A quick question on the Sovereign class:

[Rogue 9]

Notice how the Enterprise was able to continue striking the Scimitar for some time while it was cloaked. Firing through the cloak is only an advantage for alpha strikes in the time of TNG+.

I did notice, which is why a nice little area effect weapon would be so effective. Fire a pattern, notice where the patern is disturbed and hit the cloaked ship before they fire. Once detected the pattern needed to be sweep before each salvo will not be that big.

Also didn't this fight take place in some form of nebula dense enough to prevent communication? In that case the Scimitar should leave an actual trail through the gasses!

I do not hate the cloaking device, I like the concept of the space-subs. I do hate the constant incompetence displayed in fighting them though by constantly surprised SF officers staring in eternal surprise and disbelief at decloaking Romulans(or whatever). I do also hate the Über-cloak that pop up now and then allowing ships to operate under cloak with no penalties whatsoever. Defiant got beaten up rather badly by the Dominion despite running as silent as possible, a good plot on the dangers of cloaking devices btw. Scimitar matched the speed and power of the Sovereign without any problems or penalties. Not only did they have power to keep pace with Ent-E then they had just as much power to cover their tracks, one wonders why they even bothered with the cloak in the first place? Perhaps the ripple effects of the cloak is easier on the SFX budget than the ship itself...

The Scimitar was also far larger than the E-E, and had to have much greater power generating capabilities just for the superweapon OF PWNING DOOM, whatever they called it. As for why they were bothering with the cloak, the less you get hit by the Big E, the better. That, and they were dealing with two Warbirds as well.

[CJvR]

Later cloaks were more advanced than cloak of Kirk's time and probably disguised whatever EM signatures/Tachyon particles/technobabble they left behind better.

Yeah, but as long as you can hit a ship under cloak with weapons it will obviously be exposed by high energy detonations. Kirk was able to get a good enough read on the BoP to fire for effect.
Im simply suggesting firing such charges to reveal the ships position for the main barrage, a tactic that would work on every cloak ever used by the Feds enemies.
Phased cloaks might alter this but noone have those.

Also, Janeway and Co. consider using Spatial Charges to force the Think-Tank out of cloak. Considering we've never seen these spatial charges, they're probably just modified torpedoes proximity fused with a special warhead.

Pity they forgot to equip Ent-E with them then... The were only going to Romulus after all. What are the odds of running into a cloaking device there?

[Alyeska]

Something to consider about the Scimitar. I did an estimate on the total number of torpedoes the Enterprise-E could have fired based on onscreen fire rates in the time allotted to the point where the Enterprise ran out of torpedoes. I cam up with an estimate where the Scimitar took almost 200 photon torpedoes, and this is using a refire rate below the observed refire rates of each launcher. And do remember the Scimitar still had 70% shields.

I think the Scimitar was able to use the power it directed to the medusa cannon for its shields when the medusa cannon was not being readied to fire. This explains why the Scimitar had such bloody powerful shields. IMO, its shields are more powerful in comparison then its weapon count.

[brianeyci]

Im simply suggesting firing such charges to reveal the ships position for the main barrage, a tactic that would work on every cloak ever used by the Feds enemies.
Phased cloaks might alter this but noone have those.

Depends on whether they know the specific location to target. Do the geometry, 0.1 MT proximity fused torpedoes exploding means around 5 x 5 x 5 meters of proxmity for just a measly 1 KT of energy released per cubic meter! You have to know the general area of a ship to use the proximity idea, and practically have to know where they are. Barrage idea would not work on good cloaks which did not give you a general idea where they were.

Pity they forgot to equip Ent-E with them then... The were only going to Romulus after all. What are the odds of running into a cloaking device there?

Maybe the Romulans have countermeasures against spatial charges. Idea was brought up by B'Elanna, who had a couple years of SF training. It must be general knowledge to use spatial charges to force them out of cloak. Note that Voyager never used spatial charges, so perhaps the plan would have failed against the Think Tank. The only point brining up spatial charges is to show that the proximity idea is standard SF training.

Brian

[CJvR]

The Scimitar was also far larger than the E-E, and had to have much greater power generating capabilities just for the superweapon OF PWNING DOOM, whatever they called it.

Yes, so it's imence powersignature should be even harder to conceal. Particular when chasing the Ent-E at flank speed, one of the fastest ships in SF.

As for why they were bothering with the cloak, the less you get hit by the Big E, the better. That, and they were dealing with two Warbirds as well.

Well either Sci payed a penalty for operating under cloak or she didn't. If she didn't that is a case of Über-cloaking which I find most annoying. If she did then, considering how easy she defeated three enemies, decloaking and blasting them would have worked just as well if not better.

[CJvR]

This explains why the Scimitar had such bloody powerful shields. IMO, its shields are more powerful in comparison then its weapon count.

Again raising the question why even bother with the cloak?

[CJvR]

You have to know the general area of a ship to use the proximity idea, and practically have to know where they are. Barrage idea would not work on good cloaks which did not give you a general idea where they were.

To do serious damage yes, proximity weapons waste their energy at enormous rates. But to detect a cloaking device far lower intensity would be required since you would be looking for a disturbance in the detonation patterns. And with the combat ranges in ST there isn't that much space to hide in.
A wide beam phaser would also be excelent for sweeping or continously firing low yield phasers in patterns to keep track on a cloaked ships once detected.

[brianeyci]

To do serious damage yes, proximity weapons waste their energy at enormous rates. But to detect a cloaking device far lower intensity would be required since you would be looking for a disturbance in the detonation patterns. And with the combat ranges in ST there isn't that much space to hide in.

That makes tons of assumptions. For example, that the ship is going to attack in the first place. Picard in TNG for example was trying to stop Sela from delivering supplies who were actively trying to avoid Fed fleet, not attack.

Attacking a cloaked ship that doesn't want to be found is far harder.

If you are able to redirect and shield light and heat with a cloaking device, why would you not be able to redirect the disturbances to some extent? Cloaking device must redirect/dissipate waste heat, or else tracking with photon torpedo would be the usual tactic and it is not after ST:VI.

A wide beam phaser would also be excelent for sweeping or continously firing low yield phasers in patterns to keep track on a cloaked ships once detected.

Depends on whether the cloaked ship can deal with the disturbances phasers and photons make when detonating. Also assumes that SF sensors are advanced enough to detect these disturbances. Hell, SF sensors weren't advanced enough to lock onto Miranda in Mutara Nebula even though they had a clear visual.

Brian

[Rogue 9]

I'm pretty sure that cloaked ships don't want to be found by definition, since they're running cloaks.

[brianeyci]

I'm pretty sure that cloaked ships don't want to be found by definition, since they're running cloaks.

You know what I mean. He brought up Star Trek combat ranges, and what I mean is that anybody that stays out of combat range can avoid the proximity fused torpedoes and widebeam. The short range of weapons is a plus for cloak, not a detraction.

Brian

[CJvR]

Attacking a cloaked ship that doesn't want to be found is far harder.

Oh yes! IM not suggesting blasting sensor echoes indiscriminatly, it would piss off the Klingons for sure . No IM suggesting methods for proven hostiles. Involved in actual fighting.

If you are able to redirect and shield light and heat with a cloaking device, why would you not be able to redirect the disturbances to some extent? Cloaking device must redirect/dissipate waste heat, or else tracking with photon torpedo would be the usual tactic and it is not after ST:VI.

Yeah but redirecting & dissipating isn't enough. If you dissipate or redirect the expanding plasma sphere of a dirty bomb you will leave a detectable trail unless you are able to recreate the plasma wave on the other side of the ship. Also if CDs are able to R&D anything weapons would be useless anyway.

Also IIRC they used Photorps with homing devices in ST:VI. Other than that weren't they doing the same as in Nem, firing randomly?

Depends on whether the cloaked ship can deal with the disturbances phasers and photons make when detonating. Also assumes that SF sensors are advanced enough to detect these disturbances.

If you sweep by phasor you don't need to detonate the beam since the absence of beam on the other side of the CD will be enough. This is essentially the same thing Picard did in Nem, IM only suggesting specialized improvments to cover vastly more volume with less energy. Sweeping with full power main Phasers is a waste, they should be on standby to fire if anything is detected.

[CJvR]

I'm pretty sure that cloaked ships don't want to be found by definition, since they're running cloaks. :P

No, but if they wan't to fight they have to get close to the enemy and then you don't have to sweep the galaxy to look for them.

[Alyeska]

Something to consider. Prior to the Scimitar, TNG+ era ships couldn't even power shields while cloaked. It was general in their best interest to stay as hidden as possible.

[brianeyci]

No IM suggesting methods for proven hostiles. Involved in actual fighting.

Then the whole point is moot. If a cloak is advanced enough, standard sensors won't be able to detect it. Therefore, you won't know when to begin your phaser/photon sweep of the area, unless you want to do it randomly.

If the battle starts, a ship decloaks for full firepower. Scimitar is the exception, not the rule. Shinzon was being stupid for not decloaking his entire ship, he could have rerouted all that power to the shields and weapons. This may have been deliberate however, since Shinzon knew that Ent-E could not match Scimitar 1 - 1 and wanted to capture Ent-E, so who cares if you stay in cloak? In other words Shinzon was lazy and didn't order decloak

Brian

[Knife]

Then the whole point is moot. If a cloak is advanced enough, standard sensors won't be able to detect it. Therefore, you won't know when to begin your phaser/photon sweep of the area, unless you want to do it randomly.

If the battle starts, a ship decloaks for full firepower. Scimitar is the exception, not the rule. Shinzon was being stupid for not decloaking his entire ship, he could have rerouted all that power to the shields and weapons. This may have been deliberate however, since Shinzon knew that Ent-E could not match Scimitar 1 - 1 and wanted to capture Ent-E, so who cares if you stay in cloak? In other words Shinzon was lazy and didn't order decloak

Brian

No limits fallacy. As pointed out before, the more power you make to power the uber cloak of doom, the more power you'll have to mask. A better cloak probably has more to do with balance and effieciency than anything else, which in turn makes them a really specialized piece of equipment.

*sigh* another good piece of Trek-o-ramma that has been over used and streched into crapp-o-la.

The proximity fuse tactic has real merit, reminds me of mine and Aly's argument over torpedo bursts against fighters. The concept is the same.

Of course, you'll have to have some semblence of a starting point. "Captain, weird power fluxuation off the port bow." Or some such. Unless they have a phase cloak, the changes of the blast patter gives em away. Wide beam phaser would probably be best though if you knew the vague area of the target, a torpedo volly with proximity fuses followed up by a main phaser strike when the target is painted would probably be the best.

[brianeyci]

No limits fallacy. As pointed out before, the more power you make to power the uber cloak of doom, the more power you'll have to mask. A better cloak probably has more to do with balance and effieciency than anything else, which in turn makes them a really specialized piece of equipment.

Excuse me? How does the above refute my point that ships decloak to provide power to weapons and shields? Or that you have to know when to start your proximity attack?

Brian

[Manus Celer Dei]

Also, Janeway and Co. consider using Spatial Charges to force the Think-Tank out of cloak. Considering we've never seen these spatial charges, they're probably just modified torpedoes proximity fused with a special warhead.

Pity they forgot to equip Ent-E with them then... The were only going to Romulus after all. What are the odds of running into a cloaking device there?

IIRC spatial charges were first seen being used by the Malon in the delta quadrant and Voyager was never seen using them. Since almost none of the technology Voyager encountered has been replicated by starfleet, it's not surprising Ent-E wasn't equipped with them.

[Knife]

Excuse me? How does the above refute my point that ships decloak to provide power to weapons and shields? Or that you have to know when to start your proximity attack?

Brian

Wasn't replying to that bit, rather this;

Then the whole point is moot. If a cloak is advanced enough, standard sensors won't be able to detect it. Therefore, you won't know when to begin your phaser/photon sweep of the area, unless you want to do it randomly.

The point is not moot, and the 'more advanced' it gets is how the Romulans respond to Federation detection techniques. Saying that the more advanced it gets, the more the Feddies won't be able to detect it is the 'no limits fallacy'.

Sure, alot of that 'advancement' will be effieciency and power generation and such, but some of it will be in response to enemy counter operations, to 'fix holes in the cloak' as it were.

If (and purely out of my ass, but as an example) the Feds discover that Xrays can detect Rom Cloak, then the Rom's have to patch it so Xray's don't. Next, maybe the Fed's discover than gamma radiation detects cloaks. Now the Rom's need to patch that too and figure out if they need to keep the Xray patch. So on and so on. Now, as counters keep piling up, you'll have more complex systems and more power needed for the system, thus needing a better cloak to mask that power.

Sooner or later, you'll have to decied on what 'former' patches you'll need to drop so the system isn't as cumbersome, power hungry, ect.... Once you drop those, the system is now vulnerable to them as well.

Like I said earlier, a cloak would be more about effieciency and balance than anything.

[Knife]

Damn, hit submit to early.

On this;

How does the above refute my point that ships decloak to provide power to weapons and shields? Or that you have to know when to start your proximity attack?

I did mention that you'd need a starting point. If a cloaked ship just shadows you, obviously you would not know it. So you just wouldn't just out of the blue decide to start shooting torpedo's and phasers into space.

But, iirc, in TNG cloaks don't do a perfect job of hiding Warp signitures when they come into and out of Warp. The Warp signiture or what ever.

If the Feds come into a tactical situation with a cloaked ship, like what happens alot, then CJvR has a good tactic to deal with it.