zerg vs starship troopers

[brianeyci]

If we assume that a missile from a Terran missile site is at least as powerful as the missile shot from the Terran Siege Tank at the Dragoon, then we know the missile is armor piercing and at least has that yield. Not pathetic at all.

Brian

[Steven Snyder]

So we are at a situation where the cinematics don't show enough and the game mechanics are worthless, as they should be, to us.

I stand by my statement, the Bugs from SST are a highly numerous species and have a significant amount of technology. They were tough, had guns, starships, sharp sticks, knives..etc etc etc. The Zerg a carbon-copy of them.

[Siege]

Are there any numbers on the SST bugs? Zerg are supposed to number in the billions per brood, excluding the 'spec-ops' broods like (I think) Tiamat.

[Steven Snyder]

The worker bugs outnumbered the warrior bugs by a ratio of 50:1. The SST were outnumbered by the warriors by "the thousands".

[wautd]

well i finally got my hands on the SST book. About time i'd say

now to find time to read the fucker

[Steven Snyder]

well i finally got my hands on the SST book. About time i'd say

Just go to...
The Entire book is right here in PDF!

[brianeyci]

The worker bugs outnumbered the warrior bugs by a ratio of 50:1. The SST were outnumbered by the warriors by "the thousands".

Still not even numbers, the Zerg are still an order of magnitude greater than the SST if we take 2000 x 50. Even if we take 9000 x 50 (the most we can call thousands and not get into "tens of thousands"), still an order of magnitude the Zerg outnumber them by.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Actually sorry, I didn't read that correctly. If we assume a SST force of a hundred thousand, then that puts the bugs in the same order of magnitude in terms of numbers as the Zerg.

Brian

[Steven Snyder]

Actually sorry, I didn't read that correctly. If we assume a SST force of a hundred thousand, then that puts the bugs in the same order of magnitude in terms of numbers as the Zerg.

Brian

The MI aren't sent in with those kinds of numbers, they rely on combined arms rather than just numbers to do the job. And with tactical nukes that have a kill-radius of 1km, they are quite good at winnowing down their enemies after the Navy has done their part.

I still don't think that the Zerg have a snowball's chance in hell of stopping the SST, the Bugs are significantly more advanced than the Zerg.

[mauldooku]

If we assume that a missile from a Terran missile site is at least as powerful as the missile shot from the Terran Siege Tank at the Dragoon, then we know the missile is armor piercing and at least has that yield. Not pathetic at all.

Brian

However, that was clearly not a Siege Tank in the cinematic. It was some weird single-man short-ranged arillery piece that we never see in-game; it doesn't look anything close to what Siege Tanks look like.

And sorry, Stofsk, I can't find my manual

[Lancer]

which goes to show you that the game is hardly all that indicative of what actually goes on in the Starcraft universe.

[brianeyci]

The MI aren't sent in with those kinds of numbers, they rely on combined arms rather than just numbers to do the job. And with tactical nukes that have a kill-radius of 1km, they are quite good at winnowing down their enemies after the Navy has done their part.

I still don't think that the Zerg have a snowball's chance in hell of stopping the SST, the Bugs are significantly more advanced than the Zerg.

And numbers do not matter because? We're talking hundreds of millions compared to several billion. Advanced or not, what happens when the Zerg start infesting human territories? They are not going to want to use nukes all the time if they want to clear out infestations.

The Zerg appeared slowly, attacking without leaving a trace (see SC opening video when the guys see the debris field, its possible that the Protoss destroyed that fleet but unlikely as the Protoss were not going around attacking Terran fleets). Then they slowly infested outlying outposts and kept their homeplanets hidden. Zerg aren't Klingons, they don't mindlessly charge their opponents. Zerg appear to use combined arms, melee units to take care of things like Zealots, Hydralisks, heavy explosives in the form of infested terrans, and air units which are always devourers flying around with scourge and guardians. All of this we've seen in cinematics.

Brian

[Steven Snyder]

And numbers do not matter because? We're talking hundreds of millions compared to several billion

Because when it comes down to it, the SST forces have planet-busting Nova bombs and orbital bombardment to reduce those numbers dramatically. You might have a billion Zerg on Klendathu, but when it is rendered a radioactive ball of fire, you have none.

Advanced or not, what happens when the Zerg start infesting human territories?

The Bugs were a problem because they had armed captial ships, FTL, and could conceivably win a naval engagement. The Zerg have no such capacity.

They are not going to want to use nukes all the time if they want to clear out infestations.

Based on what? We aren't talking about the United Federation of Planets here. The only reason they didn't nuke planet "P" until it glowed was that they wanted a brain bug to capture, and even then they glassed all the islands on that world that they didn't have any combat operations.

The Zerg appeared slowly, attacking without leaving a trace (see SC opening video when the guys see the debris field, its possible that the Protoss destroyed that fleet but unlikely as the Protoss were not going around attacking Terran fleets).

Pure speculation, and then you assume that the pathetice SC fleets are anywhere as capable as those in SST.

Then they slowly infested outlying outposts and kept their homeplanets hidden. Zerg aren't Klingons, they don't mindlessly charge their opponents.

And if those worlds had a decent level of technology, competent officials, and a non-corrupt government, this wouldn't have happened. You know damned well that the reason the Zerg spread so quickly through Terran space is that the Terrans had idiots making the decision.

This does not apply to the scenario, we are discussing the attack on Klendathu.

Zerg appear to use combined arms, melee units to take care of things like Zealots,

The SST forces have no use for melee units, Zergs would be wiped out in droved by orbital bombardments, atmosphere strike craft, heavy flamers, nukes, and high explosive

Hydralisks,

Sorry but some lizard shooting spikes out of his back doesn't strike me as a substitute for ranged combatants in the terms of modern or high-tech warfare.

heavy explosives in the form of infested terrans,

Which have to run up their opponents and blow themselves up, am I correct? Again this is a melee fighter which would be slaughtered by the methods noted above as they attempt to close with the MI, who can easily jump to safety.

and air units which are always devourers flying around with scourge and guardians. All of this we've seen in cinematics.

Which may have caused a problem for the SC Terrans, but I don't see how they will be much of a challenge against the combined arms of the SST forces.

[brianeyci]

Because when it comes down to it, the SST forces have planet-busting Nova bombs and orbital bombardment to reduce those numbers dramatically. You might have a billion Zerg on Klendathu, but when it is rendered a radioactive ball of fire, you have none.

Depends on how often they use these alternatives as opposed to the good old SST. If they are as ruthless as you say they are, why do they even bother with SST? They obviously need to take and hold ground, and won't destroy every planet they come across.

And, it depends how widely spread out the billions of Zerg are. The billions of Zerg may not congregate in cities and be widely spread out. The controlling overmind cannot be destroyed except by Dark Templar energies.

The Bugs were a problem because they had armed captial ships, FTL, and could conceivably win a naval engagement. The Zerg have no such capacity.

The Zerg are able to defeat Terran capital ships, and Protoss capital ships. The Zerg also have FTL by definition to be able to travel the vastness of space.

Based on what? We aren't talking about the United Federation of Planets here. The only reason they didn't nuke planet "P" until it glowed was that they wanted a brain bug to capture, and even then they glassed all the islands on that world that they didn't have any combat operations.

Based on if the Zerg start infesting planets that are inhabited by humans, they won't want to nuke their own fucking citizens.

And overminds are one giant brain.

Pure speculation, and then you assume that the pathetice SC fleets are anywhere as capable as those in SST.

Ever see SST ships decloak out of nowhere? To rid all planet of life, you need at least 1e9 megatons according to DW, and on the high end like Lexx destroying the planetary crust 1e11 megatons. Protoss fleets can throw out this amount of energy.

Have any numbers for the yield of SST weapons other than their nukes? In space nukes will be far less effective. What about SST primary guns? If we take a wraith's missiles to be as effective as the Infested Terran charging the bunker, we come up with a number for wraith missiles.

And if those worlds had a decent level of technology, competent officials, and a non-corrupt government, this wouldn't have happened. You know damned well that the reason the Zerg spread so quickly through Terran space is that the Terrans had idiots making the decision.

This does not apply to the scenario, we are discussing the attack on Klendathu.

Fine.

The SST forces have no use for melee units, Zergs would be wiped out in droved by orbital bombardments, atmosphere strike craft, heavy flamers, nukes, and high explosive.

All of which the Terrans have. And you suppose that Zerg don't use their melee units wisely as terror units. The example of the Zerglings charging while the Terrans were distracted is one. Another is the use of "burrow" to come up and surprise Terran units. Another is the surprise of the Jeep cinematic, and another is the ambush of Fenix. Zerg don't just mass and charge ridiculously like WWI grunts, they hide, they ambush, they pick off and they only attack when they can win. These are all from cinematics BTW.

Sorry but some lizard shooting spikes out of his back doesn't strike me as a substitute for ranged combatants in the terms of modern or high-tech warfare.

Don't like it, too bad. These lizards stop 8 mm rounds that go at hypersonic speeds, if you've been reading the thread and the evidence presented. Indeed, this was a Zergling's carapace at point blank range. A Hydralisk's carapace is thicker from the cinematics.

Which have to run up their opponents and blow themselves up, am I correct? Again this is a melee fighter which would be slaughtered by the methods noted above as they attempt to close with the MI, who can easily jump to safety.

Which the said infested terran was being hit by 8 mm hypersonic rounds, and that didn't even slow him down. You can't jump fixed defenses, and that's what infested terrans are used for.

Which may have caused a problem for the SC Terrans, but I don't see how they will be much of a challenge against the combined arms of the SST forces.

Devourers, scourge and mutalisks indicate different units for different air tasks, combined arms to me.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Oh, and another is the Science Station cinematic, when the Hydralisks hide until the Marines are within point blank range and the Marines are forced to detonate the cold fusion device.

Every cinematic shows the Zerg being devious, using their intelligence and ambushing. Have SST bugs showed this level of intelligence on a consistent basis?

Billions of Zerg on a planet can hide underground in tunnels and blend with the local wildlife, while the overmind is impervious. How good are SST sensors, can they even detect billions of Zerg on a planet or do they need to do recon?

Brian

[Siege]

You know, seeing as that the Zerg were capable of effortlessly overrunning the Confederacy's capital of Tarsonis and raping the shit out of it in no time at all and then continuing on to do the exact same thing with the capital planet Aiur of the most powerful race in the known galaxy (the Protoss), I really think some people here are slightly underestimating their capabilities.

And once again, it's well within the capabilities of the Terrans to turn a planet into a molten glass desert, as per the nuclear holocaust on Korhal. It just hasn't been done before. But I doubt everyone just destroyed the specs on the Apocalypse missiles. I doubt that folk like the UED would even adhere to the treaty, so God knows what they have stashed back home (but that's all speculation and rather worthless of course).

And yeah, Zerg burrow.

[Siege]

EDIT: "been done before" should have been "been done in some time now". Gah @ proofreading.

[Adun]

Billions of Zerg on a planet can hide underground in tunnels and blend with the local wildlife, while the overmind is impervious.

I don´t recall the overmind or the cerebrates being impervious at all, it was that unless attacked with the Dark Templar energies, they would just reincarnate.

The SST forces have no use for melee units, Zergs would be wiped out in droved by orbital bombardments, atmosphere strike craft, heavy flamers, nukes, and high explosive

I won´t deny the use of nukes and high explosives, but how are the SST ships going to bombard after being received by hundreds, or thousands of Scourges?.

[Ghost Rider]

Honestly I'd like to see some raw hard number or this thing goes the way of spam and gets locked because right now it's

SST: They would easily overrun them

SC: Nu-Uh

SST: Uh-HUH!

SC: NU-UH!!!!



And since this is a versus let's try to at least put forth something objective. If you can't find it, then drop the debate because I don't need to see another 5 page+ monstrocity that pisses over what this site tries to establish itself as.

[Siege]

So... Just a proposition.

Just after the SST whooped the bug's collective asses and returned home victorious to celebrate with parades and marches and great balls and flag-waving and whatever it is fascistoid folk do when they come home victorious from a war (I hope I don't totally misinterprete Troopers here), they lose contact with a faraway outpost.

Either way, recon goes out, doesn't come back. More recon goes out, some telemetry from a probe sends back some disturbing data. The planet seems to be covered in purple goo. Trooper high command goes "WTF" and launches a fleet, turns out there is a bigass fleet of organic-looking ships not entirely unlike the bugs waiting on their doorstep. The Overmind decides it likes the psychic humans, and wants them as his personal pet-playthings. Invasion commences.

Overmind has all Zerg as per the SC manual (someone look up the numbers, they ought to make a total of a dozen billion, perhaps more), SST get everything they have in the book.

What happens?

[SylasGaunt]

I won´t deny the use of nukes and high explosives, but how are the SST ships going to bombard after being received by hundreds, or thousands of Scourges?.

Simple.. they move instead of drifting slowly along and letting a scourge slowly drift into them. Scourge's aren't exactly speed demons going by the one cut-scene we've seen them in.

[SylasGaunt]

Overmind has all Zerg as per the SC manual (someone look up the numbers, they ought to make a total of a dozen billion, perhaps more),

Err no-

According to the numbers in the manual:


Tiamat Brood (command fleet): ~6.5 million zerg
Fenris Brood (hunter swarm): ~5500 zerg
Baelrog Broos (terror squad): ~6000 zerg
Garm Brood (Primary Assault Force): ~10,000 zerg
Jormungand Brood (Primary Support Force): ~3 million zerg
Surtur Brood (Heavy Support Force): ~2.6 million zerg

That comes out to a bit over 12 million troops.

[brianeyci]

Objective proof? Okay.

We're forgetting SC : Ghost. We can actually see the units in action. Sure, a lot of it is game mechanics, but at least we can compare the sizes of units.

First, SC units don't have really shitty range. See this. The zoom range is pathetic, but that is just game mechanics. The movie shows that SC does use combined arms in the form of indirect fire, and that SC rifles don't just rely on hand-eye co-ordination and have a sophisticated sighting system on its rifles.

Next,

.

That's the Ghost's irridate ability, showing that SC Zerg units do indeed have radiation resistance. Yes, yes, fuck I know that is not what radiation looks like, but that's game mechanics for you. We know qualitatively that Ghosts can call down radiation attacks on Zerg.

Hydralisks, Lurkers, Zerglings.

Also concept art for a C-20 Canister rifle. I'm assuming the game rifle is based on this concept art. I am no gun fanatic, but it looks egronomical enough to me with an extendable shoulder stock, scope, trigger guard, and multiple firing modes.

Ghost is useless for determining things like firepower since that is all game mechanics, but we can determine unit sizes and tactics of the Zerg. Terrans don't look too shabby from the screens I've seen, and use combined arms just as well as anybody else. Zerg have to deal with this.

Brian

[Siege]

Yeah, I looked up the numbers too and it seems I've grossly misremembered them. Though I would like to note this, which goes with the broods:

Although there is very little known about the different Broods that comprise the Zerg Swarms, some Terran scientists have attempted to document and classify a few of the larger Broods that have ransacked their colonies.

It at the very least implies that there might be many more broods out there. But still, they would number only in the millions, not billions.

[SylasGaunt]

I think you're throwing the term 'game mechanics' around far too liberally. Game Mechanics would be stuff like the invulnerable trees in Halo and Starcraft, i.e. engine limitations and the like. A low zoom factor on a scope is just that, a low zoom (of course until the game actually comes out I don't think we'll know whether or not that 1.6x zoom is the max or not though I doubt it is).

Furthermore we know they have indirect fire capable units, the fact that seige tanks can do that is nothing new (though the blast radius on those rounds is pathetic).