The Q Revisited.

[Batman]

So?

So,
*SNIPPY for length and because, unsurprisingly, it was completely beside the point*
So, the Dowd being able to do this means that perhaps the Q were using telepathy as well.

No, it simply means their forcefield technology is up to the task.

It is premature to assign Q's feat to holograms since we don't know that he actually used holograms.

We know that holograms can do it, we know that Q is a pathological liar, we know he likes to mess with humans, we know the Q use tools.

[brianeyci]

I'm not offering those examples as a for or against argument, is why I care, just throwing them into the circle to ascertain their abilities. Technologically, is their any evidence for instantaneous ability to transport a vessel the size of voyager and all it's crew back 15 billion years, would that really be less energy intensive than throwing them a few thousand light years across space?

No. The crux of the technology argument is that "it is possible to do it with technology"... bullshit, a lot of Q feats can't be done with the technology we've seen, including instantaneous time travel (except maybe with the temporal transporter). A good example is Q taking Data's face. For this to work with technology, Q had to have altered Data's programming so that he wouldn't remember the lapse in time, or the transport into some sort of box or prison. The Borg can't alter Data's programming.

Shrinking them to the size of a quark, instantly- are there any technological comparisons?

No.

But there is a comparison with Kes, who has innate abilities. Kes and Tuvok are going through their mental training, and Kes sees "something beyond the subatomic". Then she starts getting her powers.

Brian

[Batman]

Technologically, is their any evidence for instantaneous ability to transport a vessel the size of voyager and all it's crew back 15 billion years, would that really be less energy intensive than throwing them a few thousand light years across space?

As the energy requirements for BOTH are completely up for grabs, who cares?

[brianeyci]

No, it simply means their forcefield technology is up to the task.

Again you miss the point. Dowd had to use his telepathic abilites, or else the Ent would not have been damaged, 66 crewmembers would not have been injured, and the gigawatts of energy would not have caused Worf to bark like a dog.

We know that holograms can do it, we know that Q is a pathological liar, we know he likes to mess with humans, we know the Q use tools.

That's like saying Riker is wrong about the 275 torpedo figure because he was wrong before. You can't just generalize and say Q will always lie because he has lied before, and where is the proof that Q is a pathological liar? You have to give a reason why Q would lie, or a motive. In the Quinn escapades, there's no reason why Quinn would be lying. In the child escapade, if Q was lying to Janeway, he could not expect her to raise their child, and if he was lying he could have just raped her or taken the DNA and mindwiped her.

Brian

[Jon]

Because you are all comparing their feats to previously observed technology, there is no previously observed technology that can shrink anything at all in Star Trek is there, let alone an entire vessel and it's contents to the subatomic level.

As for throwing them 15 billion years into in almost an instant, with no observable initiation of technology? Any time we have seen Time Travel in Star Trek there has been an observable cause, other than it just happening. Quinn waves his arm and the ship is suddently at the very moment the big bang happened, we see it- so they must also have moved across space, unless the big bang just so happened to originate at the point Voyager was right then, in the Delta Quadrant?

[Batman]

So they can time travel. Indicates innate abilities where? The Feds have done it on numerous occasions.

The Feds have never time travelled like that. They have to do slingshot, or go through a wormhole, not instantaneous travel.

Difference of degree, not principle. Oh, and the Guardian of Forever. The Krenim Timeship. 29th Century Feds. FC Borg. All technology.

Who says he's lying? All that requires is time travel. Doesn't say beans about innate vs technology.

Except technology doesn't exist in the ST universe to do it that way. I believe the argument is that "its possible to do it with technology"...

And it is. Unless you're sying that since Transwarp is way faster than Warp, it can't be technology. Difference of degree, not principle.

bullshit, a lot of Q feats can't be done with the technology we've seen.

Like for example?

As none of the above requires Q abilities to be innate, who cares?

Nor does it require the Q abilities to be technological in nature.

It shows that this is entirely possible.
Brian[/quote]

[Jon]

Time travel and shrinking can both be done with subspace fields, which can be created by warp drives. In the DS9 episode ("One Tiny Ship" I think) a runabout goes into a subspace distortion and shrinks. The Q may have advanced enough warp drives to simulate that effect. Or the Voyager crew might have just misinterpreted their sensor readings. How would they know what it is like to be hit by protons at that size?

Ah, I had forgotten about that episode, indeed.

TUVOK: Captain, based on our readings, it appears that we have been
transported back in time to the birth of the universe.


Janeway looks sharply at Q2 who smiles as he watches the viewscreen...
acknowledging.


Q2: Very old hiding place.

He never actually said they were at the begininning anyways, he just said very old. May be like that place in "Where No One Has Gone Before", but the Vgr vrew didn't know.

IIRC We observe the Big Bang, while Quinn is nodding along to Tuvok saying they are back at the beginning of the universe.

[brianeyci]

And I'm getting tired of the stupid rape arguement. If you could lie to a chick and get what you want instead of forcibly doing rape, which would you do? why waste the energy on rape when he could just lie?

The lie would have to go on for years, as the Q was maturing and Janeway raised their child. It is not just one lie, it would be many lies, holograms of Janeway's crew getting home, etc. Also we know that the Q can have limited mind control at the very least (Vosh getting Riker's hickey) and that Q can mindwipe if the technology argument is to be consistent. There's no reason for Q to lie if he can just take. And, you're forgetting one thing. Janeway said no. Q could have raped after that, and he did not. If you're willing to lie and create a charade that will last years to save your race, you're willing to rape to save your race.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Difference of degree, not principle. Oh, and the Guardian of Forever. The Krenim Timeship. 29th Century Feds. FC Borg. All technology.

No it isn't. Now you're saying that just because we've seen time travel, all time travel can be created by technology. The point is, this specific type of time travel, with no wormhole, no transporter, no energy beam, has not been seen in Trek.

For example, if you make the degree argument, then you'll say that there is technology that exists that can beam the entire universe because there is technology that exists that can beam one man somewhere. Please. Degree does matter, degree can be part of the principle.

Like for example?

Mindwiping/reprogramming Data, for one. At least, the Borg couldn't do it. And the time travel example, for which degree does matter.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

If you're willing to lie and create a charade that will last years to save your race, you're willing to rape to save your race.

Brian

Minor nitpick, but willing to lie to does not mean a more harmful action is just as easily jusifiable. For example, I'd readily lie to save someone's life. Rape is an entirely different matter though. Depends upon the Q's definition and application of morailty of course.

[Stravo]

The Voth could move cities through spavce at transwarp velocities. The Guardian of Forever could instantly transport anything that fit through its portal to any time any where instantly without obvious wormhole effects and the like. Also as an addition to the scale argument, the Guardina was putting out temporal shockwaves that could be felt throughout the Federation hence why the Enterprise was sent to investigate IIRC.

V'Ger was a vessel whose energy field extended 1AU in diamter and had digitized entire worlds and that was a simple construct from a highly advanced machine world. Technology in Trek is king not magic. Are we seriously expected to believe in magic in Trek?

May I point you to the Halloween episode where the Enterprise was encased in crystal and Kirk and Spock were chased by a giant Black Cat? In the end they shattered the witch's TECHNOLOGICAL device in the form of a sceptre and she died.

The Metrons in the Arena when asked by Kirk to open Diplomatic relations state "Perhaps, when you have progressed several thousand more years." Indicating Roddenberry's theme of technological evolution hand in hand with sociological evolution. Gods are consistently revealed as highly advanced beings...but Q...well it's all 'magic'.

[brianeyci]

Minor nitpick, but willing to lie to does not mean a more harmful action is just as easily jusifiable. For example, I'd readily lie to save someone's life. Rape is an entirely different matter though. Depends upon the Q's definition and application of morailty of course.

The Q view sex as a biological function, and clothes as outdated morality. I'm sure they bunch lying to mortals and creating a huge holodeck simulation that lasts years in the same category as raping a mortal, in other words things that you cannot do because of the "Q Prime Directive".

Now if Janeway was willing, and the crew of Voyager was really returned on the other hand, the "Q Prime Directive" might not be as hard to get around if you made the argument that it was a fair exchange.

Brian

[brianeyci]

The Voth could move cities through spavce at transwarp velocities. The Guardian of Forever could instantly transport anything that fit through its portal to nay time any where instantly without obvious wormhole effects and the like. Also as an additon to the scale argument, the Guardina was putting out temporal shockwaves that could be felth throughout the Federation hence why the Enterprise was sent to investigate IIRC.

V'Ger was a vessel whose energy field extended 1AU in diamter and had digitized entire worlds and that was a simple construct from a highly advanced machine world. Technology in Trek is king not magic. Are we seriously expected to believe in magic in Trek?

May I point you to the Halloween episode where the Enterprise was encased in crystal and Kirk and Spock were chased by a giant Black Cat? In the end they shattered the witch's TECHNOLOGICAL device in the form of a sceptre and she died.

The Metrons in the Arena when asked by Kirk to open Diplomatic relations state "Perhaps, when you have progressed several thousand more years." Indicating Roddenberry's theme of technological evolution hand in hand with sociological evolution. Gods are consistently revealed as highly advanced beings...but Q...well it's all 'magic'.

In all these instances, we see the observable implements of technology, and they are explained as technology. I don't see why we should accept the technology argument any more than saying Kes' abilities are all technology (which they are not), since we have no evidence the Q use technology for all of their feats.

Brian

[brianeyci]

About reprogramming Data: the Borg may not have been able to do it, but Dr. Soong could. If the Q have advanced enough technology to time warp and all, then core dumping Data's brain into some backup; uploading a new program to the matrix, then restoring the original backup isn't that hard. Anyways, in what episode does this happen? I don't seem to recall what you're talking about. Unless it is when Q and Data switched places, which would mean Q just looked like Data and beamed the real Data away. What is so hard about that?

If Q beamed the real Data away, Data would have spilled the beans once he came home and said that Q was a charltan. Q was looking like Data for several seconds, so Q had to have erased Data's memory of those seconds.

Also, Soong was able to reprogram Data with Data's consent. After Data was activated, he has active defense systems to prevent reprogramming, much like how Seven installed security protocols into Doctor after he was reprogrammed. It may be that Soong cannot reprogram Data now.

<edit> And if you are wondering why those several seconds matter -- transporter nether realm. </edit>

Brian

[Jon]

EMH: His jaw's been fused and his vocal cords removed. I might be able to undo some of the cosmetic damage, but only Q can restore his voice.

Q2 seals Neelix's mouth shut and removes his vocal chords, no visual intervention other than Q2 saying 'you talk to much'

Q: I think that's long enough. (snaps fingers)
Q2: What was that for!
Q: What's wrong? You didn't enjoy life as an Oprelian amoeba?
Q2: No, I was shapeless and slimy. The only thing to eat was paramecia.
Q: Sounds unpleasant. I'm sure you'll do whatever you can to avoid returning to that petrie dish.
Q2: What are you talking about?
Q: The Continuum and I have come to an agreement about your future. Either you become an upstanding citizen of the cosmos, or you'll be sentenced to eternity as a amoeba. How's that for consequences.
Q2: You'd turn your own son into a microscopic lifeform?

The Q can transform one lifeform into another, can any other technology in Trek do that?

Though another interesting quote from the Q2 episode is:

Q: We've temporarily relieved you of your powers, to ensure that you're on your best behaviour with the Captain.
Q2: You're leaving me here?

but then we hear

Q2: Do you think it's easy to live up to my potential? I was supposed to be the saviour of the Q Continuum. Tell me, how do you save a race that's already omnipotent?

Bad writing I guess

Anwyay, moving on

CHAKOTAY: One of your responsibilities as a Q is to maintain order in the universe, right?
Q2: So I've been told.

PARIS: Steady, ease up a little on the thrusters.
Q2: In case you forgot, I'm mortal now. I'd appreciate it if you didn't fly us into a rock

So relieving them of their 'powers' also makes them fully mortal- thiswould seem to answer my earlier question- they are incapable of dying as Q, while they have their 'powers'

As for technology argument:

Q2: Ordinarily a Q wouldn't demean himself by operating primitive machinery, but these aren't ordinary circumstances.

Note he says 'primitive machinery', hmmm

[brianeyci]

Or they just turned him off for that time. Or had him suspended in some subspace time loop or whatever.

Appeal to technobabble. However Q did it, he had to bypass Data's defenses somehow, or Data would have been aware. Since the technology argument relies on "we've seen it before therefore Q could use technology", we'll have to have seen the subspace time loop created with technology before. Which we haven't.

Any computer defenses can be bypassed by someone with enough know-how.

Yes, but since the technological argument relies on "we've seen it done before with technology", if the technology has not been seen before that can reprogram Data, there's a hole in the technology theory.

You mean that "Realm of Fear" thingy? That wasn't in the TOS transporters. They didn't remember anything from transport unless something was wrong. ("A Piece of the Action" establish that they can't move during transport) By ST II, they could talk during transport, but this was changed again in TNG. The point: there are many different types of transporters. Just because the E-D's transporters work one way doesn't mean all have to. Also, we see the transport cycle get faster and faster as time goes on. Perhaps the Q's are almost instant.

Agreed, but he still needs to bypass Data's defenses.

Brian

[Stravo]

Or they just turned him off for that time. Or had him suspended in some subspace time loop or whatever.

Appeal to technobabble.

Have you been watching Trek lately?

However Q did it, he had to bypass Data's defenses somehow, or Data would have been aware. Since the technology argument relies on "we've seen it before therefore Q could use technology", we'll have to have seen the subspace time loop created with technology before. Which we haven't.

Really?! You mean Scotty was fully aware while suspended on the Janolin in Relics? The Klingon Commander in Day of the Dove was fully aware when he and his landing party were held in suspension? We've seen transporters hold people in suspension several times off the top of my head.

There's no need to bypass anything if Data is held in suspension.

[Jon]

The Q can transform one lifeform into another, can any other technology in Trek do that?

Transporters, replicators. Just the Fed tech can only keep simple things alive (except for the many 'freak' accidents "Second Chances", the one with Pulaski getting wicked old, "Rascals" ALL food replication, the list goes on). The Q would have gotton past this.

How do you know transporters and tech could ever alter a lifeform so radically? Q changes Q2 into a single celled lifeform, from whatever type of higher being he is.

So relieving them of their 'powers' also makes them fully mortal- thiswould seem to answer my earlier question- they are incapable of dying as Q, while they have their 'powers'

He would live with it, die without it.

Same with my heart, eh?

Q2: Ordinarily a Q wouldn't demean himself by operating primitive machinery, but these aren't ordinary circumstances.

Note he says 'primitive machinery', hmmm

Primitive human machinery. Whats your point?

In case you didnt read I said I'm not arguing against or for yet, just looking at the facts, that actually supports your side no? Q says 'primitive' which implies he may use 'advanced' Q machinery.

[brianeyci]

Have you been watching Trek lately?

Actually, no.

Really?! You mean Scotty was fully aware while suspended on the Janolin in Relics? The Klingon Commander in Day of the Dove was fully aware when he and his landing party were held in suspension? We've seen transporters hold people in suspension several times off the top of my head.

There's no need to bypass anything if Data is held in suspension.

Fine. But you can't deny that transporters have had visible effects. Even the Voth transporting Voyager looked like a standard transport. If it is a transporter, it is one funky one.

Brian

[Stravo]

Fine. But you can't deny that transporters have had visible effects. Even the Voth transporting Voyager looked like a standard transport. If it is a transporter, it is one funky one.

Brian

Oh...that's right there's no big flash of light...but wait....

[brianeyci]

Fine. But you can't deny that transporters have had visible effects. Even the Voth transporting Voyager looked like a standard transport. If it is a transporter, it is one funky one.

Brian

Oh...that's right there's no big flash of light...but wait....

I'm not denying that it is impossible for the Q to use transporters, just that it is premature to say anything since we haven't seen a Q transporter before. I don't see how we can conclude that the Q uses technology for all of its feats if we haven't seen the tools the Q use themselves.

The flash of light isn't unique to the Q's teleportation ability, it happens whenever a Q does something.

Brian

[Rogue 9]

And I'm getting tired of the stupid rape arguement. If you could lie to a chick and get what you want instead of forcibly doing rape, which would you do? why waste the energy on rape when he could just lie?

Brian brought this up, but he hasn't followed through on it very well, so I'll take a shot at it.

Because lying to her might get her to have sex with him, but if he did not immediately return the USS Voyager to Earth she would not have followed through on the rest of the deal, i.e. to raise the child. Hell, she might even head down to sickbay and simply have an abortion done. If Q did not follow through, the entire exercise would be for nothing.

[Jon]

How do you know transporters and tech could ever alter a lifeform so radically? Q changes Q2 into a single celled lifeform, from whatever type of higher being he is.

That is a big leap, but still maybe possible. Perhaps they loading his brain into a simulation of an ameoba while simply replicating one under his control.

'maybe possible' indeed, but it also 'maybe possible' that Q do it by some other means.

Same with my heart, eh?

No, more like modern hospitals. They have prolonged out lifespans, the Q just have better 'hospitals', thus longer lifespans. If they were cut off from the rest of the Q, they would lost access to this medical technology and would die more easily.

So by that analogy, the Q must constantly be on Life Support? Quinn says, and we've NO reason to believe he is lying, that the Q are immortal, as Q- why would they need any kind of medical technology? Why couldn't he just deprive himself of access to that medical technology if he wanted to die?

In case you didnt read I said I'm not arguing against or for yet, just looking at the facts, that actually supports your side no? Q says 'primitive' which implies he may use 'advanced' Q machinery.

My error, I misread your post.

NP

[Rogue 9]

Oh for those who scream Q never use technology.

It's funny how humans were weilding Q....*WEAPONS*. So what were those? Even the Lady Q told us that the Supernovas were aftereffect of these WEAPONS.

Right...no Q tech...ever

Strawman.

The Q could well have some ability-enhancing technology; in fact the Q weapons mentioned (not familiar with the events of the Q civil war in the least beyond what I've read here today) suggest that this is so. What they do not do, however, is prove that Q are entirely reliant on technology for their power, any more than the Vulcan psi gun proves that Vulcans owe their psychic abilities to technology.

[Jon]

Because lying to her might get her to have sex with him, but if he did not immediately return the USS Voyager to Earth she would not have followed through on the rest of the deal, i.e. to raise the child. Hell, she might even head down to sickbay and simply have an abortion done. If Q did not follow through, the entire exercise would be for nothing.

And if he raped her, she would not follow through with the deal either, because there would be no deal.

I have little doubts that Q could have brought them home, but it would not be instant or magical. He would just shove them into a transwarp conduit (or whatever Q uses) and a few minutes later, they are home. Remember the "Q Who" push wasn't instant (about 4 seconds IIRC) for the 7k lightyears (or whatever it was). If he could maintain that speed, the trip would be indeed fast.

Quinn takes Voyager back to the moment of the Big Bang. We also observe the big bang happening. Quinn nods when Tuvok says they are at the start of the universe. This means he has the power to transport them 15 billion years through time and move them a distance across space to whereever the big bang originated- unless it happens that Voyager just so happened to be at those coordinates already? You can play with Quinn's words 'very old hiding place' but he nods when Tuvok says it is the start of the universe and says that- which is called agreeing.

He transported them through time and space, vast distances in both, instantly.