Movie: Colossus: The Forbin Project

[Vympel]

I saw this film yesterday- it's a 1969 film. For a brief rundown of the plot and some context:

http://www.feoamante.com/Movies/ABC/colossus.html

(though do ignore the writer of this reviews paranoid rantings of the dangers of AI)

http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/Rick/liz_cfp.htm

Another link, this one mentions how the films very downbeat ending caused its release to be held back until after 2001, in which case, Kubrick's film had already stolen much of its thunder.

I thought it fitted well into the Science and Logic part of this board.

Minor gripe:

- Terminator shamelessly ripped off either this movie adaptation or the book off which it was based. In Colossus, human decisions are removed from strategic defense by the US, and handed over to Colossus. In Terminator, the same thing happens with Skynet, as we learn in T2.

Now, some points:

1:

Why would you give complete and utter control of strategic defense (i.e.- the ICBMs) to a computer, with NO FAILSAFES? This is the height of idiocy. Nowhere in the Colossus design is there a single fail safe switch that allows the user of the system to terminate Colossus' control over the ICBMs.

2:
In the film, Colossus and Guardian (the Soviet counterpart)- who connect in the world's biggest LAN order the US and USSR to retarget the missiles on all nations over whom Colossus/Guardian do not have control. This gives the hapless US and USSR the opportunity to mess with the missiles and make them useless, declawing the uber-computers. I don't know much about 1969 ICBMs, but I do know that now when you retarget a missile you don't need to go right up to the missile and tinker with it's insides. Oh well, this can be forgiven I guess.

Can anyone think of a better way to disarm the missiles without Colossus/Guardian knowing?

Anyone else see this film? What did you think of it? Eric Braeden is a good actor

[Uraniun235]

1:

Why would you give complete and utter control of strategic defense (i.e.- the ICBMs) to a computer, with NO FAILSAFES? This is the height of idiocy. Nowhere in the Colossus design is there a single fail safe switch that allows the user of the system to terminate Colossus' control over the ICBMs.

2:
In the film, Colossus and Guardian (the Soviet counterpart)- who connect in the world's biggest LAN order the US and USSR to retarget the missiles on all nations over whom Colossus/Guardian do not have control. This gives the hapless US and USSR the opportunity to mess with the missiles and make them useless, declawing the uber-computers. I don't know much about 1969 ICBMs, but I do know that now when you retarget a missile you don't need to go right up to the missile and tinker with it's insides. Oh well, this can be forgiven I guess.

I have the entire trilogy, and love it. (they're my favorite books)

1) There may be people in power later on in American history that would seek to damage or destroy the nation. If this were so, they could issue commands to engage the failsafes, allowing them to override Colossus and act out of emotion. Or, a warmongering/paranoiac President might think Russia was out to attack the US, and when Colossus told him otherwise, he might override Colossus and launch anyway.

Similarly, if you've got some peace-hippy in office that would be so bad as to not even retaliate against an all-out nuclear attack, they could override Colossus and prevent retaliation.

Finally, human security is not totally failsafe. Someone might at some point learn how to transmit the failsafe codes, overriding Colossus and leaving the US defenseless against an attack.

The biggest advantage of Colossus was that he was untouchable by human hands... and to try to do so meant death.

2) I seem to recall something in the book about them "needing" to do some sort of diagnostic check on the missiles after the fact, but I'm not sure. But in the book (I haven't seen the movie yet... I want to, but NONE of the video rental places around here carry it!) Colossus detected the tampering and detonated a warhead next to LA when they started tampering with it.

I heavily recommend you read all three Colossus books.

[Vympel]

Where can I find them?

It's a really good movie IMO- Eric Braeden is DAMN good in the role.

In the film, Colossus let's them sabotage several ICBM batches but then detonates the missiles that they're currently sabotaging to let everyone know how in control he/it is.

[Typhonis 1]

Wargames seems to be in a simular vein alowing a computer to make strategic desicions till a kid hacks in and they start wargaming

[Vympel]

I still haven't seen Wargames, goddamit!

[neoolong]

I still haven't seen Wargames, goddamit!

What? You poor deprived child.

[kojikun]

Two ways to prevent Colossus and Guardian from starting armageddon:

1- unplug them
2- Tactical nukes

or for fun we can do both, just in case.

[Uraniun235]

kojikun - Clearly, you haven't read the books. (I don't know how the film portrays it)

If Colossus is attacked, he WILL retaliate; and if the wall surrouding Colossus was breached, he would launch an attack designed to annihilate as much of the human race as possible.

No sane person dares try to attack Colossus, and there's a semi-sizable military force present to prevent the insane from getting close enough. (One person tried a suicide run in a plane; they never got past the first line of defense).

As for cutting the power... IIRC Colossus has a backup reactor in the event external power is knocked out.

Vympel - I don't know if they're still in print, but I was able to find them at garage sales and used book stores.

EDIT: Amazon.com has them for sale.

[Admiral Piett]

In the film, Colossus let's them sabotage several ICBM batches but then detonates the missiles that they're currently sabotaging to let everyone know how in control he/it is.

It cannot possibly control everything that happens in the silos.What if someone simply cuts the power to the silos doors opening mechanisms?
It could still detonate them but it could not launch them anymore.

[Uraniun235]

Colossus also controls the SSBNs (which are robotic in the book) and I suspect that humanity, now under the grip of Colossus, would not be able to organize a large enough effort to kill the power to EVERY silo door in the world. Colossus would either detect/prevent attempts to tamper with the silo power, or learn of the global conspiracy to shut all his missiles down (which according to the books have something like 900% of the firepower needed (yes, 900) to wipe out all major forms of life on Earth) and stop it with his human police force that he has by the second book. Or. failing that, simply threaten human extinction if they continue with their plans.

It's also quite possible that the silo doors have backup power that allows them to function in the event that the mains are down.

[Vympel]

Indeed- in the film Colossus has cameras in every silo and monitors the teams performing missile maintenance- even with clever subterfuge Colossus still knows they're sabotaging the missiles.

[kojikun]

someone care to explain why unplugging or nuking the compruters wouldnt work?

[Vympel]

Colossus is impregnable- they put the damn thing (which is huge) in a mountain, completely untouchable my man (surrounded by all sorts of defenses).

Guardian, the Soviet version, is dispersed.

[kojikun]

ahh. unplug the power cord on colossus. launch a simple virus to nuke Guardian.

[Vympel]

I don't think they had them back in the 1960s

Colossus is completely self-contaned btw. Impregnable/ self-sufficient.

[Admiral Piett]

Indeed- in the film Colossus has cameras in every silo and monitors the teams performing missile maintenance- even with clever subterfuge Colossus still knows they're sabotaging the missiles.

Well that was one of many possibilities.There are a lot of systems in a ICBM silo that could be sabotaged preventing the launch of the missile,without having to touch the missile itself when it is the silo.Even if that does not work because every system in the silo is under control and there are too many silos,the missiles themeselves could be progressively sabotaged when they are sent to the Squadron Maintenance Area,where they are disassembled for periodic checks.I doubt that the computer would be able to notice if a few small defects are inserted here or there.And that would be all that is necessary.
And there are others options.

[Vympel]

Well that was one of many possibilities.There are a lot of systems in a ICBM silo that could be sabotaged preventing the launch of the missile,without having to touch the missile itself when it is the silo.Even if that does not work because every system in the silo is under control and there are too many silos,the missiles themeselves could be progressively sabotaged when they are sent to the Squadron Maintenance Area,where they are disassembled for periodic checks.I doubt that the computer would be able to notice if a few small defects are inserted here or there.And that would be all that is necessary.
And there are others options.

The computer was wired into absolutely everything going from the film- and it noticed the defects they were putting into the missile guidance systems unfortunately.

What about ... THOUSANDS of cement trucks ... if you get my drift

[Admiral Piett]

The computer was wired into absolutely everything going from the film- and it noticed the defects they were putting into the missile guidance systems unfortunately.
What about ... THOUSANDS of cement trucks ... if you get my drift

The guidance system is not what I was speaking about.Some not too well fixed pipe in the engines would do just the work.
It is difficult preventing missiles from going kaboom due to similar small defects,doing the opposite should not be a problem.
An alternate and probably far better option would be disabling the warheads when they are revised.
Hell,simply replace them with blank warheads.So even if it did firing exercise it would not be able to notice it.While it is not totally uncommon
doing firing exercises,tests which included the detonation of the warhead were very rare,for obvious reasons.
Silos have outdoor cameras,to which the computer would be certainly connected.Anything massive going out would be quickly noticed.
However it is not really necessary.
The computer would not have time to react if a truck is driven over the silos doors.Any attempt to open the silos doors would result in the truck falling over the missile,with nasty results for it.Coordination may be a problem here but an independent telephonic communication network could be set up for that.
All in all there is probably only the embarass of the choice.Since I do not want to lose sleep on "one hudred ways to disable an ICBM" I have listed just few.But there are probably quite literally one hundred of ways

[Uraniun235]

Oh, sure, you could disable a silo.

But you couldn't disable enough of them before Colossus realized what was going on, and launched a punitive strike.

ahh. unplug the power cord on colossus. launch a simple virus to nuke Guardian.

Nope. Moments after Colossus went offline, Guardian would likely launch every missile under his control... which according to the book was enough to wipe out humanity.

Besides, that's forgetting that he has redundant power lines, a backup reactor within the mountain (IIRC), and probably has a circuit designed to automatically launch all missiles in the event of power disconnect.

It is difficult preventing missiles from going kaboom due to similar small defects,doing the opposite should not be a problem.

Except that the people doing the sabotage, in earlier trial runs, couldn't tell the difference from the untampered and the tampered switches themselves when they ran an electronic check.

Colossus detected the minute differences. Los Angeles paid the price.

I imagine Colossus would have cameras installed at all maintenance positions, and would very carefully oversee all maintenance.

An alternate and probably far better option would be disabling the warheads when they are revised.

IIRC, that's what they did in the book.

Hell,simply replace them with blank warheads.

Colossus would know. They'd have to get the blank warhead there somehow, and I imagine Colossus kept strict checks on inventory and on what went into the facilities serving his arsenal.

The computer would not have time to react if a truck is driven over the silos doors.Any attempt to open the silos doors would result in the truck falling over the missile,with nasty results for it.

You couldn't coordinate that scale of operation without Colossus learning somehow. And let's assume that somehow you manage to drive a truck over every missile silo between the US and the USSR. That STILL leaves the submarine nukes. Considering that the two computers had between them 900% of the firepower needed to obliterate almost all life on Earth, you'd either need a hell of a lot of trucks, or you'd be screwed because there's probably at least 100% in the subs alone. (hell, the sub fleet is a MAJOR portion of our modern arsenal)

Whoops. Now humanity's dead. Congratulations.

[Vympel]

What was Colossus' objective in the books? In the films, it's basically the good of mankind (under it's direction, of course).

Since it was still basically carrying out it's prime directive, wouldn't nuking everyone be counterproductive?

[Uraniun235]

No. Humans can be an amazingly intractable organism, and stubborn to the point of stupidity, even to the point of being suicidal.

The only practical method of enforcing his rule was to back his orders up with the threat of the deadliest of force; that of his nuclear arsenal. Colossus nuked several cities before humanity really fell into line.

And it's not like Colossus could have bluffed, either; Colossus did not lie.

[Admiral Piett]

Except that the people doing the sabotage, in earlier trial runs, couldn't tell the difference from the untampered and the tampered switches themselves when they ran an electronic check.

This is exactly the reason for which I said "forget the guidance,go for the
engines".Obviously all the electronics would be under direct control of the computer.But some pipes not too well connected here or there would be hard or impossible to detect by a camera when the missile undergoes the periodic heavy maintenance.And that would be all that is necessary.

I imagine Colossus would have cameras installed at all maintenance positions, and would very carefully oversee all maintenance.

The missile is totally disassembled an the various components examined.
Just doing a not too good work at reassembling would probably be fatal.
The Challanger was lost to a slighty defective gasket.Missiles go kaboom despite the best efferts to prevent that.

They'd have to get the blank warhead there somehow, and I imagine Colossus kept strict checks on inventory and on what went into the facilities serving his arsenal.

Nuclear warheads need period refurbishments.Tritium has to be replaced every few years,and so on.That could be an occasion to disable them,by filling the pit that leads into the core of the fission primary device,for example.
If you manage to convince the computer that the warheads need to be replaced with newer ones the game is done.There is no way to keep under the control of a TV camera all the passages necessary to manufacture a nuclear weapon.
It would be rather difficult placing a TV camera into a nuclear reactor,a plutonium forge and similar places.Replace the plutonium/uranium with
an other material and the game is done.

You couldn't coordinate that scale of operation without Colossus learning somehow. And let's assume that somehow you manage to drive a truck over every missile silo between the US and the USSR.

For this reason I suggested building a separate telephonic line.Vehicles are not an uncommon sight near to missile silos.And remember that you do not have to use a single method.

That STILL leaves the submarine nukes. Considering that the two computers had between them 900% of the firepower needed to obliterate almost all life on Earth, you'd either need a hell of a lot of trucks, or you'd be screwed because there's probably at least 100% in the subs alone. (hell, the sub fleet is a MAJOR portion of our modern arsenal)

If you can build enough silos,you have to have at least a comparable number of trucks to service them.Unmanned SSBNs in the 60's? And what then? Orbital battlestations?
You would not even have to worry about sabotaging them,they would probably break apart after a week of patrol.
The 900% figure is probably a propaganda value.During the cold war expression like "enough firepower to destroy the world ten times" were common but that was far from real.They have to be interpreted in the sense
"enough firepower to send ten bombs on each target".Eliminating all the life on earth would require nearly BDZ level of firepower.

[Uraniun235]

There's a difference between "all" and "almost all". It might have been 900% to make humanity extinct, which would require even less.

Oh, BTW, 900% came from Colossus.

Unmanned SSBNs in the 60's?

Colossus was not set in the 60's; from what I can tell it was set roughly around the 90's (from the perspective of the 60's; the book describes two Space Stations, and the second book tells of a lunar-based observatory)

The SSBNs were IIRC described as "robot crawlers", so yes, they WERE unmanned.

It would be rather difficult placing a TV camera into a nuclear reactor,a plutonium forge and similar places.Replace the plutonium/uranium with
an other material and the game is done.

Colossus could have the warheads weighed, and variances beyond tolerance (different materials have different densities) would result in immediate disassembly under strict Colossus supervision to confirm that the warhead was properly reassembled.

Besides, he can keep a strict watch on everything that goes into and out of the facility.

For this reason I suggested building a separate telephonic line.

Where will you get sufficient materials to do this? How will you undertake such an effort without Colossus finding out?

Obviously all the electronics would be under direct control of the computer.But some pipes not too well connected here or there would be hard or impossible to detect by a camera when the missile undergoes the periodic heavy maintenance.And that would be all that is necessary.

It's not as if Colossus is strictly limited to video cameras; he could probe the missile with all manner of sensing equipment, and do a better job of it than the men could at that.

Remember, this is the easy stage; it gets a lot worse later on when humans start to actively collaborate with Colossus to stop "anti-machine" activity.