The "Decline with each age" Fantasy cliche -any ex

[Lord of the Abyss]

DEATH is right, it does seem to be rule rather than the exception. I can only think of a few that don't portray the past as better/more powerful :

Doc Sidhe, The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump, Operation Chaos, Operation Luna and the Lord Darcy series all portray magic as a form of technology or science; in those worlds it has progressed.

In Simon Green's Hawk and Fisher books the past is portrayed as having been more powerful magically, but that's portrayed as a good thing. As magic dies, science grows.

In the Lawrence Watt-Evans Ethshar books it's a bit of a wash; there's plenty of lost knowledge, but new things are being discovered as well.

Those are just a few; the books that follow the past-was-better cliche are legion, however.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Eh? What do you mean? They could move solar systems for fun,

What the fuck are you talking about you inbred wretch? Did you get your brain after it failed to make the spec for mealworms? I'm talking about the Real Dark Ages

Sorry, as I said I was a idiot and didn't understand what you were talking about.
(Thought DAOT rather than medieval ages)

And FYI, the 'Dark Age of Tech' guys in the 40k settind cound't do that either.

Has the 50k lightyear solar system been retconned? Or has an explanation for it included smething about it being a project and not them just fucking around?

[Lusankya]

Could there possibly be something taken from ye olde bible there? Things were certainly better in the old days then, when we first of all lived free of sin and then lived for 800-odd years before dying.

It could also be an extension of the authors reminiscing about "the good old days". Nostalgia makes people miss the past, even when the present is objectively better.

And L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s saga of Recluce tends not to have the "good old days were better" theme. Indeed, it's not uncommon for the novels to be set in a period of magical and technological advance.



ROAR!!!!! says GOJIRA!!!!!

[Bounty]

Could there possibly be something taken from ye olde bible there? Things were certainly better in the old days then, when we first of all lived free of sin and then lived for 800-odd years before dying.

The expulsion from Eden ? I think that one traces it's origins even further in middle eastern mythology.

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

[Dartzap]

Some of the Discworld civilisations are greater than they were thousands of years in the past past, though only in certain aspects, for example Ankh-Morpork once ruled a massive empire, but they did not have the same kind of technology as it has in the present day IE: Clacks technology, Gonnes and the Disorginisers.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Some of the Discworld civilisations are greater than they were thousands of years in the past past, though only in certain aspects, for example Ankh-Morpork once ruled a massive empire, but they did not have the same kind of technology as it has in the present day IE: Clacks technology, Gonnes and the Disorginisers.

Not really, the fact is that the Discwolrd as of the time of the Sourcerors would massacre the current version, a intelligent pda ain't on the same league as a 8 year old reality warping god(s) slaughterer, sheer power (levels) is the difference here, trhe old sourcerors probably didn't need any of the current stuff (Magic on their scale made technology useless)

[xammer99]

Peter F. Hamilton: Sci-Fi granted, but no retrogression in power. There is a demonstrated progression of it in terms of military power. Notably the Alamo Avengers scene.

Turtledove's World War series. Huge power progression there on the part of Earth.

Glen Cook's Black Company: a. The Lady's Empire was much bigger, more powerful, and much more stable than the Dominator's empire of terror. b. While the Dominator, the Ten and the Lady were individually more powerful sorcerers the folks who came later were up to the task of putting them down. c. Cook is pretty good (later on) about playing on this theme with the Kina stuff and the origins of myths and religions. d. Beyond the Empire, you have the Shadowmaster & Tagilian empires that grow up.

This isn't a perfect progression on all fronts, but there is definately a political & military progression there that is comparable to what came before. Heck, with the Daughter & Tobo. There is even a power progression too and the sorcerous arming with the bamboo. The black company world basically goes from high individual power to difused power that is as effective.

Again, not perfect, and arguable, but it's the best I can come up with.

[UCBooties]

Well it's hardly a surprise that almost all fantasy glorifies the past considering that the modern genre was concieved from romanticism. The entire fantasy tradition is steeped in romanticism. Why? Because it makes things more fantastic! It allows for great ruins and lost treasures, and ancient magics that can overturn the worlds. The fantasy hero archetype is almost wholly reliant on romanticism, since it is only through the discovery of somthing older and greater than himself (read sword, magic powers, stone of the gods, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum) that the lone hero can overcome impossible odds. The cliche has as much to do with the literary tradition as it does with real world events, but that seems a minor qualifier considering just how much the romanticism movement was a reaction to percieved history.

But really, what is wrong with it? I understand that it is painfully overused, but that would seem to be much more the fault of unimaginitive authors misusing a concept than a fault in the concept itself. For myself, when I read fantasy, I want to read about impossible places with long dead ruins and ancient magic and power. I have no interest in seeing the march of technical progress in a fantasy setting, leave that for the science fiction, or better yet for a blending of the two.

[SirNitram]

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

I think the loss of high quality roads, representatives, plumbing, aqueducts, sanitation, and a high quality of life would be qualified as 'dramatic'.

[Edi]

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

It'd be nice if you could actually back this claim up. One pretty damn important example of things going to shit after the empire fell was that Roman level medical knowledge in the field of surgery and post-operation treatment of was not attained until the fucking end of WW2.

Edi

[The Yosemite Bear]

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

It'd be nice if you could actually back this claim up. One pretty damn important example of things going to shit after the empire fell was that Roman level medical knowledge in the field of surgery and post-operation treatment of was not attained until the fucking end of WW2.

Edi

lets hear it for penicillin and napalm two things that existed during the roman empire, that were mostly lost until the twentieth century.

not to mention they used steam engines for making toys and clocks go, but conisdered slaves to be a better source of power.

[Adrian Laguna]

There was a decline in some aspects, but not in others, and only in Europe. The Chinese certainly didn't notice the Dark Ages, on the other hand the Chinese didn't own the world at some point in time, the Europeans on the other hand... In any case, militarily speaking, the decline was not for nearly as long as some would believe, by AD 1000 Europe was up to spec, and half-way through AD 1300s we get to "utterly assrapes Roman Legions". Yes I know, 300+ years to go from "parity" to "total pwnage" but I never said the progress was fast.

Also, there was no real decline in mathematics knowledge that I know of, the Eastern Roman Empire, and later Islamic Scholars kept that knowledge alive.

[Sidewinder]

There was a decline in some aspects, but not in others, and only in Europe. The Chinese certainly didn't notice the Dark Ages, on the other hand the Chinese didn't own the world at some point in time, the Europeans on the other hand...

Chinese culture-- including clothing, language, architecture, art, and even games like chess-- was spread to Korea, Japan, and much of Southeast Asia. Unfortunately, poor management by various emperors resulted in the squandering of this influence.

Emperors whose stupidity resulted in many historical periods similar to the European Dark Ages, with famines, civil war, and Hun, Mongol, and Manchurian invasions. These periods ended when another great general lead his army to victory over the Imperial forces, occupying the capital and proclaiming himself emperor. Sadly, stupid ideals on morality, i.e., Confucian ideals, as noted by Bo Yang, meant that Chinese culture was frozen in time by disdain of the profit motive, a fear of change that resulted in superiors demanding blind obedience from their subordinates, and fathers demanding blind obedience from their children, etc. Eventually, the European military technology, once centuries behind China's, advanced while Chinese emperors tried to freeze time in their empires, resulting in humiliations like the Opium Wars and the Sino-Japanese Wars.

And FYI, I'm Chinese-- I know what I'm talking about.

[Balrog]

In any case, militarily speaking, the decline was not for nearly as long as some would believe, by AD 1000 Europe was up to spec, and half-way through AD 1300s we get to "utterly assrapes Roman Legions". Yes I know, 300+ years to go from "parity" to "total pwnage" but I never said the progress was fast.

I believe that is up for debate though. Yes by 1300 AD the Europeans had great heavy cavalry, but the Romans had ways of dealing with heavy cavalry, and Knights were only a small part of a Medieval army; the rest were whatever infantry forces were availible, many with little to know training compared to the Legions.

[Straha]

In any case, militarily speaking, the decline was not for nearly as long as some would believe, by AD 1000 Europe was up to spec, and half-way through AD 1300s we get to "utterly assrapes Roman Legions". Yes I know, 300+ years to go from "parity" to "total pwnage" but I never said the progress was fast.

I call BULLSHIT. Depending on what era you go to in Rome they had ways with dealing with everything the middle ages could put out, and more. The simple fact of the matter is that you don't get armies that are as large, well equipped, or disciplined untill around 1500 or 1600, at the earliest, and even that disparity is largley made up in technology. Rome's sheer staying power, as seen in every war from the Second Samnite War to the end of the Second Punic War (in my eyes, the golden age of Rome,) is unmatched untill the 20th century. Further, the decline lasts centuries in every manner, the sheer brilliance of Archimedes, the (sadly the inventory is not known) Anti-Kythera device, the, mostly, stable republic that was Rome untill the rise of Scipio Africanus (this is debatable, but for simplicity's sake just take it) are unmatched untill the renaissence at the earliest, or the 19th century at the latest. For almost 1,500 years humanity was in a state of regression, one which we have only recently dragged ourselves out of.

[NecronLord]

Has the 50k lightyear solar system been retconned? Or has an explanation for it included smething about it being a project and not them just fucking around?

It was never properly in the continuity. It was just based on GW's inability to draw a map of the galaxy. It's now in (vaguely) the right area.

[Bounty]

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

I think the loss of high quality roads, representatives, plumbing, aqueducts, sanitation, and a high quality of life would be qualified as 'dramatic'.

A high quality of life for whom ? Do you really think that Joe Schmuck on a field in Lusitania or a clerk living in an insula would've noticed that Augustulus had been deposed ?

Yes, Europe was degrading rapidly after the second century. But the Empire was not as fantastic as it's hyped up to be, and the middle ages - after an initial truly dark age of large migration and invasion - were not as dark as some would like to claim. Art-wise, anything from the seventh century onwards can stand up to it's imperial counterparts; politically, people like Charles The Hammer and Charlemagne were just as capable, if not more so, they their lame duck imperial predecessors, crippled only by an archaic system of inheritance; in fact, the only field to truly suffer was the sciences.

[Bounty]

^^ to clarify, because I can't seem to make an objective point : yes, the Dark Ages were a step back from the Empire. A small one in some aspects, a huge leap on others (the loss of scientific curiosity being a *major* one). I am *not* contesting that, I'm simply trying to say that the Dark Ages had their bright spots too.

[Aeolus]

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

I think the loss of high quality roads, representatives, plumbing, aqueducts, sanitation, and a high quality of life would be qualified as 'dramatic'.

A high quality of life for whom ? Do you really think that Joe Schmuck on a field in Lusitania or a clerk living in an insula would've noticed that Augustulus had been deposed ?

Yes, Europe was degrading rapidly after the second century. But the Empire was not as fantastic as it's hyped up to be, and the middle ages - after an initial truly dark age of large migration and invasion - were not as dark as some would like to claim. Art-wise, anything from the seventh century onwards can stand up to it's imperial counterparts; politically, people like Charles The Hammer and Charlemagne were just as capable, if not more so, they their lame duck imperial predecessors, crippled only by an archaic system of inheritance; in fact, the only field to truly suffer was the sciences.

There was also a massive economic and social collapse. Middle Age societys simply did not have access to the financial resourses Roman society had. Think of the middle ages as being the greatest depression ever. One that lasted centuries.

[Darth Wong]

Look at the Bible; "there were giants in those days". Also, look at Greek mythology, in which the gods overthrew the TITANS that came before them. There seems to be a natural human compulsion to revere the past, and it probably comes from the fact that people look fondly upon their days of their youth as they get older and their memories fade of what it was really like. Extrapolate that behaviour, and you get the Glories of Old.

Hell, even today we're seeing YOUNG people who buy into this bullshit about the 1950s being a golden age of morality in America: a fucking era when black people were forcibly segregated, Jews anglicized their names to avoid persecution, and the government performed medical experiments on its own people without telling them.

[Straha]

Look at the Bible; "there were giants in those days". Also, look at Greek mythology, in which the gods overthrew the TITANS that came before them. There seems to be a natural human compulsion to revere the past, and it probably comes from the fact that people look fondly upon their days of their youth as they get older and their memories fade of what it was really like. Extrapolate that behaviour, and you get the Glories of Old.

Hell, even today we're seeing YOUNG people who buy into this bullshit about the 1950s being a golden age of morality in America: a fucking era when black people were forcibly segregated, Jews anglicized their names to avoid persecution, and the government performed medical experiments on its own people without telling them.

Ah, yes. The 1950s, where people worried about the communist influence on American morality and claimed that things were in massive moral decline around them, and pined for the 1890s, where good capitalistic trusts dominated America, and the rich were rich and the poor knew their place, and there were none of these "uppity negroes"....

And when the people in turn pined for the 1860s when...

[Straha]

And about advanced Romans vs knuckle-dragging Dark Agers : you have to remember that a lot of that image is Romantic propaganda. Rome was just as filthy and filled with ignorant hicks in 60 AD as in 1060 AD; while there was a noticeable decline after the split of the Empire, it's not as dramatic a slide as some would like you to believe.

I think the loss of high quality roads, representatives, plumbing, aqueducts, sanitation, and a high quality of life would be qualified as 'dramatic'.

A high quality of life for whom ? Do you really think that Joe Schmuck on a field in Lusitania or a clerk living in an insula would've noticed that Augustulus had been deposed ?

If we pulled representatives from earlier Rome of any period before the 3rd century AD, they'd notice what had happened, and wonder just what the fuck went wrong. Sure the end of Rome was not a pretty thing and almost no one from the time period noticed, but throughout the collapse you have a regression in politics, economics, and infrastructure (heck, I've heard it argued that real infrastructure didn't return to Roman standards untill the 20th century. I think that's a bit late but the fact that some people who take this time of study dead seriously believe this is telling) that brings the status of the people back to almost the 7th century BC.

Art-wise, anything from the seventh century onwards can stand up to it's imperial counterparts; politically, people like Charles The Hammer and Charlemagne were just as capable, if not more so, they their lame duck imperial predecessors, crippled only by an archaic system of inheritance; in fact, the only field to truly suffer was the sciences.

It doesn't matter if you're personally as brilliant as the best politicians from Rome or all of history if you can't do anything with it. That was part of the beauty of the Roman Republic, if you were smart enough and played your cards right (something which was much easier for the patrico-plebian nobility) you could climb the political ladder and attain real political power and do something with it. That attitude was carried over into the begining of Empire, and the loss of it and replacement of it by "Nobles rule by blood heritage and the peasants should never have any say in anything" outlook is one of the biggest collapses in that downfall.

[Adrian Laguna]

Terry Brook's "Sword of Shannara" world has an interesting take on the "ancient times when everything was better" theme. Basically if you turn the clock backwards everything gets worse, and more primitive, and the you have a very sharp improvement in the quality of life, technololgical level, and overall power of various nations and people. Then as you move back from this Golden Age everything again gets worse and more primitive until again you have a rise in power quality of life, etc. What happened? Let's run the clock forwards from this point far in the past and go to the present.

You start with the world of the Fearies, where they are all happy and stuff 'cause the Demons have been vanquised. However, their powers go into decline, and they are latter driven away by a new threat. The humans outbreed the Feary Folk and take over the world. Then, form this state of primitiveness they advance temendously. At the peak of their technological advancements, they blast themselves back into the stone age under a a lot of radioactive mushroom clouds. Then from this sordid state, everything starts to improve and keeps getting more advanced and stuff, exept this time we've got magic.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Turtledove, for all his faults, always impressed me by avoiding this cliche. His Darkness series shows a consistent advance in magic, in both its use and understanding. Between the Rivers portrays an ancient Sumerian-like civilization outgrowing its gods and replacing them with advances like metallurgy, smithery and writing.

The Warhammer stories portray human civilization as continually improving (even the elves don't have steampowered tanks), although they do mention the deceased Old Ones who crossed the stars to make their world prosper every now and again.

[Eframepilot]

Shannara was the first instance (that I know) of the post-apocalyptic fantasy world: a fantasy world set in the distant future of (possibly) our Earth, after some great war/disaster broke the world, tore the continents and reduced civilization to medieval levels. Other instances of this are found in Jordan's Wheel of Time, the Deathgate Cycle and the anime Scrapped Princess,