The Q Revisited.

[brianeyci]

Evidence for that. And by that I mean other than your ass.

Janeway would only have known of Q through reading Voyager's database on Q, and Janeway called Q omnipotent so it is evidence that Starfleet classifies Q as omnipotent.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

If the innate powers are nonobservable, how will you test that theory?

Since our only evidence is observation, the question is meaningless, don't you think?

But here are my main qualms about the innate powers:
How are they transferred to outsiders?

Irrelevent. We don't know how warp drive(technology) works either. We can only quantify and analyse it's effects. Same with mental powers.

Does not giving them to outsiders go against the very definition of innate?

Vision is a innate human ability. We can give and take vision away from machines, a vastly different form of existence than our own. Does this refute vision as a innate human ability?

It adds another unknown force to the equation.

The technology explanation demands evidence of Q powers being dependent upon technology, since we know innate mental powers exist in several examples. And no, the Q's weapons does not consistute evidence their powers are dependent upon technology. Only that their powers can create it (assuming said weapons were technology, the Q routinely mention that human perception is altered in the Continuum).

There are others, but they are quite minor. If you can adequatily answer the above points, I will give your innate theory more thought.

Well, that's my best shot. *shrugs*

[Jon]

Maybe the word omnipotent is the closest thing in our available language to describe the Q *shrug* - after all, can anything actually be omnipotent? There are arguments like- omnipotents can do anything, which includes taking power from another omnipotent, but you can't take power from an omnipotent so there for omnipotence is impossible? ETC

[Stravo]

Evidence for that. And by that I mean other than your ass.

Janeway would only have known of Q through reading Voyager's database on Q, and Janeway called Q omnipotent so it is evidence that Starfleet classifies Q as omnipotent.

Brian

And how does the statement "he is omnipotent" go against him being omnipotent because of his technology. You are reading into it "He is omnipotent becauseof his magic." All they state is that he is omnipotent - which by the way has been proven quite untrue from other examples but Starfleet's competence is not the topic of this thread. Once again no evidence as to why.

To paraphrase the Merovingian: "You come to me without a why. Without reason."

[Robert Walper]

And greater mental abilities are impossible because...?

Funny that. The innate peopel want to ignore Appollo, Trelayne, Landru, the Devil woman (I really need to find out the episode name),

STTNG "Devil's Due". Woman was portraying "Ardra".

Bhaal (the Apple) But hold on. We have Kess. That means we can extrapolate the shit out of that but fuck you for trying to extrapolate the weightier evidence for tech.

And the tech people want to dismiss Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), The Dowd (STTNG "The survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations), The Organians (TOS "Errand of Mercy"), the Metrons (TOS "Arena"). Probably more examples if I actually digged.

What make your examples more relevent?

[Robert Walper]

I think Q put it best when he said: "To put it simply, we're omnipotent. There's nothing, nothing we can't do." He said this to Amanda Rogers when explaining to her what the Q (and by definition her) were. No one else was present, therefore claiming he was boasting seems really unlikely. Who's he boosting to? Her, with the ability to test his assertion?

Like Q said, "To put it simply", therefore a concession they're not omnipotent per say, but it's the closest human definition to describe them.

[Stravo]

If the innate powers are nonobservable, how will you test that theory?

Since our only evidence is observation, the question is meaningless, don't you think?

Uh...perhaps you have been ignoring the observations that I just refuse to reiterate at this fucking point. We have fucking SEEN Q technology. We have seen other omnipotents using hyper technology. We have no other plasuible explanations offered in universe. Stop fucking dancing around what has been repeated ad nauseum here.

But here are my main qualms about the innate powers:
How are they transferred to outsiders?

Irrelevent. We don't know how warp drive(technology) works either. We can only quantify and analyse it's effects. Same with mental powers.

Wrong again ass. Warp drive has an inuniverse explanation as do transporters, shields, mass lightening, inertial dampners, cloaking devices, photon torpedoes, phasers, disruptors, plasam torpedoes, etc.

Does not giving them to outsiders go against the very definition of innate?

Vision is a innate human ability. We can give and take vision away from machines, a vastly different form of existence than our own. Does this refute vision as a innate human ability?

Is a weapon innate? No. A Q weapon was handed to Janeway. Same effects are observed as if a Q used it. That is technology.

It adds another unknown force to the equation.

The technology explanation demands evidence of Q powers being dependent upon technology, since we know innate mental powers exist in several examples. And no, the Q's weapons does not consistute evidence their powers are dependent upon technology. Only that their powers can create it (assuming said weapons were technology, the Q routinely mention that human perception is altered in the Continuum).

AGAIN for the slow ones in the class. NO EVIDENCE IS OFFERED FOR Q's ABILITIES. NONE. NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Technology fills in a far more reasonable niche since there is a far greater weight of evidence for others of his power levels using technology than mental abilties. Kess did not give her powers to someone else. They were hers. mental powers are not given in any instance that I am aware of in Trek.

[Stravo]

I think Q put it best when he said: "To put it simply, we're omnipotent. There's nothing, nothing we can't do." He said this to Amanda Rogers when explaining to her what the Q (and by definition her) were. No one else was present, therefore claiming he was boasting seems really unlikely. Who's he boosting to? Her, with the ability to test his assertion?

Like Q said, "To put it simply", therefore a concession they're not omnipotent per say, but it's the closest human definition to describe them.

Which of course answers NOTHING to the question at hand.

[Stravo]

And the tech people want to dismiss Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), The Dowd (STTNG "The survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations), The Organians (TOS "Errand of Mercy"), the Metrons (TOS "Arena"). Probably more examples if I actually digged.

What make your examples more relevent?

Don't make me have to reanswer what I've already answered. You are expected to keep up with this in debates.

Really? Care to rephrase that because that is NOT the argument. The argument is that the Q use hyper advanced technology to accomplish their feats. All other god like beings have been shown to be using hyper tech or frauds masquerading as gods using hypertech.

Wrong. Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), the Dowd (STTNG "The Survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations"). There's more examples I'm sure.

All inuniverse explanations. Kes had a gifted mind that allowed her to manipulate matter (or something to that effect I missed alot of her episodes) The Dowd were advanced beings much like the Organians who evolved to the state and John Doe follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians. No inuniverse explanation for the Q.

[Robert Walper]

Uh...perhaps you have been ignoring the observations that I just refuse to reiterate at this fucking point. We have fucking SEEN Q technology.

I assume you mean their weapons? The ability to create technology means their powers are dependent upon technology...why?

We have seen other omnipotents using hyper technology.

And we've seen others that don't.

We have no other plasuible explanations offered in universe.

I believe mental powers have been mentioned many times now.

Irrelevent. We don't know how warp drive(technology) works either. We can only quantify and analyse it's effects. Same with mental powers.

Wrong again ass. Warp drive has an inuniverse explanation as do transporters, shields, mass lightening, inertial dampners, cloaking devices, photon torpedoes, phasers, disruptors, plasam torpedoes, etc.

The explanation being what exactly? You know how they work?

Vision is a innate human ability. We can give and take vision away from machines, a vastly different form of existence than our own. Does this refute vision as a innate human ability?

Is a weapon innate? No. A Q weapon was handed to Janeway. Same effects are observed as if a Q used it. That is technology.

The ability to create and utilize technology means their powers are dependent upon technology...why again? Kes can use a phaser, does that mean her powers must be technology based?

The technology explanation demands evidence of Q powers being dependent upon technology, since we know innate mental powers exist in several examples. And no, the Q's weapons does not consistute evidence their powers are dependent upon technology. Only that their powers can create it (assuming said weapons were technology, the Q routinely mention that human perception is altered in the Continuum).

AGAIN for the slow ones in the class. NO EVIDENCE IS OFFERED FOR Q's ABILITIES. NONE. NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Technology fills in a far more reasonable niche since there is a far greater weight of evidence for others of his power levels using technology than mental abilties. Kess did not give her powers to someone else.
[/quote]

You obviously haven't read my other half dozen examples of powerful begins that do not use technology.

They were hers. mental powers are not given in any instance that I am aware of in Trek.

Given in what context? Mental powers were given to Kirk, McCoy and Spock in TOS "Plato's Stepchildren" by simply eating the food of the planet. Mental powers were given to Charlie by the Thasians in TOS "Charlie X".

[Robert Walper]

Don't make me have to reanswer what I've already answered. You are expected to keep up with this in debates.

Wrong. Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), the Dowd (STTNG "The Survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations"). There's more examples I'm sure.

All inuniverse explanations. Kes had a gifted mind that allowed her to manipulate matter (or something to that effect I missed alot of her episodes) The Dowd were advanced beings much like the Organians who evolved to the state and John Doe follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians. No inuniverse explanation for the Q.

So evolution is the precedent for mental powers?

QUINN: But you mustn't think of us as omnipotent, no matter what the Continuum would like you to believe. You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to life-forms without your technical expertise. It's no different with us. We may appear omnipotent to you, but believe me, we're not.
TUVOK: Intriguing. Just what vulnerabilities do the Q have?
QUINN: Always on the lookout for the tactical advantage, Mister Tuvok. Very good. As a matter of fact, that's why I've come to see you. In a way, our vulnerability is what this is all about. As the Q have evolved, we've sacrificed many things along the way. Not just manners, but mortality, a sense of purpose, a desire for change, a capacity to grow. Every loss is a new vulnerability, wouldn't you say?

Good enough? A member of the Q stating they have evolved into what they are.

[Robert Walper]

Which of course answers NOTHING to the question at hand.

I was addressing the Q "omnipotence" crap.

[Lord Poe]

I think Q put it best when he said: "To put it simply, we're omnipotent. There's nothing, nothing we can't do." He said this to Amanda Rogers when explaining to her what the Q (and by definition her) were. No one else was present, therefore claiming he was boasting seems really unlikely. Who's he boosting to? Her, with the ability to test his assertion?

Did you even watch that episode? Q was cajoling her into BEING a Q, and not a "regular human" as her parents wanted her to be.

Secondly, Q also said the Borg were neither male or female. He also told Picard "they're not interested in you, they are interested in your technology".

Whoops.

Thirdly, why is there ANOTHER Q thread dealing with the exact same thing as the Hall of Shame thread?

[Robert Walper]

I think Q put it best when he said: "To put it simply, we're omnipotent. There's nothing, nothing we can't do." He said this to Amanda Rogers when explaining to her what the Q (and by definition her) were. No one else was present, therefore claiming he was boasting seems really unlikely. Who's he boosting to? Her, with the ability to test his assertion?

Did you even watch that episode? Q was cajoling her into BEING a Q, and not a "regular human" as her parents wanted her to be.

Secondly, Q also said the Borg were neither male or female. He also told Picard "they're not interested in you, they are interested in your technology".

Whoops.

In other words, Q has lied (your examples I'd call argueable, but off topic), therefore everything he says is a lie. Sorry, I don't subscribe to that.

[Robert Walper]

Thirdly, why is there ANOTHER Q thread dealing with the exact same thing as the Hall of Shame thread?

I believe Briancyi started this one to focus on a specific aspect of the the discussion in the HOS...

[Lord Poe]

In other words, Q has lied (your examples I'd call argueable, but off topic), therefore everything he says is a lie. Sorry, I don't subscribe to that.

No, he didn't lie. HE WAS WRONG. Again, whoops.

[Stravo]

Uh...perhaps you have been ignoring the observations that I just refuse to reiterate at this fucking point. We have fucking SEEN Q technology.

I assume you mean their weapons? The ability to create technology means their powers are dependent upon technology...why?

WHY Create technology in the first place if you have godlike innate talents. If you can do anything with a snap of the fingers there is not point in making the weapons in the first place.

We have seen other omnipotents using hyper technology.

And we've seen others that don't.

Nice, I'm glad you took the time to give me a nice in depth counter. I've given REPEATED instances of how my examples have weight and I've had NONE from you.

We have no other plasuible explanations offered in universe.

I believe mental powers have been mentioned many times now.

And I believe we've bitchslapped that explanation enough times to render the point moot.

Wrong again ass. Warp drive has an inuniverse explanation as do transporters, shields, mass lightening, inertial dampners, cloaking devices, photon torpedoes, phasers, disruptors, plasam torpedoes, etc.

The explanation being what exactly? You know how they work?

SIGH. DO we really need to get into the technobbale now? Do I NEED to tell you that a photon troepdoe is an antimatter warhead. That Warpdrive operates by creating a subspace field that allows the ship to travel FTL? I know I don't Borg boy so don't play retard with me.

The ability to create and utilize technology means their powers are dependent upon technology...why again? Kes can use a phaser, does that mean her powers must be technology based?

Does Kess need to use a phaser to protect herself? Is Kess considered Omnipotent? Do I need to draw a fucking point by point map? If Q is omnipotent he does not need weapons. Simple enough for you?

You obviously haven't read my other half dozen examples of powerful begins that do not use technology.

You fucking cumstain you obviously haven't read my rebuttals nor do you want to. No one has fucking refuted them and I am fast losing my patience with the fucking circle jerk going on here. Stop asking the same fucking questions that were answered a page ago and stop ignoring the evidence proferred to go back to an earlier point.

They were hers. mental powers are not given in any instance that I am aware of in Trek.

Given in what context? Mental powers were given to Kirk, McCoy and Spock in TOS "Plato's Stepchildren" by simply eating the food of the planet. Mental powers were given to Charlie by the Thasians in TOS "Charlie X".

LIAR

LIAR

Kirk and the others gained their abilties by use of the fruit extract. It was a natural btproduct of the fruit's effect on the brain. This was not GIVEN to them by anyone else. You fucking lying sack of shit.

Charlie was TAUGHT his abilties by the beings that raised him you fucking lying sack of shit.

[Stravo]

All inuniverse explanations. Kes had a gifted mind that allowed her to manipulate matter (or something to that effect I missed alot of her episodes) The Dowd were advanced beings much like the Organians who evolved to the state and John Doe follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians. No inuniverse explanation for the Q.

[/quote]

So evolution is the precedent for mental powers?

NO JACKASS. Read it clearly you lying sack of shit.


follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians.

ENERGY BEING STATE OF THE ORGANIANS. as in energy beings which the Q clearly are not. If you fucking lie one more time about what I said this gets kicked up another level.

I fucking CLEARLY placed Kess (mental powers) on the other side of the equation and seperated her from the Organians and their ilk.

You can take your big font tricks and shove them up your sore ass.

[Robert Walper]

I assume you mean their weapons? The ability to create technology means their powers are dependent upon technology...why?

WHY Create technology in the first place if you have godlike innate talents. If you can do anything with a snap of the fingers there is not point in making the weapons in the first place.

A) Q are not omnipotent. Not disputed.
B) The ability to create technology to enhance innate abilities (for example, moving dirt) does not mean innate abilities are technology based.

And we've seen others that don't.

Nice, I'm glad you took the time to give me a nice in depth counter. I've given REPEATED instances of how my examples have weight and I've had NONE from you.

In other words, your examples of entities using technology to achieve their ends is superior to entities that have demostrated no technology basis for their powers? Sorry, I don't buy it.

I believe mental powers have been mentioned many times now.

And I believe we've bitchslapped that explanation enough times to render the point moot.

In other words, mental powers, despite existing in Trek, does not consititute a valid explanation for you? Oh well.

The explanation being what exactly? You know how they work?

SIGH. DO we really need to get into the technobbale now? Do I NEED to tell you that a photon troepdoe is an antimatter warhead. That Warpdrive operates by creating a subspace field that allows the ship to travel FTL? I know I don't Borg boy so don't play retard with me.

Ah, so because the mechanism behind mental powers in not understood, we cannot use it as an explanation despite it's existence in Trek anyhow? If that's how you insist on playing it, fine. Just don't expect me to agree with it.

Does Kess need to use a phaser to protect herself?

No. But even with her powers she could be harmed, and was killed by one.

Is Kess considered Omnipotent?

Nope. But since the Q aren't Omnipotent either...

Do I need to draw a fucking point by point map? If Q is omnipotent he does not need weapons. Simple enough for you?

Great. When I start claiming the Q are omnipotent, let me know.

Given in what context? Mental powers were given to Kirk, McCoy and Spock in TOS "Plato's Stepchildren" by simply eating the food of the planet. Mental powers were given to Charlie by the Thasians in TOS "Charlie X".

LIAR

LIAR

Kirk and the others gained their abilties by use of the fruit extract.

Excuse me on the technicality. The others had acquired their powers by eating the fruit there. The away team used the extract to accelerate the effect.

It was a natural btproduct of the fruit's effect on the brain. This was not GIVEN to them by anyone else. You fucking lying sack of shit.

The point was it was a non technological means by which they achieved mental powers. What part of this do you not grasp?

Charlie was TAUGHT his abilties by the beings that raised him you fucking lying sack of shit.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode in a long time. But according to StarTrek.com, his abilities were given to him by those beings.

[Lord Poe]

Here's something else to disprove the omnipotence of Q;

Hide and Q: Riker (now with Q powers!) make Wesley 25 years old:



And here's a picture of the "actual" Wesley Crusher:

Wheaton at 32

Ahem...whoops.

[Robert Walper]

So evolution is the precedent for mental powers?

NO JACKASS. Read it clearly you lying sack of shit.

follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians.

ENERGY BEING STATE OF THE ORGANIANS. as in energy beings which the Q clearly are not.

So this not an energy being? This is how Q first appeared in STTNG "Hide and Q", he later reformed into his usual guise.

[Robert Walper]

Here's something else to disprove the omnipotence of Q

Disproving the omnipotence of the Q? To whom? We know they're not omnipotent already. Jeez.

[SirNitram]

So here's one for the Pro-Magic side who seem to be clustering here and not the other thread(Probably because of the number of vet debators employing logic and reason there...).

Parsimony disagrees with you.

Innate powers not shown before, are by definition Unexplained Unknowns.

Technology that is identical to Federation Tech except in scope(A Transporter that can move starships, time travel, replicators, holodecks, et cetera, ad naeseum, ad infinium) is not Unexplained or Unknown. It is a perfectly legitimate explanation using an established capability.

Ergo, Parsimony employed logically selects the technology theory as superior. Given there is precisely zero evidence it's really magic, I think this sums up the whole thing nicely. Not that logical conclusions tend to stop threads like this.

[Stravo]

So this not an energy being? This is how Q first appeared in STTNG "Hide and Q", he later reformed into his usual guise.

See unlike you I am not put off by appearances. The Organians clearly state they are energy beings. The guy who evolves into an energy being (Doe) says so too, backed up by Crusher's medical exams, etc.

Now when does Q state or prove other than your PIRTY pictures that he is an energy being? Hey look, Picard just tapped his chest and vanished in a column of glittering bright light. He MUST be an energy being,

Thanks Robert you opened my eyes to the truth.

[Lord Poe]

Disproving the omnipotence of the Q? To whom? We know they're not omnipotent already. Jeez.

You should know by now that I have a low tolerance for semantic bullshit.

Like Q said, "To put it simply", therefore a concession they're not omnipotent per say, but it's the closest human definition to describe them.

Ok, I'm human. Omnipotence to me is "Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful" (Dictionary.com). As a human,I expect that a being labeling himself omnipotent 'to the closest human definition' would be able to get Borg physiology right, and be able to correctly extrapolate a 10 year difference in Wesley Crusher.