Is there Pop Culure in Star Trek?

[Stofsk]

Oh, I see. So you have indepth knowledge of how the Federation political system works and how daily life of an average Federation citizen works? Yes, very good.

You're a whiny bitch sometimes, Brian. And proof that there is just no pleasing some people.

I should note that my theory takes into account many disparate events and characters... your theory "They have virtual sex all day! Yayas! fapfapfap" doesn't explain the Prime Directive, at all. That's just one example.

You proposed certain things, like the Federation not inspiring loyalty based on the actions of one officer,

And of entire colonial systems... but lets just forget that because it's inconvenient.

the Federation promoting racial profiling based on the opinions of a few,

Academy training for the officer of tommorow. More than a few, and indeed, these people will be the Federation's officers and ambassadors, so yes, it is significant.

and so on. Hasty generalizations on your part.

Strawmen on your part.

Luck doesn't run for hundreds of years, especially if the Federation is as flawed as you say they are.

Once again you strawman my position. I don't know why I bother.

The Federation is flawed, but newsflash! they're not the only ones.

The Federation is a military alliance. There's no evidence that the Federation replaces local political entities

This is patently false. The UFP President is an elected official of the Federation member states, and the Federation council is made up of representatives of all the member states. To say 'There's no evidence that the Federation replaces local political entities' is absurd, as it is a red herring - newsflash! A federation style government DOESN'T REPLACE LOCAL POLITICAL ENTITIES, they only put a centralised one ON TOP OF the local state governing bodies.

-- in fact, Occam's Razor tells us the Feds can't because of their inept ground forces. A united world would not easily give away their cherished political system to the Feds, nor their own institutions.

WHich would be implied were the Federation indeed a CONFEDERATION, which it is not. There is a clear centralised government in the UFP.

This tells us the Federation is more like a shitload of worlds who contribute to a common defense.

No, common defence would be NATO. NATO is not a federated governing body. Unlike the UFP...

This is supported by the words Federation and Starfleet being nearly interchangable.

And the United States Navy being interchangable with the United States of America. I could call a USN ship an 'american ship'. Same deal with a starfleet vessel being a 'Federation vessel'.

If you want to talk about Earth society, fine. The Federation doesn't have a society just like the European Union doesn't have a society, nor does the United Nations.

As Patrick Degan would say, the comedy writes itself.

The Maquis were a band of disgruntled colonists and Federation officers who didn't like how the Federation gave away their colonies in a peace treaty. Note they did not take up arms against the Federation, but against the Cardassians and avoided the Federation when they could.

So when I say the maquis colonies is proof of a fracturuous society, you rebut by saying... the maquis were really just disgruntled? I call bullshit. You obviously saw a different show than I did. In ST the Maquis decided to renounce their Federation citizenship. If you have no concept of what that means, then give up now.

A few examples doesn't mean shit. Picard lists 150 worlds, you don't have proof that the Federation is losing a large number of worlds. Tasha Yar colony and Ezrai colony -- any evidence that these worlds were once in the Federation and left?

Rar! No proof! Jesus, grow a brain for fuck's sake.

A few examples don't mean shit? I gave plenty of examples, you just chose to ignore them because what I said could be construed to mean 'OMG He's insulting Star Trek again! That motherfucker!' For fuck's sake, is a rational discussion with you too much to ask?

[Stofsk]

What do you think would happen when 24th century man lands on a Bronze Age planet? The same thing that virtually ALWAYS happens when a more advanced culture meets a dramatically less advanced one. They'll conquer and exploit them. After all, remember that (aside from idle curiousity) the whole purpose of exploring the stars is to find new RESOURCES to EXPLOIT.

Not quite true, and not quite necessary. There are fantastic levels of resources to exploit in our solar system, so there's no reason to conquer another planet just because it has iron or uranium.

There's also the other fact that like it or not, the colonialists brought with them civilisation, and if they hadn't those bronze age cultures would be stuck in the bronze age.

Sure, maybe we'll have learned our lesson and things will go better this time around, but from what I know of human nature I doubt it. The best way to prevent the European colonial period (and all the seriously bad stuff that went down during it, in case you hadn't noticed) from repeating itself would be to leave such worlds alone (exactly what the PD comes down to).

It doesn't change any problem. THe mere act of exploration is a interference of the other culture (comes the idea of you can't not-interfere if you observe) For the PD to be effective, the Federation needs to stay at home.

[Junghalli]

There's also the other fact that like it or not, the colonialists brought with them civilisation, and if they hadn't those bronze age cultures would be stuck in the bronze age.

Nice way to totally misinterpret my argument. I was saying that the safest way to prevent exploitation of primitive worlds is to ONLY COLONIZE UNINHABITED PLANETS. As in, planets that HAVE NO NATIVE INTELLIGENT LIFEFORMS. Consider for a moment, Earth has been habitable (by our standards) since before the age of the dinosaurs, but humans only evolved in the last couple of hundred thousand years. Planets without native sapient life should be in the vast, VAST majority, so it's not like we'd really be going out of our way.

It doesn't change any problem. THe mere act of exploration is a interference of the other culture (comes the idea of you can't not-interfere if you observe) For the PD to be effective, the Federation needs to stay at home.

See above. I was suggesting precisely that the most responsible policy would be to stay away from planets known to have primitive sapient lifeforms. And saying that means we'd have to stay home to do this is pure BS. Worlds without native sapients will likely outnumber those with by at least hundreds to one, and how are those Bronze Age natives going to know if we colonize the nice UNINHABITED system next door? Well, they might pick up the transmissions when they get around to developing radio, but then presumably the noninterference directive would no longer cover them.

[Stofsk]

There's also the other fact that like it or not, the colonialists brought with them civilisation, and if they hadn't those bronze age cultures would be stuck in the bronze age.

Nice way to totally misinterpret my argument.

Don't be an arsehole. I was speaking in general terms and your argument amounted to 'the colonialists were bad people', which is a black/white way of looking at things.

I was saying that the safest way to prevent exploitation of primitive worlds is to ONLY COLONIZE UNINHABITED PLANETS. As in, planets that HAVE NO NATIVE INTELLIGENT LIFEFORMS. Consider for a moment, Earth has been habitable (by our standards) since before the age of the dinosaurs, but humans only evolved in the last couple of hundred thousand years. Planets without native sapient life should be in the vast, VAST majority, so it's not like we'd really be going out of our way.

Except, given the limitations of warp drive, this is EXACTLY what it means.

See above. I was suggesting precisely that the most responsible policy would be to stay away from planets known to have primitive sapient lifeforms.

In terms of colonisation, yes. But I was also referring to exploration.

And saying that means we'd have to stay home to do this is pure BS.

No it is not. The very act of observing something can affect the object under observation.

Instead of initiating a series of ethical laws regarding the establishment of trade relations between ambassadors and prewarp civilisations, we get the inviolable Prime Directive, which starfleet captains are indoctrinated to consider sacrosanct and unimpeachable. There have been many occasions where a SF captain has stood by and watched the weak fall, the helpless perish, all in the name of noninterference. Is this what you're defending?

[Enola Straight]

A handful of times on VOY we see Naomi Wyldman in the holodeck with the educational interactive holoprogram Flotter, the water spirit.

Apparently, the 24th century's version of Sesame Street.

[Junghalli]

Don't be an arsehole. I was speaking in general terms and your argument amounted to 'the colonialists were bad people', which is a black/white way of looking at things.

I didn't mean to say that I thought colonization was teh Ev1l. I'm sorry if I sounded that way. What I did mean to say was that I thought the most humane method of dealing with primitive sapients would be to forbid human landings on their worlds, thus allowing their culture to develop in the absence of interference from a more advanced species.

Except, given the limitations of warp drive, this is EXACTLY what it means.

Uh,
Let's say you have a random 15,000 stars (the number you'll find within about 100 light years from Earth). Of these, let's say two thousand have habitable planets. The Earth has been habitable for about 300 million years IIRC, and it has had sapient life for 1 million years (if we consider everything H Erectus and up sapient). So if we crunch the numbers there are seven planets out of those 15,000 that have sapient life. That leaves 1,993 empty habitable planets for the taking.
OMG, we have to establish no fly zones around seven planets out of 2,000! What a horrible, obtrusive barrier to colonization!

No it is not. The very act of observing something can affect the object under observation.

What I would do is have the survey ship take a look at the planet from orbit, and if they see signs of primitive sapient life they don't land and chart the system as a no-fly zone. At the very most the natives would briefly notice a new star in their sky (the spacecraft) for a little while. Sure, that could have some effect on their development, but probably much less than if we sent a survey team down and much, MUCH less than if we plowed in and colonized the place.

Instead of initiating a series of ethical laws regarding the establishment of trade relations between ambassadors and prewarp civilisations, we get the inviolable Prime Directive, which starfleet captains are indoctrinated to consider sacrosanct and unimpeachable.

Yes, the Prime Directive is much too cut and dry. It should have a much greater flexibility of interpretation. For instance, what about a pre-warp civilization that has spread to hundreds of planets with sublight ships? What if the natives start tinkering with radio and intercept our radio transmissions? What about in the case of a natural disaster? Every good law leaves room for situation-specific responses.

There have been many occasions where a SF captain has stood by and watched the weak fall, the helpless perish, all in the name of noninterference. Is this what you're defending?

Not at all, this aspect of the Prime Directive sickens me. The Prime Directive should be there to allow primitive sapient species to develop naturally without interference or exploitation by advanced human civilization. It's there to protect those species. If the freaking planet is loosing its atmosphere then obviously it should no longer apply.
Look, it's one thing if they just don't have the resources to save the planet's population, or even if they just don't care, but to actually act RIGHTEOUS about allowing a species to die... .

[Civil War Man]

Almost makes one want to be transported to a Federation ship, just to introduce our nerd culture to them.

Imagine, some CS geek programming a holodeck FPS. Maybe a HL2 mod, so the user could bust open skulls/crates with crowbars instead of having to resort to guns. Worf would get addicted in seconds, I'd wager.

[Chmee]

Actually 99% of the pop culture in the Federation is manga, but they couldn't put that on network tv!

That is the best explanation I have ever heard. It only needs a couple modifications: due to the prevalence of holosuite technology and the loosening of 21st century "moral values" (thank you, Red States), our network television would find 99% of the now manga-style-dominated 21st century pop culture even more unairable than last year's infamous wardrobe malfunction.

Either that or the Federation is culturally enslaved to the Soulless Minions of Orthodoxy.

Exactly. What are the 2 most popular entertainments in the Federation? Holodecks and holiday cruises to Raisa ....

[Stofsk]

I didn't mean to say that I thought colonization was teh Ev1l. I'm sorry if I sounded that way. What I did mean to say was that I thought the most humane method of dealing with primitive sapients would be to forbid human landings on their worlds, thus allowing their culture to develop in the absence of interference from a more advanced species.

In a way you're right, mainly concerning colonisation. For instance, it is foolhardy to colonise a planet that is already inhabited by a sapient species that has erected for itself a progressive civilisation. (whether it be in bronze age, agricultural or industrial stages of technological evolution) In this respect I would agree, colonising a planet that already has an established civilisation isn't good at all: the civilisation will fall, there will be long term repercussions from the colonisation, and two species will compete for resources.

On the other hand, I don't know about restricting all contact with the civilisation in question. I'll get to this in a moment.

Except, given the limitations of warp drive, this is EXACTLY what it means.

Uh,

Let's say you have a random 15,000 stars (the number you'll find within about 100 light years from Earth). Of these, let's say two thousand have habitable planets. The Earth has been habitable for about 300 million years IIRC, and it has had sapient life for 1 million years (if we consider everything H Erectus and up sapient). So if we crunch the numbers there are seven planets out of those 15,000 that have sapient life. That leaves 1,993 empty habitable planets for the taking.

OMG, we have to establish no fly zones around seven planets out of 2,000! What a horrible, obtrusive barrier to colonization!

Yet life-sustaining planets can be located in strategically viable sectors of the galaxy. Say for example, the kind of 'leap frog' military tactics prevalent in ST style warfare. One planet can allow access to multiple angles of approach in enemy hands, which was covered in certain episodes. ("The Defector" in TNG, some of the Klingon episodes in TOS)

There are other limitations to warp drive than simply 'distance covered'. Starships and warfleets need a string of logistics bases set up all throughout the galaxy, in order to maintain combat effectiveness. If it's a choice between erecting a naval supply depot on a planet inhabited by Tyree's people or losing that planet to the Klingons, then in the game of interstellar bricksmanship, you've taken a stumble.

What I would do is have the survey ship take a look at the planet from orbit, and if they see signs of primitive sapient life they don't land and chart the system as a no-fly zone.

Why? These primitives have a culture that is alien from yours, but that doesn't mean some kind of relationship cannot be extended. Nothing says that the Federation explorers have to enslave them, there is undoubtledly a median between 'non interference' and 'exploitation'.

Instead of initiating a series of ethical laws regarding the establishment of trade relations between ambassadors and prewarp civilisations, we get the inviolable Prime Directive, which starfleet captains are indoctrinated to consider sacrosanct and unimpeachable.

Yes, the Prime Directive is much too cut and dry. It should have a much greater flexibility of interpretation. For instance, what about a pre-warp civilization that has spread to hundreds of planets with sublight ships? What if the natives start tinkering with radio and intercept our radio transmissions? What about in the case of a natural disaster? Every good law leaves room for situation-specific responses.

Good points, so the question comes back to the Prime Directive.

It is billed as a measure against 'cultural contamination', but in the show we are lead to believe that this is a one-way door. I don't consider it like that at all. Rather, I consider it a swinging door. If you go in, something in can come out. That's why the PD appears to be doggedly upheld even though it can lead to immoral decisions. And it makes sense and is consistent by the show, if you consider the subtext: the Federation is scared of losing it's own culture due to this 'two-way' door analogy.

Given how SFC prioritises nonfederation aliens, it seems to be clear this is considered a threat to them as much as it is to the alien cultures being 'protected'.

[Patrick Degan]

It should be observed that the attitudes toward the Prime Directive seem to have become considerably more dogmatic and rigid in the TNG era than in the time of TOS, when it was considered not at all beyond the pale to offer trade deals to pre-warp civilisations if their worlds had a vital resource (topaline deposits on Capella IV, "Friday's Child") or were vital as military bases (Organia, "Errand Of Mercy") or would save lives by providing safe harbour to travelers in a distant region (Eminiar VII, "A Taste Of Armageddon").

By contrast, the Prime Directive is rigidly, obsessively observed almost without exception in all cases in Picard's time, even down to simply letting whole peoples die rather than risking cultural contamination or interfering with their destiny. Of course, it takes a truly arrogant mentality to assume that it knows what a given race's destiny would be down to its very end and if it so happens that their planet's about to burn, that race has therefore met its destiny and is shit out of luck.

[brianeyci]

I should note that my theory takes into account many disparate events and characters... your theory "They have virtual sex all day! Yayas! fapfapfap" doesn't explain the Prime Directive, at all. That's just one example.

Explaining the Prime Directive is easy. The Federation needs a reason not to waste its limited resources on useless worlds, and not to give technology to people who might become their enemies. Because the Federation is a bunch of high-horse moralists, they can't bring themselves to see it this way (just like they can't bring themselves to see Ent-D as a warship and say they "don't believe in warships" even though the Ent-D is a heavily armed battlecruiser). You don't need your stupid weak society hypothesis.

And you underestimate the power of sex.

It's an impressive demonstration of the (historic) motivating power of organised religion, and invites the question: Is there any other phenomenon that can motivate people as effectively?

Yes. Sex. That's why Christianity has to demonize sex, because it's such a powerful competitor for the hearts and minds (and wallets) of men.

Sex is a very good explaination of how the Federation holds together, particularly because your hypothesis is negative and suggests the Federation would fall apart, which it hasn't.

And of entire colonial systems... but lets just forget that because it's inconvenient.

We do not know that. We only know that a small band of rebels seized SF technology with the help of SF officers and started attacking Cardassian assets.

Academy training for the officer of tommorow. More than a few, and indeed, these people will be the Federation's officers and ambassadors, so yes, it is significant.

This is not racial profiling dickhead. Telling your officers and diplomats that Ferengi should be avoided is not the same as racism. Ass. The fact that they are told to avoid Ferengi could mean that they think that Ferengi are devious and conniving profit-seeking weasels who will rip you off and have nothing to do with tolerance or racism.

Strawmen on your part.

No its not.

Once again you strawman my position. I don't know why I bother.

The Federation is flawed, but newsflash! they're not the only ones.

Who cares, you have no canon proof for your assertions, and the proof you do present is unrepresentative sample. What we need to know, the inner workings of the Federation political system and how an average non-Earther -- Vulcan, Andorian, Betazed, etc., citizen spends their lives, is missing. If we did, we could see exactly how much loyalty the Federation does inspire, and whether or not citizens view themselves as Federation citizens first or planetary citizens first.

This is patently false. The UFP President is an elected official of the Federation member states, and the Federation council is made up of representatives of all the member states. To say 'There's no evidence that the Federation replaces local political entities' is absurd, as it is a red herring - newsflash! A federation style government DOESN'T REPLACE LOCAL POLITICAL ENTITIES, they only put a centralised one ON TOP OF the local state governing bodies.

You're a dickhead. If Earth was united, and aliens came to ask you to join a "Federation" Earth would not give up their political institutions which were hard fought and earned over the milennia. Neither does SF have the ground forces capable of forcing governments to collaspe.

Federation doesn't mean Federated government any more than the German Democratic Republic was Democratic you dick.

We have evidence that the Vulcans can keep their own defense force, and the Vulcans can have their own Science Council with enough resources to be comparable to the Federation Science Council. And no, there is no proof that Vulcans have any special status in the Federation at all. This is evidence that members of the Federation retain their own native systems of government. Another example is the Kais, do you think Bajor would have given up the Kais to join the Federation? Absolutely not.

The bodies below the top body don't have to lose power over planetary matters. Interstellar matters are handled by the Federation.

No, common defence would be NATO. NATO is not a federated governing body. Unlike the UFP...

You have no proof that the Federation is a Federated governing body other than the word Federation, which is laughable. Do you know how the Federation President enacts laws? How much autonomy that local governments have? I have given the example that Vulcans can maintain a separate defense force and a separate science council for which SF has to ask their permission and was viewed as an alternative to Fed Science Council respectively. Quite a bit of autonomy.

And I notice you put in NATO and not the Eurpoean Union like I mentioned. Just because the Federation has citizens, it doesn't have to mean that the Federation is one homogeneous entity.

And the United States Navy being interchangable with the United States of America. I could call a USN ship an 'american ship'. Same deal with a starfleet vessel being a 'Federation vessel'.

Incorrect.

Or their technology allows them to make it look less severe. The Soviet Union, after all, started in a nation that was already lagging well behind the rest of Europe in terms of technology and living standards. But if you look at the Federation, the terms "Federation" and "Starfleet" are virtually interchangeable. All of the best schools are in Starfleet, not civilian life. All of the top doctors and scientists work for Starfleet. Major events such as planet-scale plagues can be kept secret in the Federation. Starfleet is so powerful that if martial law is declared, a Starfleet Admiral will take direct control of the Federation. The immense influence of Starfleet over the Federation's ostensibly civilian government is actually very reminiscent of Stalinism, Leninism, et al.

DW thinks that this Starfleet versus Federation interchangeability is more than just the name. And, before you jump, the communist argument does not prove the Federation is on the verge of collaspe like you say it is, or that the Federation doesn't inspire loyalty.

Technology making their problems look less severe... gee I wonder what could do that. I don't know, maybe holodecks? The power of sex, which by DW's assertion is just as powerful as the motivating force behind fundamentalist religion?

If you want to talk about Earth society, fine. The Federation doesn't have a society just like the European Union doesn't have a society, nor does the United Nations.

As Patrick Degan would say, the comedy writes itself.

You are refusing to acknowledge that Vulcan society is far different that Earth society, or that every single one of those 150 member planets (if they are not all humans) would have a different kind of society.

So when I say the maquis colonies is proof of a fracturuous society, you rebut by saying... the maquis were really just disgruntled? I call bullshit. You obviously saw a different show than I did. In ST the Maquis decided to renounce their Federation citizenship. If you have no concept of what that means, then give up now.

If the United States chose to give away Hawaii to Aliens to tell them to get off Earth, and Hawaiian citizens chose to renounce their citizenship to the United States, or better yet if this was a European Union deal, that does not prove that the United States is weak or would fall apart the next day. Giving your territory away to appease someone is exactly what the Feds would do given their low stomach for conflict. That does not prove that the rest of the Federation is on the verge of falling apart.

Rar! No proof! Jesus, grow a brain for fuck's sake.

Haha, you try and say you know something about how the Federation political system works, and how citizens NOT on Earth go about their daily business, for which we have no proof for, and you tell me to grow a brain? Fuck off.

A few examples don't mean shit? I gave plenty of examples, you just chose to ignore them because what I said could be construed to mean 'OMG He's insulting Star Trek again! That motherfucker!' For fuck's sake, is a rational discussion with you too much to ask?

You chose to take Starfleet Officers, which have obviously been indoctrinated a certain way. Newsflash, two billion Starfleet personnel is not representative of two trillion Federation citizens. Nor are a few disgruntled citizens on border worlds.

Brian

[Tommy J]

The obvious answer to this whole question is the 'no-fun' answer.

The writers already saddled with trying to maintain canon and continuity with other series, trying to create realistic graphics and sets, and trying to have some 'quasi-science' didn't have the time, $$$, or energy to create another facet of this pseudo future.

Thus, they borrow from our real world past. My question though is why not a more diverse part of our musical and literary history then Shakespeare, Melville, and 1950's Lounge Music?

The only plausible explanation to the above is to not possibly offend any part of the fan-base. Another is, by quoting Shakespeare and the classics to include musical taste is to make them look SMART.

I think it would have been kinda of kewl however if Riker had liked the Beatles or Data had liked Techno Music or something. Guess that was too risqué for Star Trek.

[brianeyci]

Lets reword that:
Telling your officers and diplomats that Asians should be avoided is not the same as racism. Ass. The fact that they are told to avoid Asians could mean that they think that Asians are devious and conniving profit-seeking weasels who will rip you off


How the hell is this not racism, fucktard?

Because all Ferengi follow the Rules of Acquisition. If an entire race followed 1930's gangster culture (which by the way exists in ST), warning them about the entire race is not racism. Don't blame me, blame the writers for constructing the Ferengi this way.

Brian

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The only plausible explanation to the above is to not possibly offend any part of the fan-base. Another is, by quoting Shakespeare and the classics to include musical taste is to make them look SMART.

Actually, it really is so that the show doesn't come off as dated. That's exactly why everything they're interested in doesn't go beyond the 1950s at the latest, besides the random trivialty.

[Tommy J]

The only plausible explanation to the above is to not possibly offend any part of the fan-base. Another is, by quoting Shakespeare and the classics to include musical taste is to make them look SMART.

Actually, it really is so that the show doesn't come off as dated. That's exactly why everything they're interested in doesn't go beyond the 1950s at the latest, besides the random trivialty.

Actually that makes perfect sense now that I think about it. Someone could dust off their DVD's hand it to their son or daughter to start fresh and in so choosing white-washed pop culture as well as timeless historical literature and music, the background culture is still relevant to the viewer.

Where as if they had choosen popular music today that may or may not be liked 20 years from now, would have dated the background stories.

I for one cringe anytime a show from the 1970's comes on and I see disco music and clogs. I cannot get past the 'culture' (most of the time) into the plot. A great example of this is Buck Rogers that was done in the early 80's filled with all of the music and styles.

Now that you've pointed this out, they get a break on this issue in my book.

[Junghalli]

Yet life-sustaining planets can be located in strategically viable sectors of the galaxy. Say for example, the kind of 'leap frog' military tactics prevalent in ST style warfare. One planet can allow access to multiple angles of approach in enemy hands, which was covered in certain episodes. ("The Defector" in TNG, some of the Klingon episodes in TOS)

Well, in that case the Prime Directive shouldn't apply, since if we don't establish a presence on the planet the Klingons/Romulans/Talarians will conquer it. In fact, at least in the TOS era that is exactly the case (as we saw in Errand of Mercy, the ep with the Organians).

There are other limitations to warp drive than simply 'distance covered'. Starships and warfleets need a string of logistics bases set up all throughout the galaxy, in order to maintain combat effectiveness.

Yes, but remember probably only ten inhabitable planets out of a thousand will have indigenous sapient life. Most of the time it would be only a minor inconvenience to arrange your supply lines so they avoid any of those ten planets. Unless one is strategically located, in which case see above.

What I would do is have the survey ship take a look at the planet from orbit, and if they see signs of primitive sapient life they don't land and chart the system as a no-fly zone.

Why? These primitives have a culture that is alien from yours, but that doesn't mean some kind of relationship cannot be extended. Nothing says that the Federation explorers have to enslave them, there is undoubtledly a median between 'non interference' and 'exploitation'.

IMHO the best thing to do would be to stay away and allow these species to develop on their own. If you don't believe me just look at Earth today. The most prosperous nations are in North America and Europe, not Africa and Asia. It's not like we'll really be loosing anything anyway. What could a bronze age culture possibly offer to an interstellar civilization, aside from another habitable planet to colonize and maybe some interesting pottery?

[Junghalli]

Sex is a very good explaination of how the Federation holds together, particularly because your hypothesis is negative and suggests the Federation would fall apart, which it hasn't.

What makes you think the Federation isn't falling apart?
Someone already observed this, but the Fed seems to be like a hospital blown up to the size of an empire. It's neat, clean, antiseptic, and altogether an incredibly dreary place. One gets the horrible feeling that if you walked around in any city on a Fed planet the streets would be spotless and all the buildings would look the same.
Does that sound like a healthy society to you?

[Mayabird]

The obvious answer to this whole question is the 'no-fun' answer.

The writers already saddled with trying to maintain canon and continuity with other series, trying to create realistic graphics and sets, and trying to have some 'quasi-science' didn't have the time, $$$, or energy to create another facet of this pseudo future.

Thus, they borrow from our real world past. My question though is why not a more diverse part of our musical and literary history then Shakespeare, Melville, and 1950's Lounge Music?

The only plausible explanation to the above is to not possibly offend any part of the fan-base. Another is, by quoting Shakespeare and the classics to include musical taste is to make them look SMART.

I think it would have been kinda of kewl however if Riker had liked the Beatles or Data had liked Techno Music or something. Guess that was too risqué for Star Trek.

It wouldn't take that much effort or time to create their own pop culture. For instance, I forget the name of the TNG episode with the wargame, but in it there was the game "Strategema." We don't know the rules or what's going on (aside from "they're wiggling their fingers and some little pixels are moving around). However, it's obvious that they know what's going on and how to play. The writers don't even have to make up rules or anything; the audience can just accept that they're playing a game that we haven't invented yet; it'd be like someone from the 19th century watching me play Super Mario Bros. for a moment. I liked that. Why couldn't they do more of that kind of stuff? Someone going to the holodeck could mention going to act a part of a "classic" novel from 2250. ("I'm off to cavort with Lieuwen." "Ooh, you like Hanagud's novels, too? Ever read The Snowy Summer Fields?" "Never got around to it.") See? Easy. You never have to mention the books/stories/people ever again. Just little throwaway comments that the audience can understand is "in-universe" inside knowledge so we know there's stuff going on in the outside world. But this is just me being whiny.

[Tommy J]

The obvious answer to this whole question is the 'no-fun' answer.

The writers already saddled with trying to maintain canon and continuity with other series, trying to create realistic graphics and sets, and trying to have some 'quasi-science' didn't have the time, $$$, or energy to create another facet of this pseudo future.

Thus, they borrow from our real world past. My question though is why not a more diverse part of our musical and literary history then Shakespeare, Melville, and 1950's Lounge Music?

The only plausible explanation to the above is to not possibly offend any part of the fan-base. Another is, by quoting Shakespeare and the classics to include musical taste is to make them look SMART.

I think it would have been kinda of kewl however if Riker had liked the Beatles or Data had liked Techno Music or something. Guess that was too risqué for Star Trek.

It wouldn't take that much effort or time to create their own pop culture. For instance, I forget the name of the TNG episode with the wargame, but in it there was the game "Strategema." We don't know the rules or what's going on (aside from "they're wiggling their fingers and some little pixels are moving around). However, it's obvious that they know what's going on and how to play. The writers don't even have to make up rules or anything; the audience can just accept that they're playing a game that we haven't invented yet; it'd be like someone from the 19th century watching me play Super Mario Bros. for a moment. I liked that. Why couldn't they do more of that kind of stuff? Someone going to the holodeck could mention going to act a part of a "classic" novel from 2250. ("I'm off to cavort with Lieuwen." "Ooh, you like Hanagud's novels, too? Ever read The Snowy Summer Fields?" "Never got around to it.") See? Easy. You never have to mention the books/stories/people ever again. Just little throwaway comments that the audience can understand is "in-universe" inside knowledge so we know there's stuff going on in the outside world. But this is just me being whiny.

Voyager did a better job creating 24th Century culture. For example Namoey Wildman had her holo-character -- I forget his name.

They of course had all of their holo-Adventures just like in Next Gen but it seemed to be less 'classical' focused.

Janeway and 7 of 9 would play that game kinda like Racquet Ball.

[Prozac the Robert]

My own little theory that I've just made up is that there is simply too much modern stuff in the federation for many people to share an interest in.

Imagine if you could get any book, film, or music that has ever been writen for free off the internet. (Probably not too much of a stretch of the imagination for some of us ). But not only can you get the bestsellers, you also get fanfiction. And all amature attempts at a first novel as well. And imagine you could just order a computer to create a new 3d computer game for you to play whenever you liked.

In the federation, most of this stuff will be free. And most of the good ideas may well have already been done, so the vast amounts of rubbish being produced may all start to seem boring and derivative. And not only do they have this stuff, they also have another few hundred years of older things.

So you have a few options to find something to read; You could form groups with similar interests dedicated to sorting the wheat form the chaff, but this is probably means that if you don't get the same group's newsletter as a friend then you won't even have heard of the books he has read from there. You can turn to the past so that the only available books are the ones that were worth saving, or you can create your own entertainment.

[NRS Guardian]

I have this hilarious image in my head of Captain Kirk with a lot of jewels and gold chains doing gansta rap.

That reminds me of the episode of Futurama with the cast of TOS in it where they have Shatner sing/speak the words to Eminim's "I'm the real Slim Shady".

[Slartibartfast]

The only plausible explanation to the above is to not possibly offend any part of the fan-base. Another is, by quoting Shakespeare and the classics to include musical taste is to make them look SMART.

Actually, it really is so that the show doesn't come off as dated. That's exactly why everything they're interested in doesn't go beyond the 1950s at the latest, besides the random trivialty.

Actually that makes perfect sense now that I think about it. Someone could dust off their DVD's hand it to their son or daughter to start fresh and in so choosing white-washed pop culture as well as timeless historical literature and music, the background culture is still relevant to the viewer.

Where as if they had choosen popular music today that may or may not be liked 20 years from now, would have dated the background stories.

I for one cringe anytime a show from the 1970's comes on and I see disco music and clogs. I cannot get past the 'culture' (most of the time) into the plot. A great example of this is Buck Rogers that was done in the early 80's filled with all of the music and styles.

Now that you've pointed this out, they get a break on this issue in my book.

Buck Rogers *cough*discoskating*cough*

[brianeyci]

I would like to retract my statement that we don't know the daily life of a Federation citizen. Actually, we do. Or at least, a citizen on Earth, since citizens not on Earth are likely to have a very different lifestyle than humans. There was a Voyager episode where the Doctor was simulating a family life. Later on, B'Elanna changed the simulation so that it would accurately reflect personalities and the reality of daily family life. Now why would B'Elanna not change the surrounding settings if they were unrealistic? Therefore we can suppose that that setting depicted is the average daily life of a mid-status Earth citizen (or well-off Earth citizen depending on whether you think that a Diplomat's aid and Doctor should have a better life than other Earth citizens. But since the Earth is supposedly communist, citizens are supposed to be equal in terms of material wealth).

I will be posting pictures of this when I have more time, but this scene definitely does not resemble a "hospital" IIRC.

And one more thing. This "hospital" hypothesis is bullshit. Of course Starfleet ships and starbases would be spartan. That is what a military organization is likely to do! We have to take non-Starfleet or civilian quarters. The Doctor's holographic home is one example.

And we hear the Doctor's son listen to some sort of Klingon rock music. Even if culture does not exist on Earth, it definitely exists in the Federation in the form of other species' culture. Klingons are not part of the Fed, but others like Vulcans are, and Vulcans definitely have their own culture. The answer is probably that Earth doesn't have its own pop culture, but imports a lot of it... if teenagers are listening to Klingon rock music, what else must there be out there?

Any theory for Federation must account for how the Federation survives for hundreds of years into the 29th Century. The default is that the Federation is stable, and if you want to claim that they destabalize over time or get stronger, the burden of proof is on you. The 29th Century Feds are powerful enough to operate a timeship that patrols the timeline for inconsistencies, and have advanced enough time travel to actually affect real change in the timeline, which suggests the Fed is not deteriorating. A theory that the Federation is easily splintered or fractured is less reasonable than one that maintains the status quo or slowly expands the Federation (given that the Federation incorporates Klingons later).

I submit the holodeck hypothesis. There is also another possibility. Think of how much academic qualifications one needs to succeed now. If the training and knowledge required to be a functioning member of society is intense, ordinary citizens may have no time at all to worry about politics because they are constantly learning and training. If all the jobs out there involve technical skills, training and academic qualifications must be high for ordinary citizens to do well in the Fed. Note I am not commenting on the actual quality of the education, just noting that education and certificates may be immensely important. This is supported by Kirk and McCoy's comment of how a fighter pilot of the 20th Century would be "useless" in their society, and how retraining would be an incredible burden. Think about human society, and how it has evolved from requiring barely being able to read and write to requiring a post-secondary education. The logical next step would be continual lifetime education, and in the Fed where all the jobs are probably technical in nature, this may take up a lot of time.

Brian

[brianeyci]

And one more thing. Anybody who thinks the holodeck hypothesis is a load of shit better think for a moment. What if you had the power to create a world, any world? What if this world was so immersive, so real, that you couldn't tell the difference? What if you had complete control of the variables of this world?

The holodeck must be an addictive past-time indeed. It is a good explaination how the Federation keeps the sheep in line.

Of course, not everybody likes fucking around in a world that isn't real. The 0.1% that don't join Starfleet.

Brian

[brianeyci]

But that's where you're wrong: not all Ferengi follow the Rules of Acquisition. Nog doesn't, Rom doesn't, many of Quark's disgrunteled employees have issues with them. And surely there are more. What about a Ferengi who was born and raised by Breen (or whatever else, I just felt like mentioning the Breen)? Would he be a greedy liar? Probably not. Sure, in Trek race and culture are very closly tied, but that doesn't change the fact that racism is still racism.

Fine, Fed's policy against associating with Ferengi is racist. However, implementation of this policy may be lukewarm, or not taken seriously by Academy cadets in a situation with hundreds of other species. How seriously would you take a teacher telling you to avoid Asians "because they're Asian" if there were dozens of other cultures around you? Immersiveness breeds tolerance and understanding. Sisko definitely had no problems with Nog being around Jake because he was Ferengi.

Brian