zerg vs starship troopers

[brianeyci]

I don't remember that one. Could you refresh me memory as to what game (original or expansion) and what race's campagins?

I believe it is the first movie of the expansion, with the battlecruiser hovering over the trench.

That isn't a way to show their ineffectiveness. Fenix has been fighting for that temple for hours, maybe longer. He was worn out from the constant fighting, so that doen't mean all zealots are shitty fighters.

You're right, just like the stormtrooper armor crack it doesn't mean anything because that could have been a freak equipment malfunction.

Indeed, their shields and their powerful armour lets them close in for the kill.

Fenix's armor doesn't look too impressive, his arms belly and head are exposed.

And their carapace is effective at stopping bullets, to an extent. Moreso, is as you say, there are just so many of them.

Yes, there can just be large hordes of them. Moreover, we know that their carapace is effective at stopping bullets, because there is at least one cutscene of an infested terran running up to a bunker and destroying it. The bunker looks like its made out of metal, and the walls are several inches thick. The infested terran is running straight at some sort of HMG, and isn't slowed down at all by it.

Brian

[Manus Celer Dei]

There was one cutscene with a long trench dug in, and hundreds of zerglings charging the trench. The trench only had a couple of marines, and perhaps a few dozen marines in total if we assume the same density of marines all along the trench. There was a battlecruiser hovering just above the trench. When the battlecruiser started leaving, the marines looked up, and that's when the zerglings started charging as if they knew the marines were distracted.

I don't remember that one. Could you refresh me memory as to what game (original or expansion) and what race's campagins?

It was in the Brood War opening video, I beleive.

Maybe. Or maybe, like cockroaches, Zerg can survive nuclear attacks and whatever the Protoss.

IIRC one of the novels describes the Protoss' method melting the entire planets surface.

[Steven Snyder]

Maybe. Or maybe, like cockroaches, Zerg can survive nuclear attacks and whatever the Protoss.

Or maybe you don't have any evidence to back this up at all.

There was a cut scene of three scourge taking out a Battlecruiser in space. We also know that Guardians can live in space from the cutscene.

You mean the battlecruiser that was designed so poorly that it had no point-defense weapons to take down those stupid little moth-bombs? That "battlecruiser" the one built by the same race who only has one type of capship, the "battlecruiser".

I hardly consider the destruction of such a pathetic vessel any merit to the Zerg. The Bugs from SST had cap ships with real weapons on them, and even they had no problem.

Zerg would ride out orbital bombardments like any artillery strike, dig in. We know that most Zerg ground units can burrow underground.

You do realize they have burrowing nukes?

The attack on Klendathu was to establish a beachhead, not to capture a brain bug. So all of the burrowing and whatnot of the Zerg is pretty damned worthless, because if they hide in the ground they can't stop the MI from establishing their landing zone.

[brianeyci]

Or maybe you don't have any evidence to back this up at all.

Fine. But a race that can bioengineer spacefaring organic vessels should have impressive radiation resistance in their ground forces.

You mean the battlecruiser that was designed so poorly that it had no point-defense weapons to take down those stupid little moth-bombs? That "battlecruiser" the one built by the same race who only has one type of capship, the "battlecruiser".

I hardly consider the destruction of such a pathetic vessel any merit to the Zerg. The Bugs from SST had cap ships with real weapons on them, and even they had no problem.

The battlecruiser was going unescorted. We know there are wraiths and valkryries, which we don't see very much of. Norad II probably got separated from its escort for some reason. And no point defense weapons? We didn't see any firing, but that doesn't mean they don't have any. They could have all been disabled by the Guardians we saw in the cutscene. In the cutscene with a battlecruiser hovering over the trench (first movie, expansion), we see it fire a small missile that homes in and takes out a Zergling.

Also the battlecruiser could have been designed to fight other battlecruisers. Lack of point defense weapons may mean that the battlecruiser is meant to be escorted by fighters at all times, or that the battlecruiser is immune to fighter weapons and did not expect kamikaze explosives. DSI is no less a powerful battlestation because it was designed around a large-scale assault rather than tightly defended by point-defense cannons.

And, we've seen an infested terran blow up a bunker. The bunker was made of metal, and at least several inches thick. This is from a cutscene. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Terran Battlecruisers have any less armor than this. For three scourge to cause a hull breach sufficient to bring a Battlecruiser this heavily armored, they are not something to be trifled with.

You do realize they have burrowing nukes?

The attack on Klendathu was to establish a beachhead, not to capture a brain bug. So all of the burrowing and whatnot of the Zerg is pretty damned worthless, because if they hide in the ground they can't stop the MI from establishing their landing zone.

Nukes are not a sure thing man. Its telling that the Protoss have to resort to melting the planet's surface to destroy Zerg infestations.

Brian

[mauldooku]

In the cutscene with a battlecruiser hovering over the trench (first movie, expansion), we see it fire a small missile that homes in and takes out a Zergling.

Um...no, that was the marine behind the first marine. You know...the one with the Grenade Launcher?

[Stofsk]

Um...no, that was the marine behind the first marine. You know...the one with the Grenade Launcher?

It looked like a rocket with minute tracking abilities (I seem to recall it turned to swerve into the zergling). Rocket-propelled grenade?

[mauldooku]

Um...no, that was the marine behind the first marine. You know...the one with the Grenade Launcher?

It looked like a rocket with minute tracking abilities (I seem to recall it turned to swerve into the zergling). Rocket-propelled grenade?

Well, it was some weird RPG thing. Whatever. We see the marine's gun smoking afterwards, plus an early concept design for marines had them carrying grenade launchers as a special ability, IIRC.

[Stofsk]

You mean the battlecruiser that was designed so poorly that it had no point-defense weapons to take down those stupid little moth-bombs?

You mean that you can actually use point defence LASERS to defeat other LASERS? Wow, that's fascinating.

Why exactly are they going to have point defence against a light-speed weapon made up of energy? How would be a better a question.

That "battlecruiser" the one built by the same race who only has one type of capship, the "battlecruiser".

Manual mentions larger gunships. There's the valkyrie, but then that's UED.

[Stofsk]

Well, it was some weird RPG thing. Whatever. We see the marine's gun smoking afterwards, plus an early concept design for marines had them carrying grenade launchers as a special ability, IIRC.

That would have been cooler than stimpacks.

[mauldooku]

Well, it was some weird RPG thing. Whatever. We see the marine's gun smoking afterwards, plus an early concept design for marines had them carrying grenade launchers as a special ability, IIRC.

That would have been cooler than stimpacks.

You can always mod Starcraft to give Marines the Vulture grenade launcher as their primary attack

[Stofsk]

You can always mod Starcraft to give Marines the Vulture grenade launcher as their primary attack

I prefer the Medic's idea for 'optical flare', so that if I used a marine like that it will cost 50 energy. At least then there's a limit to his weapon.

[brianeyci]

I prefer the Medic's idea for 'optical flare', so that if I used a marine like that it will cost 50 energy. At least then there's a limit to his weapon.

Too much micro, 50 energy for a useless ability is worthless, if there's even one unit around that is not blinded the rest will have sight and be able to shoot. Unless there is "auto-casting" like WC3.

Brian

[mauldooku]

I prefer the Medic's idea for 'optical flare', so that if I used a marine like that it will cost 50 energy. At least then there's a limit to his weapon.

Too much micro, 50 energy for a useless ability is worthless, if there's even one unit around that is not blinded the rest will have sight and be able to shoot. Unless there is "auto-casting" like WC3.

Brian

I think he meant make the Grenade Launcher a spell as opposed to a primary weapon. Would it be ludicrously micro intensive, still? Yeah, probably.

And Optical Flare isn't *entirely* useless. There's always that replay of Boxer blinding Didi's 6 Observers with 7 Medics, and then sending in his 10 Wraiths against 20 Carriers and killing a quarter of them before Didi could retreat to his cannons, not losing a single Wraith in the process....

And since when did this turn into Starcraft strategy corner, anyway?

[brianeyci]

I think he meant make the Grenade Launcher a spell as opposed to a primary weapon. Would it be ludicrously micro intensive, still? Yeah, probably.

Just give the damn Koreans another weapon to use.

And Optical Flare isn't *entirely* useless. There's always that replay of Boxer blinding Didi's 6 Observers with 7 Medics, and then sending in his 10 Wraiths against 20 Carriers and killing a quarter of them before Didi could retreat to his cannons, not losing a single Wraith in the process....

That's awesome, I've seen one when 9 ghost lockdown a shitload of carrier and wraiths come in and kill off all the carriers. Haven't seen too many though.

And since when did this turn into Starcraft strategy corner, anyway?

Since now .

Brian

[SylasGaunt]

You mean that you can actually use point defence LASERS to defeat other LASERS? Wow, that's fascinating.

Why exactly are they going to have point defence against a light-speed weapon made up of energy? How would be a better a question.

If you give it another read I think you'll find he was most likely referring to the lack of PD fire against the scourges that took out hte Norad II.. I certainly can't think of any reason to refer to a laser as a 'moth-bomb'.

[Stofsk]

Think about it.

The Battlecruiser's main weapon is a laser... it's expected opponents are...?

[SylasGaunt]

Unknown since it's all confed gear and I somehow doubt they built their battlecruiser to fight itself.

PD lasers for use against fighters might be a bit of a help though. Or to help defend against missile turrets (since BCs can and do go low enough to be engaged by them in the novels).

[Stofsk]

Unknown since it's all confed gear and I somehow doubt they built their battlecruiser to fight itself.

That's precisely what the BC was built to fight: other Battlecruisers.

The HMS Dreadnought had a huge gun. But HMS Dreadnought and other battleships could be sunk for smaller ships with torpedoes that struck below the waterline.

Even then a defence was developed (escort destroyers). So when the Terran Confed and UED use BCs, with weapons to be used against OTHER BCs, I don't buy it that it's a stupid design. Then, when Wraith's are developed a new counter is planned, missile gunboats (Valkyrie). But before they can be implemented the Zerg invade. Valkyries fucking own the skies when combined with BCs or Wraiths. But the BCs themselves are likely too expensive to upgrade. It would be better to develop a new class of BC. But then Kerrigan triumphed so the SC world is fucked.

PD lasers for use against fighters might be a bit of a help though.

Wraith Fighters were a recent invention in the SC universe. Cloaking technology only made them more effective, and were not common in the SC world prior to the Terran Campaign (and you constantly have to upgrade all standard Wraiths with this function).

Or to help defend against missile turrets (since BCs can and do go low enough to be engaged by them in the novels).

The BC doesn't need PD lasers to destroy something they can shoot at range with the Yamato cannon.

[Steven Snyder]

The HMS Dreadnought had a huge gun. But HMS Dreadnought and other battleships could be sunk for smaller ships with torpedoes that struck below the waterline.

The Dreadnought was built before attack aircraft were developed, thus before the need for point-defense weapons. Your analogy does not hold.

Even then a defence was developed (escort destroyers). So when the Terran Confed and UED use BCs, with weapons to be used against OTHER BCs, I don't buy it that it's a stupid design. Then, when Wraith's are developed a new counter is planned, missile gunboats (Valkyrie). But before they can be implemented the Zerg invade. Valkyries fucking own the skies when combined with BCs or Wraiths. But the BCs themselves are likely too expensive to upgrade. It would be better to develop a new class of BC. But then Kerrigan triumphed so the SC world is fucked.

So your telling me that there were no space-based attack fighters before the Wraith, that they actually developed HUGE battlecruisers before small strike craft?

Wraith Fighters were a recent invention in the SC universe. Cloaking technology only made them more effective, and were not common in the SC world prior to the Terran Campaign (and you constantly have to upgrade all standard Wraiths with this function).

Can you please provide evidence that Battlecruisers existed before fighter-sized small attack craft.

You also don't explain how a Battlecruiser is supposed to defend itself against missile strikes.

The BC doesn't need PD lasers to destroy something they can shoot at range with the Yamato cannon.

Are you serious?

[Stofsk]

The Dreadnought was built before attack aircraft were developed, thus before the need for point-defense weapons. Your analogy does not hold.

Since in space the analogy is apt, I find this rebuttal to be... lacking. And no, Wraiths are not analogous to aircraft when the BC is a dreadnought... since the difference between navy and air force is obvious to all. But they are analogous to smaller ships, like a torpedo boat.

So your telling me that there were no space-based attack fighters before the Wraith, that they actually developed HUGE battlecruisers before small strike craft?

Absolutely. Manned small strike craft is STUPID in space, whereas big battlecruisers make more sense. Realisically small, missile boats make the most sense... and guess which Terran flying unit falls into that role?

Can you please provide evidence that Battlecruisers existed before fighter-sized small attack craft.

It's in the manual. In the fluff section for Wraiths. I don't know where my manual is so I can't quote it in detail or refer the page number. Badme, help.

You also don't explain how a Battlecruiser is supposed to defend itself against missile strikes.

Going by game mechanics, no need - missiles from terran missile sites are pathetic.

Going by cinematics - not shown, therefore impossible to comment on the effectiveness or not of the lack of a PD.

Are you serious?

Actually no, game mechanics ought to be thrown out the window. Cinematics don't show anything.

[Siege]

When the Protoss torched Mar Sara (I think it was that one), nothing survived on the surface. Same with that other planet (Antiga? Or something like it). The problem with the Zerg just seems to be that they spread so damn fast, not that they can't be exterminated. A single drone dropping anywhere could (probably) start up a hive on some backwater part of the planet in no time at all.

Terran Marine weapons fire 8mm metal spikes at "hypersonic speed" (quoting the manual from the top of my head here so might be slightly off). If we go by the BroodWar opening, a Zergling took several of those spikes in the face at point-blank range and it just got annoyed. I don't know about SST weapons, but man, that carapace has got to be one tough mother to crack.

Additionally, Firebats use plasma-based perdition flamethrowers. Again, I don't know about these SST flamers, but well, I don't think it gets much hotter than plasma (assuming they mean the sun-type stuff of course). Then again, this isn't about SST marines vs. SC marines.

The only thing I currently think the SST marines have going for them is their tac-nuke weapons, because they were abolished in the SC universe after the Confederation blew the living hell out of Korhal with their Apocalypse-class nuclear missiles. Consequently there are barely any nukes used aside from those targeted by Ghosts, which are (IMO) just tac-nukes of themselves. Well, those and the implied Cold Fusion nuclear bomb they carried onto that science vessel in that one cutscene. That bomb blew up a station which I think could be sizewise-compared with DS9...

Oh and then there's that little problem with Zerg, or at least their Cerebrates and the Overmind, being only actually killable by someone wielding Dark Templar energies, which I don't think the SST marines are really capable of. But then again, who knows what happens if you just kill all the little buggers instead...

[brianeyci]

If we assume that a missile from a Terran missile site is at least as powerful as the missile shot from the Terran Siege Tank at the Dragoon, then we know the missile is armor piercing and at least has that yield. Not pathetic at all.

Brian

[Steven Snyder]

So we are at a situation where the cinematics don't show enough and the game mechanics are worthless, as they should be, to us.

I stand by my statement, the Bugs from SST are a highly numerous species and have a significant amount of technology. They were tough, had guns, starships, sharp sticks, knives..etc etc etc. The Zerg a carbon-copy of them.

[Siege]

Are there any numbers on the SST bugs? Zerg are supposed to number in the billions per brood, excluding the 'spec-ops' broods like (I think) Tiamat.

[Steven Snyder]

The worker bugs outnumbered the warrior bugs by a ratio of 50:1. The SST were outnumbered by the warriors by "the thousands".