force guide them.

Much like AGent smith, who can dodge 2 handgun 9mm pistols at about 30 feet, with a muzzle velocity of about 1100 ft/s but not a minigun firing rounds at 3000 ft/s

Too bad Jedi can block droid army blaster bolts moving at several km/s, then. Smith loses. And Smith never had to deal with TK before, so he loses BIG.

[Omega-13]

yes they are moving quickly, do we see a jedi block any of those? or are you just assuming they can?

Don't assume, its dangerous


That jedi who got killed when he went up to get Dooku, took 3 shots to get him, 2 were blocked, what happened there? And that bolt was going much slower than a few km a second, even slower than a bullet, much slower



only thing smith has going against him is TK

[Ghost Rider]

And there you are assuming and throwing away all the TPM evidence because it destroys your position.

So care to back that part up?

[Omega-13]

And there you are assuming and throwing away all the TPM evidence because it destroys your position.

So care to back that part up?

i missed that part?
What TPM evidence did I throw away?

We saw the jedi deflecting blasters from the droids, but those weren't going km/s

not the ones they were deflecting, we might have seen the blasters going much faster another time, but never deflected by a jedi

[Darth Wong]

yes they are moving quickly, do we see a jedi block any of those? or are you just assuming they can?

Don't assume, its dangerous

Speak for yourself, dumb-ass. One of the Jedi is clearly seen blocking a droid army shot as he marches toward the enemy lines after debarking from a LAAT (the green tentacle-headed guy).

That jedi who got killed when he went up to get Dooku, took 3 shots to get him, 2 were blocked, what happened there? And that bolt was going much slower than a few km a second, even slower than a bullet, much slower

It's a tracer; they always appear to take about the same time to reach the target even if it's several km away; didn't you notice that? And did you notice how durable he was, given that just one of those shots could take down that giant Reek? And did the bit about Dark siders clouding the Force escape your attention? How much of these movies did you actually bother watching?

only thing smith has going against him is TK

And strength, and precognition; Smith has never leapt up 30 feet in the air or sensed something before it happened.

[Omega-13]

My god man, and how far was the Jedi from the battle droid that shot it?


Mace didn't seem affected by the dark side when he deflected the blaster bolts as he jumped into the air, towards the ground, and that was right near Dooku. And before you jump and say (oh no, it was an extra 15 feet farther) Yoda even said the darkside clouds their ability to use the force, and he was far from any darkside user, so distance obviously doesn't have a factor.


From what I gather, you are suggesting that a Jedi would be able to deflect a minigun,
and that no matter how quick the flight time is, barrol to target, ,the jedi would be moving before it moves,

So i ask, ,why were the jedi that did die, get killed?
whats the reason for them?


As for your little wise ass comment about a jedi jumping 30 feet, yes and? An agent jumps 70 feet, building to building, no problems

[Darth Wong]

My god man, and how far was the Jedi from the battle droid that shot it?

Several kilometres. This takes place outside the arena. Did you WATCH this movie?

Mace didn't seem affected by the dark side when he deflected the blaster bolts as he jumped into the air, towards the ground, and that was right near Dooku. And before you jump and say (oh no, it was an extra 15 feet farther) Yoda even said the darkside clouds their ability to use the force, and he was far from any darkside user, so distance obviously doesn't have a factor.

Right, so Windu would have been even better if they hadn't lost some of their abilities. What part of this escapes your grasp?

From what I gather, you are suggesting that a Jedi would be able to deflect a minigun, and that no matter how quick the flight time is, barrol to target, ,the jedi would be moving before it moves,

No, I am suggesting that a Jedi can beat Agent Smith.

So i ask, ,why were the jedi that did die, get killed? whats the reason for them?

Obviously, overwhelmed by sheer weight of firepower and slowed by their loss of control over the Force.

As for your little wise ass comment about a jedi jumping 30 feet, yes and? An agent jumps 70 feet, building to building, no problems

When did we see an agent jumping 30 feet up in the air? Why couldn't Agent Smith get away from Neo's minigun even though he had several seconds to react?

[Ghost Rider]

i missed that part?
What TPM evidence did I throw away?

We saw the jedi deflecting blasters from the droids, but those weren't going km/s

not the ones they were deflecting, we might have seen the blasters going much faster another time, but never deflected by a jedi

Did you watch TPM, ESB, or AoTC or scan ImDB and get your conclusions from there?

I mean obviously Han shooting at Vader also means that he's a slowpoke, right?

For their abilities to deflect things rated at above bullet speeds...go back watch the whole scene where Obi-Wan and Qui Gon face off both Droidekas and the droid squad.

Course, you'll come back claiming they obviously weren't km/s because well they aren't