The Q Revisited.

[Ghost Rider]

Betazoid and Vulcan telepathy is obvoiusly not magic. It is because their brains can pick up other people's brain waves or something. It can be explained with biology. Q's feats can't. Have you ever seen Deanna or Spock give their powers to someone else? No. Have we seen them lose these powers: yes. But that is comprable to us losing our hearing, or our sight. Or more specifcally, someone putting a blindfold on us. This however, has nothing to do with Q.

So the crux of the argument is that because the Q can give away their powers, their powers are probably technological?

Walper has already brought up the magic powder reference, I can probably find more. And Spock did give away his powers. Remember that episode when Spock altered the thoughts of Kirk, McCoy and Scotty so that they would think that the bullets were not real? It depends on whether you think mental discipline of that sort is a kind of "power", but Spock needed years of training to get to that point and he gives it away to the gang just like that (temporarily of course).

Brian

Gee...or did he use his telepathic power like Troi has.

Or

Did he GIVE them his powers.

And the crux is...prove that it's tech given we have more examples of it being technology. We've seen that it follows more that's technology then it being this innate ability that is even akin to Betazoids or Vulcans. Which are both proven biological enhancements...by other sources then their own.

Right, let's go right up there with a storm is caused by the thunder God, Thor and Zeus masturbating.

[Rogue 9]

I also love you used Vulcan tech...when we know it's enhancement because their abilites are biological. Like the Betazoids. In fact within Trek they've PROVEN this.

Let's look at the context in which I brought up the Vulcans and Betazed. Part of the argument at the time was that Q's abilities could not be innate because every other example of supposedly magical abilities turned out to be technological frauds, which is why I pointed out the blindingly obvious examples of the Vulcans and Betazed. In fact, those examples are apparently so blindingly obvious that everyone forgot about them. I wasn't trying to say that Vulcan telepathy is innate, therefore Q's powers are innate. All I wanted to convey was that yes, it was possible for apparently magical abilities to exist in Trek without being frauds.

[Stravo]

Technology in Trek is king not magic. Are we seriously expected to believe in magic in Trek?

Given the existence of Betazoid and Vulcan nontechnological telepathic powers, yes.

Nontechnological proven biological abilties. There is no proof that the Q ability is biological. In fact all the examples of Q said so only say that he can do something not HOW he does it.

I bring in a fucking mountain of evidence in terms of prior episodes and overarching themes as well as prior examples of Q use of technology and you bring me Vulcan mind melds?!

[Robert Walper]

So the crux of the argument is that because the Q can give away their powers, their powers are probably technological?

You can't give away biological powers.

Why not? I can donate blood and anti-bodies to someone who doesn't have it or needs it.

[Rogue 9]

Technology in Trek is king not magic. Are we seriously expected to believe in magic in Trek?

Given the existence of Betazoid and Vulcan nontechnological telepathic powers, yes.

Nontechnological proven biological abilties. There is no proof that the Q ability is biological. In fact all the examples of Q said so only say that he can do something not HOW he does it.

I bring in a fucking mountain of evidence in terms of prior episodes and overarching themes as well as prior examples of Q use of technology and you bring me Vulcan mind melds?!

Of course. You claimed that such abilities could not exist without a technological cause in Trek (i.e. they could not be magic), due to all the technological frauds you brought up. This being an absolute statement, all I need is one example to the contrary. I found two. And I know next to nothing about more obscure Trek; there could easily be more. Furthermore, appealing to the overarching theme of TOS violates suspension of disbelief. If we're going to make this into a literary argument then it's readily apparent that the Q are not meant to be understood, but rather to appear as enigmatic beings who can do whatever the hell they want. This concept does not fit with easily replicable technology.

[VT-16]

Note he says 'primitive machinery', hmmm

Primitive in comparison to the Q´s technology, which makes them seem like Gods to more primitive beings.

[Jon]

Note he says 'primitive machinery', hmmm

Primitive in comparison to the Q´s technology, which makes them seem like Gods to more primitive beings.

Quite, that's why I mentioned it. But we know the Q use tech (the weapons we saw), I don't think that's what is being argued really- but still, I think that statement aludes to it anyway.

[Robert Walper]

Why not? I can donate blood and anti-bodies to someone who doesn't have it or needs it.

Now that I think about it, that statement was pretty dumb. But you are talking about giving something to someone who is already compatible with it. If Q powers are like an organ that can just be plugged it, that might explain giving them away, but just how do you add something that doesn't belong?

Like an artificial hip or heart valve? Glasses? Metal plate in the skull? None of that "belongs" and yet is done today.

It 's not like our bodies have USB ports waiting for new add-ons. I still think the technology theory fits the facts better.

Except there's absolutely no evidence for the Q being dependent upon technology for their powers other than the old arguement "advanced technology could concievably do it".

[Batman]

Like an artificial hip or heart valve? Glasses? Metal plate in the skull? None of that "belongs" and yet is done today.

Says it all, I think.

[Robert Walper]

Like an artificial hip or heart valve? Glasses? Metal plate in the skull? None of that "belongs" and yet is done today.

Says it all, I think.

That was merely addressing the specific point of human bodies not having "USB" ports to accomodate foreign attachments. I'm well aware human "powers" are generally restricted to technology.

[Stravo]

Given the existence of Betazoid and Vulcan nontechnological telepathic powers, yes.

Nontechnological proven biological abilties. There is no proof that the Q ability is biological. In fact all the examples of Q said so only say that he can do something not HOW he does it.

I bring in a fucking mountain of evidence in terms of prior episodes and overarching themes as well as prior examples of Q use of technology and you bring me Vulcan mind melds?!

Of course. You claimed that such abilities could not exist without a technological cause in Trek (i.e. they could not be magic), due to all the technological frauds you brought up.

Really? Care to rephrase that because that is NOT the argument. The argument is that the Q use hyper advanced technology to accomplish their feats. All other god like beings have been shown to be using hyper tech or frauds masquerading as gods using hypertech. That is NOT a literary device. That is proven fact showing a trend in universe using Suspension of Disbelief.

The Vulcan/Betazed examples are irrelvant as they have an inuniverse explanation. Betazeds are genetically gifted with this ability, Vulcans extended their natural psionic gifts through rigorous mediattion and discpline.

Using your logic Vulcan strength is also magical since it is an innate ability without explanation. Where pray tell do we hear an explanation of Q's abilities ANYWHERE in TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT???

This being an absolute statement, all I need is one example to the contrary. I found two. And I know next to nothing about more obscure Trek; there could easily be more.

And since your examples were proven wrong you're welcome to try again after you restate the true objective and not strawman it to your liking.

Seems the innate side knows next to nothing about Trek in general since they've constantly misstated episodes, ignored examples and in general hand waved and bictched about this being ridiculous or stupd. For something so stupid and ridiculous there sure is a hard time trying to put a nail in this coffin isn't it?

[If we're going to make this into a literary argument then it's readily apparent that the Q are not meant to be understood, but rather to appear as enigmatic beings who can do whatever the hell they want. This concept does not fit with easily replicable technology.

That's right...keep ignoring the trends, evidence, examples, your looking more and more like Darkstar with every post.

[Robert Walper]

Really? Care to rephrase that because that is NOT the argument. The argument is that the Q use hyper advanced technology to accomplish their feats. All other god like beings have been shown to be using hyper tech or frauds masquerading as gods using hypertech.

Wrong. Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), the Dowd (STTNG "The Survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations"). There's more examples I'm sure.

[Stravo]

Really? Care to rephrase that because that is NOT the argument. The argument is that the Q use hyper advanced technology to accomplish their feats. All other god like beings have been shown to be using hyper tech or frauds masquerading as gods using hypertech.

Wrong. Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), the Dowd (STTNG "The Survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations"). There's more examples I'm sure.

All inuniverse explanations. Kes had a gifted mind that allowed her to manipulate matter (or something to that effect I missed alot of her episodes) The Dowd were advanced beings much like the Organians who evolved to the state and John Doe follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians. No inuniverse explanation for the Q.

[Robert Walper]

Wrong. Kes (STVOY "The Gift"), the Dowd (STTNG "The Survivors"), John Doe (STTNG "Transfigurations"). There's more examples I'm sure.

All inuniverse explanations. Kes had a gifted mind that allowed her to manipulate matter (or something to that effect I missed alot of her episodes) The Dowd were advanced beings much like the Organians who evolved to the state and John Doe follows the inuniverse pattern of certain races evolving to an energy being state like the Organians. No inuniverse explanation for the Q.

And therefore Q powers must default to technology...why?

[Stravo]

And therefore Q powers must default to technology...why?

Absence of evidence leads to the most reasonable explanation. Are we running in circles here?

The innate people think it is reasonable to believe that Q - a known liar and trickster is a god that uses 'magic' despite the absence of any such being anywhere in Trek.

The Tech people are saying - everything that is accomplished by Q can be explained by a natural extrapolation and upscaling of existing 23rd century tech.

The tech people: Wanna move a world, mass lightening tech that keeps the Enterprise together scaled up to a celestial level (Other gods have demonstarted similar abilties such as Trelayne chasing the Enterprise with a fucking planet and he is a PROVEN tech user and in some circles considered an immature Q.)

The innate people: Wanna move a planet - snap your fingers.

Yeah - I know which one is reasonable.

[Rogue 9]

Furthermore, appealing to the overarching theme of TOS violates suspension of disbelief.

Still true, Stravo. The trends of TOS are an out of universe thing; in universe there was no connection between the technological frauds. Is this debate using suspension of disbelief or not?

[Robert Walper]

And therefore Q powers must default to technology...why?

Because its the best theory we have.

How is the technology theory superior to the innate abilities theory? Neither is understood, regardless of which one is true. The technology theory, IMHO, fails on the basis of no evidence supporting technology as the source of Q powers. Innate mental powers on the other hand by definition are going to be non observable.

Canon didn't give us an explaination, only observations.

Observations devoid of any technological apparatus that supposedly empowers them. We know innate mental powers exist in Trek. We know that a Betazoid when sensing a Q's mind senses "enormously powerful and frightening mind".

Now we have formulated this technology theory to explain the observations. Until someone can provide an alternate theory that fits all the facts and doesn't introduce unneccessary terms, I'm going to stick to what we have.

Innate mental abilities addresses the lack of any technological apparatus responsible for Q powers. How they flex those powers or power them is unknown. But that goes for the technology angle as well.

[Jon]

Q: "I've learned my lesson, Q."
Q2: "Remember who you're talking to. All-knowing,
all-seeing."

Do they keep up the charade between themselves?

"None of us knew whether she had inherited the capacities of
the Q, but recently they've become to emerge, and uh, as an
expert in humanity, I was sent to investigate."
Riker: "You? An expert in humanity."
Q: "Not a very *challenging* field of study, I grant you."

LaForge: "Are you saying that you created a core breach just
to...*test* this girl?"
Q: "Uh-huh."
Troi: "What would have happened if she couldn't stop it?"
Q: "Then I would've known that she wasn't a Q!"

Picard: "You agree that she has a right to choose her own
future, but the first chance you get, you try to abduct her!"
Q: "Oh! You're overreacting as usual, Picard. I was merely
testing her powers."

She doesn't know she's a Q, yet she can manipulate their unseen technology? I know Rogers was brought up earlier in the thread but eitherway. When they are in private, Q doesn't talk about the great technology she can now use, he talks to her about 'powers' and abilities.

[Robert Walper]

The innate people think it is reasonable to believe that Q - a known liar and trickster is a god that uses 'magic' despite the absence of any such being anywhere in Trek.

We don't need to appeal to magic. Only mental abilities greater than previously witnessed ones. Sorta like your technology greater than previously observed technology arguement.

The Tech people are saying - everything that is accomplished by Q can be explained by a natural extrapolation and upscaling of existing 23rd century tech.

And greater mental abilities are impossible because...?

The tech people: Wanna move a world, mass lightening tech that keeps the Enterprise together scaled up to a celestial level (Other gods have demonstarted similar abilties such as Trelayne chasing the Enterprise with a fucking planet and he is a PROVEN tech user and in some circles considered an immature Q.)

Irrelevent. There's examples of both technology users and users of innate abilities. Kes hurled Voyager almost ten thousand light years by mental powers alone. Q hurled the Enterprise over seven thousand lightyears. Why must he have used technology, when a being of mental ability can surpass it?

The innate people: Wanna move a planet - snap your fingers.

Yeah - I know which one is reasonable.

Innate mental abilities exist in Trek as well. More advanced mental abilities should by definition be capable of greater feats. As I pointed out earlier, Troi sensed a "enormously power and frightening mind" in STTNG "Encounter at Farpoint". What makes the technology theory superior? It requires evidence of technology the Q depend upon for powers to support it. Innate mental powers by definition does not.

[Stravo]

Furthermore, appealing to the overarching theme of TOS violates suspension of disbelief.

Still true, Stravo. The trends of TOS are an out of universe thing; in universe there was no connection between the technological frauds. Is this debate using suspension of disbelief or not?

Hold on. If a starship captain runs into a being claiming to be a god he doesn't look back at past starship captain experiences to see how to deal with these claims? Starfleet does not put together dossiers and past experiences of other captains? Did you see the time cops' reactions when Kirk's name is mentioned in Trials and Tribulations? Previous experieces in universe count or should a starship captain not assume that the Romulans may attack from a cloaked position because they've done so in the past?

Sith that work under Palpatine tend to want to get rid of him. That's a inuniverse trend that proves true throughout the movies.

You know what? Throw it all out. Appollo, Trelayne, Landru, fuck all - throw it ALL out.

Is there ANYWHERE in Trek an explanation for Q's abilties?

NO.

Leaving you with absence of evidence to which I states quite frimly and clearly

Technology is more reasonable than magic.

[brianeyci]

Anyway.

"Prove the Q have innate abilities!"

"Prove the Q use technology!"

The best that can be done with the technology argument is to bring up Q weapons (one instance) and say that it is possible to do with upscaled 23rd Century Technology. Yet... we have not seen the Q talk about their technology when alone with each other, or even Q manipulating Q technology other than the Q weapons. And the counter-argument is to say that upscaled 23rd century technology cannot do things like change someone into an amoeba, or travel through time instantaneously.

The best that can be done with the innate ability argument is to say that there are other examples in ST of innate abilities. And the counter-argument is that this is irrelevant because the Q can give away their powers.

Nothing conclusive at all.

Brian

[Stravo]

And greater mental abilities are impossible because...?

Funny that. The innate peopel want to ignore Appollo, Trelayne, Landru, the Devil woman (I really need to find out the episode name), Bhaal (the Apple) But hold on. We have Kess. That means we can extrapolate the shit out of that but fuck you for trying to extrapolate the weightier evidence for tech.

[brianeyci]

Is there ANYWHERE in Trek an explanation for Q's abilties?

NO.

Leaving you with absence of evidence to which I states quite frimly and clearly

Technology is more reasonable than magic.

The Feds have classified the Q as omnipotent, which means that they are not able to explain certain Q feats with their level of technology, or even hypothetically with "upscaled" versions of their own technology.

Brian

[Stravo]

Is there ANYWHERE in Trek an explanation for Q's abilties?

NO.

Leaving you with absence of evidence to which I states quite frimly and clearly

Technology is more reasonable than magic.

The Feds have classified the Q as omnipotent, which means that they are not able to explain certain Q feats with their level of technology, or even hypothetically with "upscaled" versions of their own technology.

Brian

Evidence for that. And by that I mean other than your ass.

[brianeyci]

There is also an episode in VOY where souls were zipping around, taking over people's bodies and firing phasers. Soul is also how Trek sidesteps the transporter cloning argument.

I don't see why Trek has to have a technology argument for everything, just because somebody arbitrarily classifies it as sci-fi. There can be fantastic elements in it, like Q.

Brian