Wicked Pilot wrote:What the hell is that article suppost to prove? A security guard doing something immoral or illegal doesn't make him a mercenary, it just makes him a security guard who is immoral and/or a criminal. And nice hasty generalization there, you do it with such a nice touch. Never mind the fact that the only real specific example it gives involves Kurds doing the autrocities.
Well, you never answered the question when I asked it before, but I'll take this as your answer that Yes, you do define armed convoy escort as rent-a-cop work, no matter how likely weapons use is. We're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because you are drawing a very narrow definition of 'mercenary' that I'm afraid I can't go with.
The article was not posted for inflammatory 'omg they're evil' impact, but to show that clearly the jobs these guys are being contracted to perform go well outside standing in front of an embassy and looking tough. When you hire ex-Rangers, arm them with automatic weapons, and send them out to guard convoys that are coming under attack every day, it seems just a little disingenuous to me to say 'I'm shocked, shocked to find that there's combat in this job!'
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon" Operation Freedom Fry
Wicked Pilot wrote:That covers the Kurds, but if they're Americans working for the American Army then they're not mercenaries right? If they are, then at my base are the civilian contractors who man the gate, instruct academics, clean the offices, mow the grass, etc, mercenaries also?
Is there a point to this semantical nitpicking? Soldiers for hire are mercenaries. If you see nothing wrong with the concept of soldiers motivated entirely by pay, then what's the fucking problem with calling a spade a spade? Unless, perhaps, you've read enough history to realize there's some serious problems with this, and would prefer to live in a bubble of delusion because you can nitpick your way to a different word. What utter bullshit.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Are you all suggesting that the armed guards, many of which are discharged soldiers, who drive Wells Fargo trucks into the worst of gettos of Detroit, where there are hundreds of people who wouldn't think twice of capping them and taking their goods are mercenaries?
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
I should note, as per the Geneva Conventions and similar legal documents, it is far harder to define mercs than one would first think. Simply calling them gunned up rent-a-cops doesn't cover it. Sorry, but there's a bit more to it than protecting some backwater, in this case it may be just that, but mercs can and do far more than any security guard. So much so, certain gov'ts are eager to stop them at any cost from affecting situations they may be involved in.
Wicked Pilot wrote:Are you all suggesting that the armed guards, many of which are discharged soldiers, who drive Wells Fargo trucks into the worst of gettos of Detroit, where there are hundreds of people who wouldn't think twice of capping them and taking their goods are mercenaries?
They're not guarding Wells Fargo trucks, they're guarding U.S. Army munitions convoys ...
They're not defending them against drug dealers, they're defendiing them against the exact same enemy the professional Army is fighting ...
When they get knee-deep in shit, they're not calling the Wells Fargo dispatcher, they're calling the closest allied military unit ...
And let me know the next time Wells Fargo clears a busy street (even in Detroit) with a fusillade of automatic weapons fire 'warning shots' ....
We can quit comparing apples and bowling balls any time now.
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon" Operation Freedom Fry
Wicked Pilot wrote:Are you all suggesting that the armed guards, many of which are discharged soldiers, who drive Wells Fargo trucks into the worst of gettos of Detroit, where there are hundreds of people who wouldn't think twice of capping them and taking their goods are mercenaries?
Are they working for the military? Why, no, they aren't. So no, they wouldn't be. Any more semantical bullshit you'd like to pull while looking increasingly childish?
I beleive Chmee's alarmism about mercenaries is bullshit, but constant attempts to redefine the term is equally bullshit. While I maintain a healthy skepticism of the reliability of these folks, the fact they are, in many cases, people whose terms are up and then offered lucrative deals to do it again, means they are better and different from Machiavelli's nightmare.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:
Are they working for the military? Why, no, they aren't. So no, they wouldn't be. Any more semantical bullshit you'd like to pull while looking increasingly childish?
You know, the US military employs swarms of civilian security guards to protect most of its bases within the continental United States. Even Area 51 is guarded, at least at its outer most perimeter, by hired civilian guards.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
SirNitram wrote:
Are they working for the military? Why, no, they aren't. So no, they wouldn't be. Any more semantical bullshit you'd like to pull while looking increasingly childish?
You know, the US military employs swarms of civilian security guards to protect most of its bases within the continental United States. Even Area 51 is guarded, at least at its outer most perimeter, by hired civilian guards.
The 'Cross this line and we shoot you' perimeter or the Groom Lake fence?
I'm basing my consideration here off them performing more than just guard duty, which is what I've been under the impression they do.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
SirNitram wrote:
The 'Cross this line and we shoot you' perimeter or the Groom Lake fence?
The ones at Area 51 certainly would shoot you if they felt it was necessary, the area is filled with signs saying lethal force is authorized if you cross the line they are guarding; as would the civilian guards at other US military bases. But the area is so well wired with sensors and manned lookout posts that even people who are attempting to get past the fence are inevitably caught short of it. Anyway, most people aren't stupid enough (amazing, I know) to do something sufficiently stupid so as to get themselves shot.
I'm basing my consideration here off them performing more than just guard duty, which is what I've been under the impression they do.
Everything they do is either guarding a convoy or guarding fixed points they've been contracted to protect. They don't go out and search out insurgents or sweep for roadside bombs or anything like that. However, those are just the sorts of roles that classic mercenary would be employed to do, with them acting just like another solider. Certainly classical mercenaries wouldn't have been flying around in an unarmed helicopter.
Also, has anyone else seen the video, which the insurgents released of this whole thing? I saw it on NBC, and it shows that one person did survive the crash and was injured but able to walk around and talk. After a little bit however, the insurgents then simply shoot and murder him.
Two posts merged as requested. -AV
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
SirNitram wrote:I beleive Chmee's alarmism about mercenaries is bullshit, but constant attempts to redefine the term is equally bullshit.
Eh, just as a brief reminder, the OP was a critique of the media for exactly this semantical bullshit ... so I'm not sure what 'alarmism' would even be talking about.
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon" Operation Freedom Fry
Markos Moulitsas Zuniga wrote:Every death should be on the front page (2.70 / 40)
Let the people see what war is like. This isn’t an Xbox game. There are real repercussions to Bush’s folly.
That said, I feel nothing over the death of merceneries [sic]. They aren’t in Iraq because of orders, or because they are there trying to help the people make Iraq a better place. They are there to wage war for profit. Screw them.
by kos on Thu Apr 1st, 2004 at 12:08:56 PDT
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
SirNitram wrote:Are they working for the military? Why, no, they aren't. So no, they wouldn't be.
But if they made a pickup from a commissary they would be? What if they were delivering a quarter of a million dollars in cash to a warship about to set sail, are they mercenaries then?
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
Shit .... now supposedly there's video of them killing a crash survivor ...
The video zooms out, showing the man in the middle of the frame, and then the cameraman gives the order to shoot. The victim turns toward his killer and shots are fired, bullets strike him repeatedly, even after he falls to the ground.
"We are applying God's law," a voice says in Arabic.
Before he is shot to death, the man tells insurgents, "My leg is broken" but he is forced to stand.
The footage does not show the helicopter actually being shot down.
The video, which carried the group's logo, was posted on Web sites used by Islamic groups. Arabic-language network Al-Jazeera aired portions of it.
The helicopter was ferrying passengers from Baghdad to Tikrit, and was to have picked up people for a return trip to the capital when it went down north of Baghdad.
The Bulgarian Defense Ministry said missile fire downed the chopper, and U.S. military sources suspect that was the case.
[img=right]http://www.tallguyz.com/imagelib/chmeesig.jpg[/img]My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but
Mrs. Spade didn't raise any children dippy enough to
make guesses in front of a district attorney,
an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.
Sam Spade, "The Maltese Falcon" Operation Freedom Fry
Are they active duty members of a military? If no, then proceed.
Are they being paid for their services?
Are they serving in a position traditionally filled by military personnel?
Are they armed?
Are they serving in a combat zone?
If the answer to all four of these questions is yes, then they are probably a mercenary. It is possible there are rare exceptions to this, but I cannot think of any off the top of my head. This excludes semantic whoring about academy instructors, deliverymen, and Wells Fargo truck drivers. Thank you and good night .
Stanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
Wicked Pilot wrote:
That covers the Kurds, but if they're Americans working for the American Army then they're not mercenaries right?
I think that might be a bit of a gray area. IMO if they are fighting for money and didn't swear an oath to the country than they are mercs regardless of whether they are actually fighting for their home country or not. These guys may serve America but they don't actually belong to the American military.
If they are, then at my base are the civilian contractors who man the gate, instruct academics, clean the offices, mow the grass, etc, mercenaries also?
Umm, no. I think this only applies to those who actually take up arms. Although I suppose an argument could be made that the civvie guard at the gate is a merc as well. Bit of a gray area though.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Who cares if they're mercenaries? I mean really? Chmee pointed it out as though security contractor was a euphemism for mercenary. If it was, uh so what? If it isn't... ditto?
Why is the semantics an issue here? Did mercenary become a dirty word in everyone's lexicon?
Stofsk wrote:Who cares if they're mercenaries? I mean really? Chmee pointed it out as though security contractor was a euphemism for mercenary. If it was, uh so what? If it isn't... ditto?
Why is the semantics an issue here? Did mercenary become a dirty word in everyone's lexicon?
I personally don't care. But I do see a differance between these people, most of whom have been hired by contractors working for the US goverment in Iraq, not the US military directly, and mercenaries whom are hired to be soldiers and actively fight a war
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Roland was a warrior from the Land of the Midnight Sun
With a Thompson gun for hire, fighting to be done
The deal was made in Denmark on a dark and stormy day
So he set out for Biafra to join the bloody fray
Through sixty-six and seven they fought the Congo war
With their fingers on their triggers, knee-deep in gore
For days and nights they battled the Bantu to their knees
They killed to earn their living and to help out the Congolese
Roland the Thompson gunner...
Roland the Thompson gunner...
His comrades fought beside him - Van Owen and the rest
But of all the Thompson gunners, Roland was the best
So the CIA decided they wanted Roland dead
That son-of-a-bitch Van Owen blew off Roland's head
Roland the headless Thompson gunner
(Time, time, time
For another peaceful war)
Norway's bravest son
(But time stands still for Roland
Til he evens up the score)
They can still see his headless body stalking through the night
In the muzzle flash of Roland's Thompson gun
In the muzzle flash of Roland's Thompson gun
Roland searched the continent for the man who'd done him in
He found him in Mombassa in a barroom drinking gin
Roland aimed his Thompson gun - he didn't say a word
But he blew Van Owen's body from there to Johannesburg
Roland the headless Thompson gunner...
Roland the headless Thompson gunner...
Roland the headless Thompson gunner...
Roland the headless Thompson gunner...
The eternal Thompson gunner
still wandering through the night
Now it's ten years later but he still keeps up the fight
In Ireland, in Lebanon, in Palestine and Berkeley
Patty Hearst heard the burst of Roland's Thompson gun and bought it
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
.
