Did voyager cause enterprise

[dragon]

I was wondering if the contradrictions in enterprise is due to all the technologies brought into the past. For examle when voyager went back in time they discovered that a company had arisen using advanced technology recovered for the crashed 29th century space craft. And even though they stopped the destruction of the 29th century they still went back in time. After all they rembered doing it and they still had in hand the emitter from the future.


Also with E-E going back in time to the launch of ther Phoneix Cohcran and Lilly both saw examples of future tech and might have gotten ideas.

Edit gotta love temporal paradoxes

[Patrick Degan]

Also with E-E going back in time to the launch of ther Phoneix Cohcran and Lilly both saw examples of future tech and might have gotten ideas.

It wouldn't have mattered if both Cochrane and Lily had been given guided tours of the Enterprise and saw everything there was to see on the ship; their society lacked both the industrial and more importantly the technological capacity to duplicate any of it, and two people observing things doesn't translate into the ability to produce detailed technical schematics to act as a guide.

[dragon]

Also with E-E going back in time to the launch of ther Phoneix Cohcran and Lilly both saw examples of future tech and might have gotten ideas.

It wouldn't have mattered if both Cochrane and Lily had been given guided tours of the Enterprise and saw everything there was to see on the ship; their society lacked both the industrial and more importantly the technological capacity to duplicate any of it, and two people observing things doesn't translate into the ability to produce detailed technical schematics to act as a guide.

True but did the 29th century ship have a user guide to allow an even more primitive tech access to a higher tech. And just observing an item can gives clues on how to go in a new direction.

[Bounty]

It wouldn't have mattered if both Cochrane and Lily had been given guided tours of the Enterprise and saw everything there was to see on the ship; their society lacked both the industrial and more importantly the technological capacity to duplicate any of it,

Seeing the odd aerodynamic shape of the E-E may have caused Cochrane to go back to the drawing board and pay more attention to the shape of warp ships, thus explaining why ENT ships aren't the flying beachballs they're supposed to be.

His knowledge that he'd be a great hero and saviour of the human race may have made him (and humans with him) more arrogant towards the Vulcans, explaining their mutual hostility and the Vulcan's reluctance to let humans explore space on their own.

Barclay or the repair team may have dropped hints about the workings of warp fields or subspace behaviour which Cochrane or other human engineers weren't supposed to find out for several more decades, allowing a faster development of propulsion and comm tech.

[dragon]

It wouldn't have mattered if both Cochrane and Lily had been given guided tours of the Enterprise and saw everything there was to see on the ship; their society lacked both the industrial and more importantly the technological capacity to duplicate any of it,

Seeing the odd aerodynamic shape of the E-E may have caused Cochrane to go back to the drawing board and pay more attention to the shape of warp ships, thus explaining why ENT ships aren't the flying beachballs they're supposed to be.

His knowledge that he'd be a great hero and saviour of the human race may have made him (and humans with him) more arrogant towards the Vulcans, explaining their mutual hostility and the Vulcan's reluctance to let humans explore space on their own.

Barclay or the repair team may have dropped hints about the workings of warp fields or subspace behaviour which Cochrane or other human engineers weren't supposed to find out for several more decades, allowing a faster development of propulsion and comm tech.

Also you never know if they managed to not leave behind something like a tricorder. I can't count the number of times engineers today forget to pick up their tools

[Tommy J]

Seeing the odd aerodynamic shape of the E-E may have caused Cochrane to go back to the drawing board and pay more attention to the shape of warp ships, thus explaining why ENT ships aren't the flying beachballs they're supposed to be.

What is it with the obsession to try to re-explain continuity errors through convoluted explanations? Cars were boxy in 1966. Cars were becoming rounder in 1987 during Next Gen. Look below and you have your explanation as to ship design continuity errors.



A 1966 Ford Mercury




A 2004 Ford Mercury

[Tommy J]

Next someone will try to explain the black plastic TOS Bridge swivel chairs only to be replaced by ergonomically correct bridge chairs as a time travel foible as well. To quote Dr. Smith on Lost in Space, "oh the pain, oh the pain......"

[Tommy J]

Next someone will try to explain the black plastic TOS Bridge swivel chairs only to be replaced by ergonomically correct bridge chairs as a time travel foible as well. To quote Dr. Smith on Lost in Space, "oh the pain, oh the pain......"

No.... that would advances with time. That didn't break continuity. Enterprise did.

Destructionator, you know as well as I do, that in some basement right now is a 16 year old trying to re-work all the Enterprise continuity errors through an elaborate schema of time travel coupled with technobabble explanations. I'm just trying to understand this obsession. I mean damn, the TOS ships looked as they did because it was 1966 FX and they did in 1987 for the same ad nausea.

[Patrick Degan]

Also with E-E going back in time to the launch of ther Phoneix Cohcran and Lilly both saw examples of future tech and might have gotten ideas.

It wouldn't have mattered if both Cochrane and Lily had been given guided tours of the Enterprise and saw everything there was to see on the ship; their society lacked both the industrial and more importantly the technological capacity to duplicate any of it, and two people observing things doesn't translate into the ability to produce detailed technical schematics to act as a guide.

True but did the 29th century ship have a user guide to allow an even more primitive tech access to a higher tech. And just observing an item can gives clues on how to go in a new direction.

Not if the future-tech item is based on principles your science is utterly unfamiliar with in the first place.

[Bounty]

I'm just trying to understand this obsession.

Simple. There are far better fan designs for early warp ships out there, and Enterprise made it *very* hard to fit them into the timeline. If you can find canon proof that ENT takes place in an alternate timeline, there's no problem : Tannhausers and Bisons in the original timeline, NX's and Sarajevo's in the alternate one.

[Jon]

I would have thought all the incursions into the timelines (if they are in the same timelines) are predestination paradoxes so there were no changes to the past because they were supposed to happen anyway.

But then that silly scene at the end of Futures End where braxton comes through the rift and says 'I didn't experience that timeline' sods things up.

[2000AD]

The easiest way to explain all thelack of continuity between Enterprise and other series is First Contact.

In the Enterprise episode with the Borg T'Pol (IIRC) mentions that Cochrane occasionaly rambled about them but was dismissed as going senile. That along with Borg wreckage gives a nice handy alternate time line, thus explaining all the massive inconsitences.

IIRC someone (Nitram or Ossus i think) made a nice Back to the Future style time line to illustrate this.

[Junghalli]

The easiest way to explain all thelack of continuity between Enterprise and other series is First Contact.
In the Enterprise episode with the Borg T'Pol (IIRC) mentions that Cochrane occasionaly rambled about them but was dismissed as going senile. That along with Borg wreckage gives a nice handy alternate time line, thus explaining all the massive inconsitences.

In one of Shatner's novels (yes, he writes Trek as well as playing Captain Kirk) First Contact was the origin point of the evil Mirror Universe. Humans became aware of the Borg and although it probably wasn't public knowledge, or neccessarily even widely believed it was enough to steer human expansion into a more militaristic bent because they expected to find some great threat out there.
I do like the irony of that, Picard & co. going back in time to save the Federation and they end up creating the evil Terran Empire instead. And I guess this would make ENT take place in the early years of the Mirror Universe human expansion before the founding of the TE, so I can live with that.

[Bounty]

And I guess this would make ENT take place in the early years of the Mirror Universe human expansion before the founding of the TE,

Expect your theory to fall during the next few episodes of ENT. Sorry.

[Nick Lancaster]

In one of Shatner's novels (yes, he writes Trek as well as playing Captain Kirk) First Contact was the origin point of the evil Mirror Universe.

Shatner can't even count down from 23. He's not a terribly reliable source.

Also, and it may be urban legend, I thought Shatner's novels (possibly Tek War rather than his later Trek books) had been ghost-written by Ron Goulart.

Still, I had made an uncomplimentary comment about Shatner, and the gentleman sitting at a nearby table said, 'That's not entirely fair or true, Bill is really a nice guy.' The gentleman's nametag: David Gerrold.

[Penfold]

The easiest way to explain all thelack of continuity between Enterprise and other series is First Contact.

In the Enterprise episode with the Borg T'Pol (IIRC) mentions that Cochrane occasionaly rambled about them but was dismissed as going senile. That along with Borg wreckage gives a nice handy alternate time line, thus explaining all the massive inconsitences.

Unfortunately, Archer and T'pol threw a monkey wrench into that idea when they talked about the transmission sent just before the assimilated ship was destroyed. ENT: "Regeneration" apparently leads to TNG: "The Neutral Zone," so unless you want to boot a first season TNG episode out of canon, the movie and ENT episode were supposed to happen.

Besides, blaming "First Contact" for the twisted history in ENT is taking the lazy way out. It's sort of random (Why not blame Guinan's first meeting with Picard? It happened even earlier, and perhaps Mark Twain let something slip.) and it doesn't explain everything, like the Xindi attack.

My personal approach is somewhat different: instead of thinking of ENT as an already changed timeline, I think of it as watching people actively try to change history right before my eyes. In other words, any scene that features or is influenced by the Suliban and/or Cabal, the Xindi and/or the Sphere Builders, or Daniels isn't supposed to happen, and we are watching history deviate as the secen progresses.

Here's an example:

Problem:
First contact with the Klingons is supposed to have been a bloody affair, but this is not what is shown in ENT: "Broken Bow." In the episode, a Klingon crashes in Okalhoma and is shot by a farmer. Enterprise takes the Klingon to his people without incident (between humans and Klingons).

Analysis:
Where was the Klingon going to when he crashed? To see the High Council.

Why was he going to see the High Council? He had information on the Suliban.

Who are the Suliban? A formerly unimportant species that is now a significant problem in the region.

If they were unimportant, why are they a problem now? They have help from a group known as the Cabal.

Who is this Cabal? A group of people from the future (probably humans) who are trying to prevent the formation of the Federation. In pursuit of this goal, they have sent scientific, engineering, and historical data back in time to the Suliban.

Solution:
ENT: First contact with the Klingons happened in "Broken Bow" because of the Cabal's indirect influence. Note that the events of the episode cause Enterprise to start its exploration mission several weeks early and from a different region of space. This may have an effect on some of their encounters early in the series.

Take it for what you will, as I've been known to do all sorts of mental gymnastics to shoehorn B&B's lack of respect for continuity into canon, and I may have finally lost my mind.[/i]

[18-Till-I-Die]

Penfold's idea sounds prety good to me.

But i'm not a long term ST fan so...anything beyond DS9 and Voyager before 7 of 9 came along is a blur to me.

[CDiehl]

I'm reminded of Ken and Andrew's Rule of Plot Holes, from Jabootu.com. It says, "if a viewer is forced to construct (or attempt to construct) an elaborate framework of suppositions in order to cover over some hole in a film’s plot, then somebody on the production side of things hasn’t been doing their job." Obviously, it can extend to TV also.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

True but did the 29th century ship have a user guide to allow an even more primitive tech access to a higher tech. And just observing an item can gives clues on how to go in a new direction.

Simply seeing something and/or hearing how it works in no way compares to actually being able to study and research a device for months or years.

[Junghalli]

Simply seeing something and/or hearing how it works in no way compares to actually being able to study and research a device for months or years.

No, but it may help you out and give you ideas.
For instance, civilization A creates an FTL drive. It's limited to 200 c until somebody figures out that if you attach a <insert technobabble device> to it you can get up to 10,000 c.
Somebody from civilization B hears that a <insert technobabble device> is part of what makes an FTL drive work. When civilization B begins building their own FTL drives they attach a crude version of the <insert technobabble device>, thus skipping over the hundreds of years civilization A spent before somebody stumbled into this.

[RedImperator]

Simply seeing something and/or hearing how it works in no way compares to actually being able to study and research a device for months or years.

No, but it may help you out and give you ideas.
For instance, civilization A creates an FTL drive. It's limited to 200 c until somebody figures out that if you attach a <insert technobabble device> to it you can get up to 10,000 c.
Somebody from civilization B hears that a <insert technobabble device> is part of what makes an FTL drive work. When civilization B begins building their own FTL drives they attach a crude version of the <insert technobabble device>, thus skipping over the hundreds of years civilization A spent before somebody stumbled into this.

That's still too much. They might have no idea at all how the device--call it a turbocharger, for the purpose of discission--works. They might not even know the elementary principles behind it.

The leap comes if B has been happily motoring along fo years, trying to improve their warp drive in increments by tinkering with the coils, the reactor, whatever, and suddenly on of A's starships comes whizzing by with its turbochargers lit up. Up until now, B's engineers had no idea you could turbocharge a warp drive. Now they know it's possible, and they know to start looking for ways to do it.

Or to look at it another way: Leonardo DiVinci was (IIRC) aware of the basic principle behind a steam engine. Heat water in an enclosed chamber, and high pressure steam will provide kinetic energy. He could build one of those little spinning steam balls easily, and probably improve on it in any number of ways. Now show him a steam locomotive--in motion, blowing smoke and hissing steam. Could he build one, even a very crude one? No--the infrastructure isn't there, the metallurgy isn't there. But suddenly he knows that steam can drive a piston, which can turn wheels which can carry the steam engine. Now he (and everyone who comes after him) knows it's possible, and all the years spent with nobody realizing what a steam engine can do are wiped out, and the work shifts immediately to figuring out how to build one.