The Q Revisited.

[Batman]

So this not an energy being?.

1. As it is obviously not moving at c, it CAN'T be.
2. As for Trek's warped definition of energy being, since we know Q is a known drama queen who's to say this is what he really looks like?
3. 'Plato's Stepchildren'. Everybody affected ingested either the plant or the extract. Last time I checked, Riker didn't eat a Continuum Powers bar, didn't drink Continuum Powers cola, nor did so much as breathe Continuum Powers air. By what medium were those powers transferred, pray tell?
*Slight nitpick:Which of the examples Robert mentioned are actually confirmed innate powers? Kes and John Doe are a given, but how about the others? The only thing we ever saw Uxbridge do was create that illusionary spaceship, and all we have the HOW AND his other capabilities is his word. What about the rest?

[Robert Walper]

Time for bed. I'll just concede the arguement.

[brianeyci]

And how does the statement "he is omnipotent" go against him being omnipotent because of his technology. You are reading into it "He is omnipotent becauseof his magic." All they state is that he is omnipotent - which by the way has been proven quite untrue from other examples but Starfleet's competence is not the topic of this thread. Once again no evidence as to why.

It is not hard evidence that the Q do not use technology, but it is evidence that the Q's feats cannot be explained by a simple upscaling of Federation technology, and is likely at least a generation ahead of their current technology. Which is more evidence against the hypothesis "we've seen other technology do this before..."

To paraphrase the Merovingian: "You come to me without a why. Without reason."

I don't claim that it is impossible for the Q to use technology to accomplish their feats. I am saying that it is premature to conclude either way. Even if it is possible, or even reasonable for the Q to use technology, it does not mean that they do use technology. For example, if I saw x + y = 1 and wrote down (x = -2 y = +3) as an answer, the answer is right, but I would get the question wrong because the real answer is that there are an infinite number of solutions, or that we don't have any constraints on x and y. It is premature to talk about Q using technology, because we don't have definite proof of them using technology for all of their feats.

Brian

[Stofsk]

So here's one for the Pro-Magic side who seem to be clustering here and not the other thread(Probably because of the number of vet debators employing logic and reason there...).

Parsimony disagrees with you.

Innate powers not shown before, are by definition Unexplained Unknowns.

Technology that is identical to Federation Tech except in scope(A Transporter that can move starships, time travel, replicators, holodecks, et cetera, ad naeseum, ad infinium) is not Unexplained or Unknown. It is a perfectly legitimate explanation using an established capability.

Ergo, Parsimony employed logically selects the technology theory as superior. Given there is precisely zero evidence it's really magic, I think this sums up the whole thing nicely. Not that logical conclusions tend to stop threads like this.

It doesn't, I've pointed this out a half dozen times throughout this thread and the one in the HoS. I tried making the Occam's Razor argument, yet keep getting ignored.

The point Brian, is we're trying to rationalise the events we see by extrapolating ideas to take them into account. We see Q push the E-D through some kind of Warp, so we say "He must have pushed them through a transwarp conduit." What we don't say is "He just did it" because as I've stated repeatedly, that option says nothing; it's not an argument.

When we see him flash on and off the bridge, we say he's using a transporter. When he flashed into and out of a Starfleet uniform and into some other costume, he's using a combination of transporter and replicator. When he does it with impunity, he's somehow jamming the sensors of the Enterprise. No one ever knows when Q is going to jump in. (except for Guinan) What we don't say is he's using magic. We could say he's using magic TECH, but not magic ITSELF.

There are cries for us to provide evidence; the evidence is there, in the abilities he manifests. Brian wants a bright pink neon sign burning over every hidden device Q uses; this is unreasonable. This argument is one based on parsimony, wherein we try to rationalise observed onscreen phenomena with some kind of, ANY kind of, reason. In response, all you can reply with is "Well, we don't know for sure so I think it's hasty to make premature conclusions." Why, exactly? Where's the countertheory?

[Stofsk]

Oh Jon, when Q says "Humans shouldn't be in the DQ for another 100 years!" isn't proof he's been to the future. Since the VOY crew are there a 100 years before he said anyone would, it shows that he doesn't actually know. When Q shows Picard life on earth billions of years ago, why doesn't Picard fall to the ground, his lungs burning because he breathed sulphur? Why can he look at the pond, and see no life develop, because of the anomaly... how can he do this when he should be DEAD?

When Quinn takes them back to the beginning of the universe, there's no way they could even be alive. How are they going back in time before time began? When Quinn shrinks them down to atomic size so that they get bombarded with protons, how come they don't die when they're too small to maintain cohesion? Or breath? The Christmas tree ornament... all three of these btw are seen through the viewscreen. Think about that for a moment.

[brianeyci]

So here's one for the Pro-Magic side who seem to be clustering here and not the other thread(Probably because of the number of vet debators employing logic and reason there...).

I didn't create this thread to hide from the other thread. I didn't want to post in a hosed thread, and I wanted to discuss outside the context of a vs to see if the pro-technology side was consistent.

Parsimony disagrees with you.

Innate powers not shown before, are by definition Unexplained Unknowns.

Technology that is identical to Federation Tech except in scope(A Transporter that can move starships, time travel, replicators, holodecks, et cetera, ad naeseum, ad infinium) is not Unexplained or Unknown. It is a perfectly legitimate explanation using an established capability.

Fine. But there is a difference between explaining something through technology, and explaining something through technology and saying that it was all "faked". I have nothing against the technology argument. I disagree with the people who say Q "must" have created holograms of Woodstock guy, Newton and Riker. Why couldn't Q have actually teleported them using technology or a transporter from the past or wherever, and then mindwiped them? The technology argument is used a lot to dismiss Q's feats as trickery or sham, and I don't see why technology necessarily has to dismiss all of Q's feats as fake.

Ergo, Parsimony employed logically selects the technology theory as superior. Given there is precisely zero evidence it's really magic, I think this sums up the whole thing nicely. Not that logical conclusions tend to stop threads like this.

Fine, the technology theory is superior. But that does not mean that technology can't be responsible for Q actually transporting someone through time, and mind wiping them rather than create holograms. Especially since there was no reason for Quinn to not point out the forgery since he was seeking asylum with Janeway. I don't care whether or not Q uses technology, but it seems that people equate technology to "forgery" or "fake". As the pro-technology side likes to point out, it is a question of degree. Instantly teleporting someone through time and mind wiping them is possible if we scale up technology to the level of the 29th Century Feds for example, who use a temporal transporter. I don't see why it necessarily has to be a hologram just because "the theory is simpler". The pro-hologram proponents keep ignoring evidence like Quinn having no reason to lie, and Q having no reason to lie to Janeway when he said he could instantly teleport Voyager to the AQ as Rogue 9 put it.

Brian

[brianeyci]

There are cries for us to provide evidence; the evidence is there, in the abilities he manifests. Brian wants a bright pink neon sign burning over every hidden device Q uses; this is unreasonable. This argument is one based on parsimony, wherein we try to rationalise observed onscreen phenomena with some kind of, ANY kind of, reason. In response, all you can reply with is "Well, we don't know for sure so I think it's hasty to make premature conclusions." Why, exactly? Where's the countertheory?

Fine, there is no counter theory. But rationalizing all of Q's feats as technology, and rationalizing them as fake are a different matter. I guess the reason why I was so against the technology argument was because you kept pointing out that Q could have used holograms and such. Now I realize that the technology argument can be divorced from the "faked" argument. Quinn could have pointed out that Q was actually lying, and gained points with Janeway in her decision to grant Quinn asylum. Also Q had no reason, and indeed it was against his interest to lie to Janeway about teleporting Voyager home as Rogue 9 pointed out. The technology argument may be valid, but does not necessarily dismiss the Q's feats as faked.

Brian

[SirNitram]

So here's one for the Pro-Magic side who seem to be clustering here and not the other thread(Probably because of the number of vet debators employing logic and reason there...).

I didn't create this thread to hide from the other thread. I didn't want to post in a hosed thread, and I wanted to discuss outside the context of a vs to see if the pro-technology side was consistent.

Feel free to try and sell this line to someone who'll beleive it. I am well known for my pessimistic and suspicious nature, and behavior like this merely reinforces it.

Parsimony disagrees with you.

Innate powers not shown before, are by definition Unexplained Unknowns.

Technology that is identical to Federation Tech except in scope(A Transporter that can move starships, time travel, replicators, holodecks, et cetera, ad naeseum, ad infinium) is not Unexplained or Unknown. It is a perfectly legitimate explanation using an established capability.

Fine. But there is a difference between explaining something through technology, and explaining something through technology and saying that it was all "faked". I have nothing against the technology argument. I disagree with the people who say Q "must" have created holograms of Woodstock guy, Newton and Riker. Why couldn't Q have actually teleported them using technology or a transporter from the past or wherever, and then mindwiped them? The technology argument is used a lot to dismiss Q's feats as trickery or sham, and I don't see why technology necessarily has to dismiss all of Q's feats as fake.

It doesn't. That's a strawman you made up.

Now, logic dictates that quite a few of Q's feats were shams, magic or tech. You can't go to a place before the Big Bang, and the Robin Hood stuff was clearly illusionary.

Ergo, Parsimony employed logically selects the technology theory as superior. Given there is precisely zero evidence it's really magic, I think this sums up the whole thing nicely. Not that logical conclusions tend to stop threads like this.

Fine, the technology theory is superior. But that does not mean that technology can't be responsible for Q actually transporting someone through time, and mind wiping them rather than create holograms. Especially since there was no reason for Quinn to not point out the forgery since he was seeking asylum with Janeway. I don't care whether or not Q uses technology, but it seems that people equate technology to "forgery" or "fake". As the pro-technology side likes to point out, it is a question of degree. Instantly teleporting someone through time and mind wiping them is possible if we scale up technology to the level of the 29th Century Feds for example, who use a temporal transporter. I don't see why it necessarily has to be a hologram just because "the theory is simpler". The pro-hologram proponents keep ignoring evidence like Quinn having no reason to lie, and Q having no reason to lie to Janeway when he said he could instantly teleport Voyager to the AQ as Rogue 9 put it.

Brian

Your strawman is noted.. And ignored.

[Eframepilot]

Sorry about the "trolling bullshit" earlier. I participated in this argument before in the (in)famous Han Solo and Chewbacca vs. Q thread and was venting. But the argument seems to have reached a similar place to where I conceeded (or quit in despair), so I'll try (and most likely fail) again.

Parsimony is a great principle, but is it really proper to apply it here? Since we really DO have evidence for humans being granted "magical powers" (the Thasians giving Charlie X his abilities, Wesley Crusher, and Gary Mitchell), "magical powers" are a defined entity in the Star Trek universe, and explaining a new phenomenon with "magical powers" should not violate parsimony as long as "magical powers" does appear to best fit the available evidence.

And if you believe that "magical powers" are always the last resort and that we should try to rationalize away all superbeings as technology-based, then consider this. Fuck suspension of disbelief. Just fuck it! The writers intend the Q to have near-omnipotent inherent powers. 99.99% of the viewers believe that the Q have near-omnipotent inherent powers. Star Trek is not real, it's chock full of logical inconsistencies and we should sometimes just accept the obvious intention instead of going through all kinds of logical contortions to "prove" that a fictional being's fictional superpowers are more fictional than commonly believed or intended by the creators. Are the Q's powers really that much more distasteful than the scientifically ludicrous device of the transporter? Why can't we accept the Q as they are presented as we accept the warp drive, the Universal Translator, the sounds in space, the holodeck not causing massive social problems and all the other implausible bullshit in Trek (and other science fiction)? Frankly, if the method of rational analysis used here yields results wildly divergent from the creators' blatant intentions, we should consider altering our method.

Damn, that argument certainly isn't going to go over well. And I probably won't get any serious responses. But those are my final opinions on this rather silly subject, so take whatever you want from this last desperate cry for ... something or other.

[brianeyci]

Feel free to try and sell this line to someone who'll beleive it. I am well known for my pessimistic and suspicious nature, and behavior like this merely reinforces it.

Believe it or not, I have not shyed away from debating DW (and losing) before, so why would I now. I really did want to see whether the technology argument was just a farce for a vs so people can say "oh, perhaps we can defeat Q's technology".

It doesn't. That's a strawman you made up.

I am not saying you said that. Stofsk specifically stated that the time travelling in the Quinn episode was somehow fake and holographic, linked to the technology argument. I wasn't smart enough to realize then that the technology argument is isolated from the faking argument, which I realize now.

Now, logic dictates that quite a few of Q's feats were shams, magic or tech. You can't go to a place before the Big Bang, and the Robin Hood stuff was clearly illusionary.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that Q didn't really transport Riker, Woodstock guy and Newton to the future to talk with them, especially when Quinn could have called Q out on his lie and gained points with Janeway for his asylum case.

Your strawman is noted.. And ignored.

I'm not saying that you said that, I was debating Stofsk, and he has been claiming holograms all the time.

Brian

[Jon]

Oh Jon, when Q says "Humans shouldn't be in the DQ for another 100 years!" isn't proof he's been to the future. Since the VOY crew are there a 100 years before he said anyone would, it shows that he doesn't actually know. When Q shows Picard life on earth billions of years ago, why doesn't Picard fall to the ground, his lungs burning because he breathed sulphur? Why can he look at the pond, and see no life develop, because of the anomaly... how can he do this when he should be DEAD?

Well, from what we see on screen, he doesn't indeed- so either Q is keeping him alive/preventing his lungs from burning or indeed it is a simulation- we don't know if it is either, but I agree- if I had to choose magical powers over holographics...

as for the 'humans shouldnt be here for another 100 years' quote- good point, but again if we accept they are not omnipotent, but almost (which might be like, for example, the difference between 99.9% lightspeed and c itself- a big/infinite difference in real space, but 99% still being high) he might not 'know everything' even if he has the ability to do almost anything... grasping at straws I admit so I won't argue that, just a thought.

When Quinn takes them back to the beginning of the universe, there's no way they could even be alive. How are they going back in time before time began? When Quinn shrinks them down to atomic size so that they get bombarded with protons, how come they don't die when they're too small to maintain cohesion? Or breath? The Christmas tree ornament... all three of these btw are seen through the viewscreen. Think about that for a moment.

Aye, but the reason I thought that might be different to Q De Lancie and his tricks is that it was Quinn, why would he be faking it/lying when he really is trying to get away from the continuum/wants to die?

[SirNitram]

Feel free to try and sell this line to someone who'll beleive it. I am well known for my pessimistic and suspicious nature, and behavior like this merely reinforces it.

Believe it or not, I have not shyed away from debating DW (and losing) before, so why would I now. I really did want to see whether the technology argument was just a farce for a vs so people can say "oh, perhaps we can defeat Q's technology".

A laughable, unbeleivable excuse.

It doesn't. That's a strawman you made up.

I am not saying you said that. Stofsk specifically stated that the time travelling in the Quinn episode was somehow fake and holographic, linked to the technology argument. I wasn't smart enough to realize then that the technology argument is isolated from the faking argument, which I realize now.

I'm sorry, is the concept of 'Innate powers can be limited too' too much for Trekkies these days? :rolleyes: Too much to consider that the powers of illusion are less far-reaching than the powers of time travel?

Now, logic dictates that quite a few of Q's feats were shams, magic or tech. You can't go to a place before the Big Bang, and the Robin Hood stuff was clearly illusionary.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that Q didn't really transport Riker, Woodstock guy and Newton to the future to talk with them, especially when Quinn could have called Q out on his lie and gained points with Janeway for his asylum case.

Except that we've already seen historical figures played by holodeck effects, so I don't see much use to make this different...

Your strawman is noted.. And ignored.

I'm not saying that you said that, I was debating Stofsk, and he has been claiming holograms all the time.

Brian

And they could have easily been magical illusions. Linking the two arguments is a strawman.

[brianeyci]

A laughable, unbeleivable excuse.

Not my fault you're an old fart and too pessimistic . Read the beginning of the other thread, when I went into details Stofsk replied with "but the op says...", so I created another thread without the stupid op, I didn't want to defend the stupid notion that Q would get involved in a war with the Feds and the Imps (which Stofsk was accusing me of doing), so why not create a thread with no vs to discuss.

I'm sorry, is the concept of 'Innate powers can be limited too' too much for Trekkies these days? :rolleyes: Too much to consider that the powers of illusion are less far-reaching than the powers of time travel?

Who said that innate powers can't be limited. In the other thread, we were trying to find limits for powers despite the conclusion not being reached for innate.

Except that we've already seen historical figures played by holodeck effects, so I don't see much use to make this different...

Except Quinn could have exposed Q and gotten Janeway on her side on the asylum case, which Quinn wanted so he could commit suicide.

And they could have easily been magical illusions. Linking the two arguments is a strawman.

Too bad, Stofsk linked the magical illusions with technology not me. And no, you only consider the hard evidence, not the character evidence like "Why would Quinn keep up the charade with Q if Quinn wanted to kill himself?" There is no good reason, and you'd have to throw the entire episode out the door. In the end, Quinn does kill himself after being granted asylum, or do you dispute that as well.

This "Q has the powers to make illusions, so everything is an illusion" is stupid. Earth outside Voyager's window is probably an illusion, but time travelling Riker, Woodstock guy and Newton is probably not or Quinn would have exposed the farce to strengthen his asylum case.

Saying everything is an illusion and dismissing Q's feats is why I didn't buy into the technology argument originally, now I realize that the technology argument can be isolated from the "faking" argument. For example, should we say that since Palpatine has the power to convince minds to forget the construction of an SSD (quote brought up by someone else in another thread), DS2 wasn't at the final battle in ROTJ? Please.

Brian

[SirNitram]

A laughable, unbeleivable excuse.

Not my fault you're an old fart and too pessimistic . Read the beginning of the other thread, when I went into details Stofsk replied with "but the op says...", so I created another thread without the stupid op, I didn't want to defend the stupid notion that Q would get involved in a war with the Feds and the Imps (which Stofsk was accusing me of doing), so why not create a thread with no vs to discuss.

I'm sorry, is the simple idea of 'No duplicate threads' too much for you? That is a rule, you know.

I'm sorry, is the concept of 'Innate powers can be limited too' too much for Trekkies these days? :rolleyes: Too much to consider that the powers of illusion are less far-reaching than the powers of time travel?

Who said that innate powers can't be limited. In the other thread, we were trying to find limits for powers despite the conclusion not being reached for innate.

You were, by intrisincly linking the Technology argument with the Sham argument.

Except that we've already seen historical figures played by holodeck effects, so I don't see much use to make this different...

Except Quinn could have exposed Q and gotten Janeway on her side on the asylum case, which Quinn wanted so he could commit suicide.

This assumes that computer reprensetations of figures are not considered useful in Q politics. Simply saying 'They're fakes' makes sense.. To us. However, I can resolve it easily enough: The Q witnessed all three, and their machines recorded the subjects. They can thus draw on these replications at any time.

And they could have easily been magical illusions. Linking the two arguments is a strawman.

Too bad, Stofsk linked the magical illusions with technology not me. And no, you only consider the hard evidence, not the character evidence like "Why would Quinn keep up the charade with Q if Quinn wanted to kill himself?" There is no good reason, and you'd have to throw the entire episode out the door. In the end, Quinn does kill himself after being granted asylum, or do you dispute that as well.

Unless, as stated above, these holograms are considered usable by being accurate representations.(Essentially, allowing a defendant to use recorded testimony)

This "Q has the powers to make illusions, so everything is an illusion" is stupid. Earth outside Voyager's window is probably an illusion, but time travelling Riker, Woodstock guy and Newton is probably not or Quinn would have exposed the farce to strengthen his asylum case.

Again, I present an entirely feasible alternative that does not require Riker and Newton being mind-wiped willy nilly.

Saying everything is an illusion and dismissing Q's feats is why I didn't buy into the technology argument originally, now I realize that the technology argument can be isolated from the "faking" argument. For example, should we say that since Palpatine has the power to convince minds to forget the construction of an SSD (quote brought up by someone else in another thread), DS2 wasn't at the final battle in ROTJ? Please.

Brian

So drop the goddamn strawman of linking the two together.

[brianeyci]

I'm sorry, is the simple idea of 'No duplicate threads' too much for you? That is a rule, you know.

No mod approached me when the initial op was posted, and several mods have debated in this thread. So I assumed there was no problem. It is not a duplicate thread, because it is not discussing in terms of a vs. I left the other thread around the same time BoredShirtless decided to debate the innate vs technology argument. Its not my fault that the other thread went that way as well, instead of following its op which was shoved down my throat which is why I created a new thread independent of the op.

You were, by intrisincly linking the Technology argument with the Sham argument.

Fine.

This assumes that computer reprensetations of figures are not considered useful in Q politics. Simply saying 'They're fakes' makes sense.. To us. However, I can resolve it easily enough: The Q witnessed all three, and their machines recorded the subjects. They can thus draw on these replications at any time.

Fine. So Quinn did actually travel back in time and altered history without creating an alternate universe. And recorded testimony is different that what happened, because Q actually asked the subjects questions. As well, Quinn by Federation law had a right to have Tuvok cross-examine the subjects. If the subjects were mere recordings and not the real thing or perfect copies, Quinn would have cried foul and said it was a load of shit.

If the Q can make perfect copies of Riker, Woodstock guy, and Newton, then fine, that is how the recorded argument holds up. Otherwise, Quinn would have exposed the people as frauds and not the real thing which he was entitled to cross-examine.

Unless, as stated above, these holograms are considered usable by being accurate representations.(Essentially, allowing a defendant to use recorded testimony)

Your hypothesis allows that Quinn can time travel and affect the past without creating an alternate timeline, which is what I was setting out to prove. Also, Quinn had a right to cross examine live witnesses, and would have cried foul if they were just recordings and not the real thing or perfect copies.

Again, I present an entirely feasible alternative that does not require Riker and Newton being mind-wiped willy nilly.

Ignoring the fact that Quinn had a right to cross-examine his witnesses (or get Tuvok to do it for him). He could have cried foul, and said they were mere recordings. And, this already proves my point anyway, that the Q can time travel and affect the past without creating an alternate timeline, so I am content to concede the recording point to you.

So drop the goddamn strawman of linking the two together.

Fine.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Your hypothesis allows that Quinn can time travel and affect the past without creating an alternate timeline, which is what I was setting out to prove. Also, Quinn had a right to cross examine live witnesses, and would have cried foul if they were just recordings and not the real thing or perfect copies.

No it doesn't, you fucking liar. All it allows is that the Q have recorded individuals throughout time.

[brianeyci]

Your hypothesis allows that Quinn can time travel and affect the past without creating an alternate timeline, which is what I was setting out to prove. Also, Quinn had a right to cross examine live witnesses, and would have cried foul if they were just recordings and not the real thing or perfect copies.

No it doesn't, you fucking liar. All it allows is that the Q have recorded individuals throughout time.

You're wrong.

Q: Your Captain Honour, I am here to argue for the majesty of life. What it means to us to be alive. A Q's life takes him to all corners of the universe. This Q's life has touched and affected many, many others, including some on your own homeworld. With your permission, I would like to call some of those people whose lives have been changed by this Q.
JANEWAY: You want to bring people here from Earth?
Q: I promise you it won't impact the timeline, and no one will remember ever having being here after I send them back.
JANEWAY: This is most unusual. Do you have any objection, Mister Tuvok?
TUVOK: I am as curious as you are, Captain.
JANEWAY: Very well. Proceed.

So why wouldn't have Quinn called Q on his bluff, called him a Liar, and then denounced him to Captain Janeway and gotten points for his asylum case?

What do you mean by "record"? Do you mean a static recording, or do you mean an interactive recording? Since Q asked Riker and Co. questions, it had to be an interactive recording. Now why would Quinn not immediately jump in and say, "Q, these aren't the real people, I have a right to cross-examine the witnesses" if the recordings were anything less than perfect duplicates or the actual people themselves?

Brian

[Eframepilot]

brianeyci, you're making a good effort but you're not going to win this argument. The side you're debating against believes that many of the Q's stunts are illusions of some sort and therefore none of their motives can be trusted. For instance, if you accept that the Big Bang, nanoscale and Christmas tree ornament scenes were illusions, then Quinn must somehow be in league with Q to pull one over the Voyager crew (and the viewers) because Quinn logically has no reason to hide in totally fake places and if he was, Q could point out that the hiding places were just illusions. So they are already "in league" as of that scene. So Quinn has no reason to call Q on his lie of illusory recordings of past people as witnesses as Quinn is already in on the whole scheme, whatever the hell it is. You could argue that the above scenes were not illusions but actual reality and the Q's incredible, physics-defying powers somehow made all the impossibilities possible, but the other side is not going to accept that at all. (I remember Darth Wong and others stating that those things were definitely illusions in the last debate and didn't feel like challenging it; from a realist perspective, it's an understandable position.)

[The Silence and I]

brianeyci, you're making a good effort but you're not going to win this argument. The side you're debating against believes that many of the Q's stunts are illusions of some sort and therefore none of their motives can be trusted. For instance, if you accept that the Big Bang, nanoscale and Christmas tree ornament scenes were illusions, then Quinn must somehow be in league with Q to pull one over the Voyager crew (and the viewers) because Quinn logically has no reason to hide in totally fake places and if he was, Q could point out that the hiding places were just illusions. So they are already "in league" as of that scene. So Quinn has no reason to call Q on his lie of illusory recordings of past people as witnesses as Quinn is already in on the whole scheme, whatever the hell it is. You could argue that the above scenes were not illusions but actual reality and the Q's incredible, physics-defying powers somehow made all the impossibilities possible, but the other side is not going to accept that at all. (I remember Darth Wong and others stating that those things were definitely illusions in the last debate and didn't feel like challenging it; from a realist perspective, it's an understandable position.)

All to realistic I fear. What bothers me is the rigid adherence to our set of rules concerning nature when deciding whether or not something is reasonable in Trek by the technology side. The simple, simple truth of the matter is our rules do not apply to beings of immense power in Startrek. They don't even apply to lesser beings of unusual power, or even to some exotic lifeforms.
Statements to the effect of: "That couldn't have happened so it must have been an illusion despite no indication of this by any character or setting or mood or theme on the show" annoys me. We are supposed to go along with certain things but if they fly in the face of our rules certain members of this board decide to make up another solution and parade it around as if it is the only literal truth there can be.

That might be so here, but over there Energy has substance, can travel at any velocity, take any form and generally has no relation to our understanding of energy. This is but one example but it is a fundemental one.
According to one who knows better, the Traveler:

TRAVELER
You do understand don't you that
thought is the basis of all
reality? The... "energy" of
thought, to put it in your terms,
is very powerful.

This is the underlying nature of Startrek's natural world: thought. The minds of living beings are the ultimate source of power if properly attuned. Technology can do many wonderous things but thought can achieve just as much if not more. The power of an individual's mind and understanding is the only theoretical limit to what can be accomplished. Laws can be bent, broken and remade, energy and thought can combine in complex patterns, thought is reality in Startrek. Those who realize this need no technology to do what they want. A simple and repeated theme in TNG. Once I've finished compiling all the examples I will post them (it will be long) but thought is the end all be all of power.

[SirNitram]

Your hypothesis allows that Quinn can time travel and affect the past without creating an alternate timeline, which is what I was setting out to prove. Also, Quinn had a right to cross examine live witnesses, and would have cried foul if they were just recordings and not the real thing or perfect copies.

No it doesn't, you fucking liar. All it allows is that the Q have recorded individuals throughout time.

You're wrong.<Snip Quote>

Conceded on this point.

What do you mean by "record"? Do you mean a static recording, or do you mean an interactive recording? Since Q asked Riker and Co. questions, it had to be an interactive recording. Now why would Quinn not immediately jump in and say, "Q, these aren't the real people, I have a right to cross-examine the witnesses" if the recordings were anything less than perfect duplicates or the actual people themselves?

Brian

Yes, the meaning was a full mental recording, one that can remember all that the living person did.

[Lord Zentei]

The time travel method is not unattainable in principle by Trek tech + Q FTL speed. Consider: the Feds possess transporter technology. The Voyager used time travel repeadedly. The Q have demonstrated ultra fast FTL. It would not be unreasonable to suppose that the Q can time travel and FTL to the Earth and beam up specific individuals, then wipe their memories and return them.

As to which is more likely, well... Q's bluff might have been called on if the individuals seen were not real.

Of course, I support the idea that Q use tech rather than inexplicable "innate powers" since that is the rational explanation for their abilities.

[Stofsk]

So why wouldn't have Quinn called Q on his bluff, called him a Liar, and then denounced him to Captain Janeway and gotten points for his asylum case?

Q could have brought them forward through time or used a holographical simulucra of the individuals in question, but either way, it doesn't matter to the technological theory, as in either case Q would need to have used some device to do what he did. And Quinn could have been playing along with Q all the time during the trial, because the simulucra are so perfect representations that it would make no functional difference in having them there or the 'real deal' so to speak.

Quinn's trial depended on taking Janeway to the Continuum (a direct stated simulation at any rate), so why should he complain by having these three individuals be brought forward by Q, if real OR fake? Janeway didn't give a shit if they were 'real' or fake, she thought it was just unusual (which it was, from a legal perspective - not that Janeway is a judicial official, but whatever). Tuvok was curious.

In any case, who give's a fuck? This is a remnant of the previous thread, which concerned itself with a bullshit versus scenario, which understandably deserved to be mocked.

[brianeyci]

So why wouldn't have Quinn called Q on his bluff, called him a Liar, and then denounced him to Captain Janeway and gotten points for his asylum case?

Q could have brought them forward through time or used a holographical simulucra of the individuals in question, but either way, it doesn't matter to the technological theory, as in either case Q would need to have used some device to do what he did. And Quinn could have been playing along with Q all the time during the trial, because the simulucra are so perfect representations that it would make no functional difference in having them there or the 'real deal' so to speak.

SirNitram already conceded the point, you want to keep arguing it?

Quinn would not have been playing along, because he wanted his Q powers stripped and he wanted to kill himself. Every little technicality and trick he would have brought up to defend himself. Hell, he even tried the obvious strawman of showing his own imprisonment, which was irrelevant to the case of Quinn living because if Quinn chose to live he wouldn't have gone
back to that asteroid.

Quinn's trial depended on taking Janeway to the Continuum (a direct stated simulation at any rate), so why should he complain by having these three individuals be brought forward by Q, if real OR fake? Janeway didn't give a shit if they were 'real' or fake, she thought it was just unusual (which it was, from a legal perspective - not that Janeway is a judicial official, but whatever). Tuvok was curious.

Who says Janeway didn't a shit whether they were real or fake? Quinn didn't bring it up. Since Janeway was expecting eyewitness testimony, if Quinn screamed "fraud!" it would have been points for him for his aslyum case, proving the er prosecution was using false testimony. He didn't.

In any case, who give's a fuck? This is a remnant of the previous thread, which concerned itself with a bullshit versus scenario, which understandably deserved to be mocked.

The point of bringing it up is to show that the technology argument is not in any way connected with the faking argument. I have conceded that the technology argument is superior, but are you still arguing that the event had to be faked because of technology? Like Zentei said, scaled up Fed technology can easily explain the transporting through time and mind wipe as possible. Rouge 9 already countered your point earlier about the instant teleportation to Earth being fake.

If you are not saying that everything necessarily has to be faked because of the technology argument, then we are in agreement and the debate is over Stofsk.

Brian

[Stofsk]

I said it didn't matter to the technological theory. As far as Quinn's deathwish is concerned it does nothing for the theory nor take away anything from it; as far as it goes it's a separate issue on the matter. There are other examples of Q using holographical simulucra before - putting Picard on a simulated primordial bedrock, the trips through the big bang, particle shower, and christmas tree, robin hood etc - so it's not like this one example trumps the 'smoke and mirrors' point, as Q has clearly demonstrated the ability to weave illusions for the crew to jump through.

Again, it's ancilliary to the main point, which is that he uses technology to accomplish these feats.

[brianeyci]

I said it didn't matter to the technological theory. As far as Quinn's deathwish is concerned it does nothing for the theory nor take away anything from it; as far as it goes it's a separate issue on the matter. There are other examples of Q using holographical simulucra before - putting Picard on a simulated primordial bedrock, the trips through the big bang, particle shower, and christmas tree, robin hood etc - so it's not like this one example trumps the 'smoke and mirrors' point, as Q has clearly demonstrated the ability to weave illusions for the crew to jump through.

Just because he can create illusions, it does not mean everything he does is an illusion. Especially if we're supposed to believe the Q's technology is generations ahead of the Feds, and the Feds can time travel and mind wipe. Like you mentioned, it is a matter of degree.

It's ancilliary to the main point, which is that he uses technology to accomplish these feats.

Agreed, as long as the technology argument is not used as a strawman to link technology with faking.

Also, its possible future Trek will elaborate more on Q. B&B rehash old ideas on Ent all the time, we might one day get a conclusive explaination.

Brian