Can the federation genetically engineer a super soldier

[RedImperator]

And how often are soldiers going to be physically subduing enemies, especially in Trek, when you have stun settings available on phasers.

Physically subduing opponents does actually happen quite often. No, not when the openent is shooting at you, I think we're all in agreement that at this point it is time to bring out the lead hose.

Subduing enemies requires a combination of strength, dexterity, and skill (mostly skill, but the other attributes are important). To give one example, in Iraq, insurgents have been known to send out spotters for their mortar teams, with their only weapon being a cell phone to call in fire adjustments with. To this end, if you're on patrol, and happen see a person talking on his cell phone during a bombardment, you grab him, but as he's not brandishing a weapon, lethal force would probably be inappropriate (most of these people talking on their cell phones during a bombardment are actually innocent, and simply let go at the end of the day).

You admit yourself there's more skill involved in subduing unarmed hostiles, so why bother engineering super strength that's rarely going to be used? American soldiers in Iraq are perfectly capable of subduing mortar spotters without wanked out muscles. I don't see why a well trained, well conditioned Federation soldier couldn't do the same.

I'm thinking along the lines of a situation where soldiers are involved in what is more properly police work, rather than two armies facing off against one another. Sorry if I wasn't being that clear on it.

Hence my comment that you seemed to be designing a better prison guard than a better soldier.

As for the phasor part, what if a treknoblabbatron field disables your phasor? You'll have to use your hands then, even if it is to use the useless piece of shit for a club. (and after ST: Nemesis, I recommend just getting a handy piece of wood)

Flash-bang grenade. Nightstick. Vulcan nerve pinch if you've got one in the squad. Ordinary police methods which work just fine for modern soldiers.

Oh, and there's a price to be paid for these denser, heavier muscles: they need more energy, and hence your super soldiers will need more food. Major disadvantage.

How is this a disadvantage?!?!?!

For God's sakes man! It's a cure for obesity!!

You need to make more food for them, ship more to the front, and load soldiers down with more. They'll get hungry more often, and they'll starve to death faster if they get their supply lines cut off. All this for no real combat advantage.

[wilfulton]

You admit yourself there's more skill involved in subduing unarmed hostiles, so why bother engineering super strength that's rarely going to be used? American soldiers in Iraq are perfectly capable of subduing mortar spotters without wanked out muscles. I don't see why a well trained, well conditioned Federation soldier couldn't do the same.

Oh most certainly, but in the Trek verse, what if it was a vulcan or klingon renegade or something that was much stronger than a normal person physically, or had faster reflexes, or some actual hand to hand training of their own? Most Iraqis I've met don't.

Then again, I guess normal humans have done just fine (sorry, I didn't watch DS9, VOY, ENT, or anything after TNG, and even then I only had a fleeting interest). Mostly I'm just offering a suggestion as to how it can be used.

Whether or not such improvements would be practical, is, as you say, the only definite thing here, and it is a resounding "No."

Hence my comment that you seemed to be designing a better prison guard than a better soldier.

Fuck, looks like you got me there boss.

Flash-bang grenade.

Federation designed? You can if you want, I'll be waiting way over here.

Nightstick.

Pretty much anything you see on a modern policeman's belt.

Vulcan nerve pinch if you've got one in the squad.

Yes, but I don't really think you want to rely on just one person in the squad to be able to administer this. It should be something anyone in the squad could administer.

Ordinary police methods which work just fine for modern soldiers.

Yes, but don't forget that the military is always looking for a better way to do something. Whether or not it finds it is a totally different matter, but they are always looking for a better toy, or a better technique of playing with said toy.

How is this a disadvantage?!?!?!

For God's sakes man! It's a cure for obesity!!

You need to make more food for them, ship more to the front, and load soldiers down with more. They'll get hungry more often, and they'll starve to death faster if they get their supply lines cut off. All this for no real combat advantage.

That was a joke, hence the three smileys.

If you want to take sustenance issues seriously, you could argue that in Star Trek, they have transporters and replicators, and so it wouldn't be too difficult for them to do.

I thought both Vulcans and Klingons are supposed to be much stronger than humans, yet they're about the same size, and we don't see them eating six pounds of boneless pork chops a day to keep from starving to death (okay, we don't see them eating any more than a normal human). Why can't whatever wanknobabble that makes them so strong be applied to a human?

[NecronLord]

The Federation does have the technology.

Just like it has tanks because they existed in its past.

[Darth Wong]

If you want to take sustenance issues seriously, you could argue that in Star Trek, they have transporters and replicators, and so it wouldn't be too difficult for them to do.

Even transporters and replicators need supplies. You still have to send gobs of this organic goo for the replicators to turn into food, and by weight, it's the same amount you would have had to send in food. Not only that, but now you are dependent on the replicator, so if it breaks you're screwed since I suspect the organic goo is not palatable. DS9 showed them eating combat rations during missions, so they really have the same military supply line issues that we do today. They even use similar forms of sustenance, ie- packaged combat rations.

I thought both Vulcans and Klingons are supposed to be much stronger than humans, yet they're about the same size, and we don't see them eating six pounds of boneless pork chops a day to keep from starving to death (okay, we don't see them eating any more than a normal human). Why can't whatever wanknobabble that makes them so strong be applied to a human?

Since they don't really show their diets in detail, there's no real basis for that statement. Also, Vulcans are known for spending a lot of time meditating and such. They may be one of those species which rests a lot of the time and stores up their energy for bursts of activity. Note, however, that they are not used as shock troopers by the Federation, so their strength does not seem to afford them a combat advantage, exactly as expected. As for the Klingons, I remain unconvinced that a Klingon is any stronger than a human of similar size.

[RedImperator]

Since they don't really show their diets in detail, there's no real basis for that statement. Also, Vulcans are known for spending a lot of time meditating and such. They may be one of those species which rests a lot of the time and stores up their energy for bursts of activity. Note, however, that they are not used as shock troopers by the Federation, so their strength does not seem to afford them a combat advantage, exactly as expected. As for the Klingons, I remain unconvinced that a Klingon is any stronger than a human of similar size.

Since the Klingons (TNG era anyway) strongly emphasize hand-to-hand combat, it's likely most Klingons we see are stronger and better conditioned than the average redshirt, the same way Roman legionaries would be stronger than the average redshirt. But that doesn't translate into a species-wide strength advantage. Worf certainly never showed any feats of strength that would have been impossible for a similarly sized human (say, Michael Dorn ) who regularly hit the gym.

[The Silence and I]

Since they don't really show their diets in detail, there's no real basis for that statement. Also, Vulcans are known for spending a lot of time meditating and such. They may be one of those species which rests a lot of the time and stores up their energy for bursts of activity. Note, however, that they are not used as shock troopers by the Federation, so their strength does not seem to afford them a combat advantage, exactly as expected. As for the Klingons, I remain unconvinced that a Klingon is any stronger than a human of similar size.

Since the Klingons (TNG era anyway) strongly emphasize hand-to-hand combat, it's likely most Klingons we see are stronger and better conditioned than the average redshirt, the same way Roman legionaries would be stronger than the average redshirt. But that doesn't translate into a species-wide strength advantage. Worf certainly never showed any feats of strength that would have been impossible for a similarly sized human (say, Michael Dorn ) who regularly hit the gym.

As I recall Worf at one point lifted and then threw an adult male with one hand in one of the DS9 episodes. And Krudge (sp?) from ST III lifted and held Kirk at arm length--Kirk was fat at the time and the klingon was of small stature.

Both examples are borderline superhuman considering the visible builds of the actors involved.

[Darth Wong]

As I recall Worf at one point lifted and then threw an adult male with one hand in one of the DS9 episodes.

I'd have to see this video clip for myself. Got a rip handy?

And Krudge (sp?) from ST III lifted and held Kirk at arm length--Kirk was fat at the time and the klingon was of small stature.

And yet Kirk proceeded to kick his ass; rather unlikely if he is of truly superhuman strength.

Both examples are borderline superhuman considering the visible builds of the actors involved.

One thing people often forget about strength is that it is usually intertwined with toughness. In short, any creature with superhuman strength will also be superhumanly tough and able to withstand much greater punishment without injury. This is because much of "toughness" to physical injury is a result of muscle tissue, and extremely strong animals must also have heavier, denser bone structure or they will literally snap their own bones during exertions.

So when someone can get his ass kicked in hand to hand combat by an ordinary (and in this case, old and overweight and out of shape) person, that makes it extremely difficult to believe that he possesses superhuman strength.

[The Silence and I]

As I recall Worf at one point lifted and then threw an adult male with one hand in one of the DS9 episodes.

I'd have to see this video clip for myself. Got a rip handy?

'fraid not, I'm not even aware of the episode name; I'm relating what I've heard in the past browsing these forums (it's been mentioned and verified several times so I believe it despite not ever seeing it myself).

And Krudge (sp?) from ST III lifted and held Kirk at arm length--Kirk was fat at the time and the klingon was of small stature.

And yet Kirk proceeded to kick his ass; rather unlikely if he is of truly superhuman strength.

I don't know when you last watched this scene but Krudge bitchslapped Kirk for the most part. It is also generally accepted that skill >> strength and Krudge has at best borderline superhuman strength, nothing of LOTR Troll level for example, which negates skill for obvious reasons.

Both examples are borderline superhuman considering the visible builds of the actors involved.

One thing people often forget about strength is that it is usually intertwined with toughness. In short, any creature with superhuman strength will also be superhumanly tough and able to withstand much greater punishment without injury. This is because much of "toughness" to physical injury is a result of muscle tissue, and extremely strong animals must also have heavier, denser bone structure or they will literally snap their own bones during exertions.

Again I don't know when you last watched this but the fight breaks down fairly simply: Krudge is pushed into the air by the earth quakes and jumps down onto Kirk, knocking him to the ground. He then grabs Kirk by the neck and lifts him at arms length and holds him while Kirk trys to break his hold repeatedly. Moments later Krudge headbutts him into a large rock pillar. Kirk gets up and punches the klingon twice in the face and trys to kick him--but Krudge catches the foot and flips Kirk backwards into the air. Kirk gets up again and starts smacking Krudge around with a large branch before he catches it and flings Kirk into the rock again.

All this while Krudge is stumbling around because of uneven footing and being hit with massive objects but he never seems to get tired or hurt. Krudge then slams Kirk repeatedly into the rock before Kirk knees him in the groin. He groans and throws Kirk to the ground, then stumbles off a ledge. Kirk gets up and jumps down on him, knocking him to the ground. He gets up and they try to push each other off the cliff (the groin shot is not apparently bothering Krudge too much anymore).

Here Krudge throws his only punch, it throws Kirk into the rocks, hard. The ground starts shaking during this and Krudge stumbles a bit backwards when the cliff of course falls off under his feet. It should also be noted his grip on Kirk's boot at the end places all his weight on his thumb, which any martial artist will tell you is the weakest part of the grip. That he can hold on at all is again very impressive.

So when someone can get his ass kicked in hand to hand combat by an ordinary (and in this case, old and overweight and out of shape) person, that makes it extremely difficult to believe that he possesses superhuman strength.

I can tell you this: I get the impression Krudge was never seriously hurt in the fight, he held back by only throwing one punch and in the end Kirk won because he was lucky and is still among the toughest people to ever have lived.

[Samored]

Design the soldiers bodies to produce little or no myostatin, this would increase their muscle mass, not to super-human levels but to high-end human levels. Fast-twitch muscles are likewise highly developed, leading to faster reaction times. Some Olympians have elevated amounts of red blood cells allowing their blood to carry more oxygen and giving them greater endurance and stamina. Engineer the brain to produce infant-levels of acetylcholine and other neuro-transmitter agonists. Also increase the permeability of glial cell membranes if not the absolute amount of myelin in the brain. This would create a smarter, faster thinking soldier without increasing the size of the brain. Finally, engineer control over endorphins and neuro-peptides to allow the soldier to enter "the zone" (not the diet plan, but what atheletes describe as the period of peek performance) at will.

[Darth Wong]

What makes anyone think that soldiers need to have bulkier muscles? Any modification you make probably has trade-offs somewhere; in the case of muscle mass it's energy consumption, which equates to food requirements. Oversized soldiers look cool in movies but are of questionable utility in reality.

[Zor]

"Better" in what way? Stronger? Larger? Faster? The usual wank?

Well, there plenty of flaw in the Human base design. The Spine and Eye have defects that genetic Engineering could correct. Best get rid of the useless left-overs from our quadropedal ansestors.

Other improvements: Increasing strenth to a degree would be usefull for carring more ammo and mabye heavier body armor, but also increasing reflexes and flexibility for increased manuverability/dexterity. Increased bone decity for durrability and a higher Red and White blood cell count for stamina and resistance to infection. Generally better sight and hearing. Better human for everyday, better Human for the battlefeild.

Zor

[Samored]

What makes anyone think that soldiers need to have bulkier muscles? Any modification you make probably has trade-offs somewhere; in the case of muscle mass it's energy consumption, which equates to food requirements. Oversized soldiers look cool in movies but are of questionable utility in reality.

Hence the reduction in myostatin. Individuals would have more lean muscle mass as a percentage of body weight for any given level of caloric intake and physical training. Such people would require less physical training to attain and maintain an extremely high level of physical fitness, necessary for maximum performance in combat. Their individual taining regime would determine how bulky (oversized) they were. As to your concern that such people would create a logistics strain, we need look no futher than the Belgian Blue's. They do not consume significantly more feedstock than holstein's, yet their muscle tissues are far more dense.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Here's my idea :

Enhance reflexes and the speed of the thought process as much as possible; a solidier who can react and think 5 times faster is more dangerous than one 5 times as strong.

Enhance strength; but if there is a tradeoff between strength and speed/dexterity, go for the latter.

Enhance both senses and sensory filters; we know the latter is possible because wolves and dogs can function despite a sense of smell far, far better than human. Pain control included in this.

Engineer an organ that can transform electricity into chemical energy ( glucose ? ), like the opposite of an electric eel. Modified nerves are used to conduct the electricity to the organ from a subcutaneous receiver "nerve" patch; power is transmitted from an outside source via inductance ). Yes, this is wankish, but I gotta fuel these guys somehow; besides, it's more plausible than the built in cloaks the Jem'Hadar and Tosk have.

Alter the osteoblasts/osteoclasts so they use titanium instead of calcium for bone; it's light, strong and biocompatible. Feed the soldiers titanium enriched food supplements, and alter the tastebuds so titanium tastes sweet.

Add in regenerative capability. And no, regeneration does not give you tumors; critters like salamanders never get tumors, they grow extra body parts/organs.

Build in the dolphin ability to sleep one hemisphere at a time.

Add sphincters in all blood vessels that clamp down reflexively to prevent blood loss.

Telepathy like those Darwin kids.

[Gil Hamilton]

On the issue of Klingons, keep in mind that during various episodes of DS9, Sisko does overpower a few of them on occasion. Sisko is obviously a big strong dude, but that indicates that he's roughly on par with your average Klingon soldier. Besides, how many times during the Klingon boarding of DS9 did Kira punch out a Klingon warrior with her slap-punches? Doesn't seem to strong to me.

[Gil Hamilton]

On the main topic, I'd avoid the genetically engineering all together and push for the Federation to use cybernetic technology, like Batou in Ghost in the Shell, assuming they have that level of cybernetic technology. Genegineering is much too hard to get a significant gain over a normal well trained and worked out human.

[The Silence and I]

On the issue of Klingons, keep in mind that during various episodes of DS9, Sisko does overpower a few of them on occasion. Sisko is obviously a big strong dude, but that indicates that he's roughly on par with your average Klingon soldier. Besides, how many times during the Klingon boarding of DS9 did Kira punch out a Klingon warrior with her slap-punches? Doesn't seem to strong to me.

And then Worf and Krudge/Kurge--whatever his name is--exhibit strength well beyond human capability, and both are far from super bulky body-builder type frames. Since Klingon strength is not consistent my belief is that they are more or less like humans except their skeleton is stronger, their metabolism is higher and they have denser muscles, allowing superhuman strength provided they are willing to undergo the intense and constant physical training required to develope and then maintain that kind of strength.

[wilfulton]

Just ask yourself this: why the hell would they spend so much time and money in researching and implementing this genetic stuff when they could just buy some new gear and trainers?

Why engineer a new breed of super strong people when you can just recruit a normal person, put him through a few weeks if boot camp, and give him a vest and a rifle and be good to go?

Confession time:

Just a few of the perks I wish I had. The drawbacks to them everyone in the know keeps talking about is just the reason why we as a species ain't got 'em.

In all honesty, I'm not too sure that shelling out billions of "credits" to produce a "super soldier" would really be a cost effective measure for any military. A more likely use of human genetic engineering would be to remove certain genetic disorders from people, but that is truly more a medical thing than military.

Just about all military operations involve large numbers of people working together. Any well trained, well equipped, and cohesive team of normals could easily bring down any one super. That part is all about numbers, and normals are more likely to always be more abundant.

According to Murphy's law of war:

Teamwork is essential, it gives the enemy more people to shoot at.

[Typhonis 1]

Changes needed..a sytem that makes better use of the materials at hand..a more efficient digestive tract would be nice. Increased endurance would also be a must . Adrenal control would also be nice for bursts of energy. Rewiring of the brain...if you must reduce the effects fatigue has on a person, wiring them for less sleep, and fear control are the big ones as is hand eye coordination.

[Sidewinder]

Basically though, the advantage of increase strength (in a fight at least) is only useful in last ditch hand to hand combat which would be very rare.

Have you ever served in the Army? I have-- I'm a helicopter mechanic-- and I can tell you that having enhanced strength will be a big help considering the amount of shit a soldier has to carry when he's on patrol. In airborne, air assault, and SF training, they make you do road marches w/ 50 pound rucksacks. To even get off your ass with 50 extra pounds on your back is an ordeal!

Not to mention the things I've lifted around in my work-- 110-round boxes for 30 mm ammo, which weighs one pound PER ROUND; 70 pound toolboxes; even 98 pound Hellfire missiles!

Enhanced strength is something every soldier dreams of having. Why do you think we have so many problems w/ steroids?

[Uraniun235]

Given that starship-borne infantry should be a very minor aspect of a major interstellar war between Trek powers, I doubt very much that creating "super soldiers" would be a wise use of resources; investing resources into reshaping doctrines governing existing Federation ground forces would yield far greater returns.

Similarly, creating genetically engineered humans may incur unforeseeable costs later in the soldiers' lifetimes; Roga Danar and the others like him were abandoned by their society when it became apparent that reassimilation and deprogramming would prove very costly to implement.

[Typhonis 1]

Mike was talking about trade offs and one has come to me . Lets speak of the large intimidating supersoldier..ok here are the problms with larger than normal soldiers...A the size of them sudenly you can not fit as many of them into a vehicle as you previously could.. IE a shuttle that normally holds 10 pople can now only seat 8.

Tougher also transltes into medical problems.....surgery, IVs taking blood samples and even simple injections are now a bit harder or are more time consuming becuse your patients skin is that much toughr thus harder to breach.

if he has superstrength what about fine control of said strength? Will you have to engineer sturdier items for him to handle or will you put up with the breakage?