Question about Riker in Nemesis

[brianeyci]

Chris and I would have preferred if Nog had assumed command.

Yeah the idea of Nog worshipping a bunch of cadets, no matter how good they are supposed to be, was unsettling. Nog didn't seem mature enough to "assume command" of anything though, and has never been portrayed as someone with command skills. Nevertheless, that idea is interesting.

Brian

[Alyeska]

Chris and I would have preferred if Nog had assumed command.

Yeah the idea of Nog worshipping a bunch of cadets, no matter how good they are supposed to be, was unsettling. Nog didn't seem mature enough to "assume command" of anything though, and has never been portrayed as someone with command skills. Nevertheless, that idea is interesting.

Brian

This episode would have been the perfect situation for Nog to grow in his character. Watch his real life experiences shatter his accademy preconceptions about Red Squad and then have him save the day by relieving that jackass cadet/captain and take command and retreat to safety.

[Tommy J]

Actually I don't blame Riker for the implant not being discovered. If anyone is to blame it's Dr. Crusher for not performing a complete physical.

Many people here don't think the implant is what led to the destruction of the E-D. I agree with them. The implant helped the BoP cause fatal damage to the E-D BUT it was Rikers incompetence that allowed the damage to get that far.

The fact that Riker only ordered phasers to fire ONCE and then the one torpedo that destroyed the BoP.

Answer et al. This is Monday Morning Quarterbacking at its worst. Everyone seems like a bunch of middle aged men asking why the receiver missed that pass or why the quarterback didn't throw that hail mary.

How many outstanding generals in hindsight have made some stupid decisions we can later go back to:

Sherman
McArthur
Eisenhower


All of which I can site battles in which they made some dumb decisions looking back at them.

The point is:

a. He didn't know that Jordi had a listening/viewing device implanted

b. Jordi was examined by the Cheif Medical Officer after being interogated by a hostile enemy and deemed fit for duty.

c. The acquisition of the sheild freq. was the LEAST likely reason for the failure AT THAT MOMENT until it became apparent they had done so.

d. Any competent commander would try to the crisis by protecting lives.

e. After ascertaining the threat he made the most comptent decisions anyone would have in a crisis situation.

[Stofsk]

All of which I can site battles in which they made some dumb decisions looking back at them.

Yes, and they were dumb for making those decisions, if the case study SHOWS they were acting dumb (and not, say, having rotten luck or a bad day). We analyse what Riker did in Gen, and we can say unequivocally that he was a dumbass.

a. He didn't know that Jordi had a listening/viewing device implanted

When one of your guys get's taken hostage and interrogated/tortured, it ought to be SoP to consider that man compromised. For pity's sake, he should be put off-duty ANYWAY, to give him a chance to recover. Frankly it is stunning he was thrown back on duty as soon as he was released. Geordi should have been given compassionate leave the second he got back onto the E-D. He should be debriefed as well, to find out what he experienced over on the Klingon ship. He should go through rigourous screening as well. That would have uncovered the spy device.

b. Jordi was examined by the Cheif Medical Officer after being interogated by a hostile enemy and deemed fit for duty.

Beverly Crusher's incompetence as a physician and the E-D's CMO does not exonerate Riker's ineptitude as the acting CO and XO of the same ship, it's his DUTY to take care of the crew. As is Beverly's. They both screwed up, but Crusher's screw up is a red herring.

c. The acquisition of the sheild freq. was the LEAST likely reason for the failure AT THAT MOMENT until it became apparent they had done so.

"They're punching through our shields!"

The most obvious answer is that the shield frequency has been compromised. Solution?

1. Rotate the shield frequency. BOBW displayed this capability against the fucking BORG CUBE, a little pissant Klingon BoP is gonna be PEANUTS in comparison.

2. Alpha strike. As Aly said, kiss your ass goodnight Duras Bitches. Simply put, even if you DON'T rotate the frequency, destroying the ship is what you have to do ANYWAY.

d. Any competent commander would try to the crisis by protecting lives.

And how did Riker respond to this crisis? By TURNING AWAY, and giving the BoP gunners every opportunity to fling green blobs of doom at the E-D's engineering section. A lot of people would have died. If he wanted some room to maneouver, he should have accelerated towards the BoP, as Patrick Degan suggested. It plays to the E-D's strengths.

Finally, he had the arsenal of a galaxy class starship at his disposal, and there were millions of people counting on him on Veridian 3. Not to mention the 1000 people onboard his own vessel. He failed them, pure and simple.

e. After ascertaining the threat he made the most comptent decisions anyone would have in a crisis situation.

Incorrect. He made stupid decisions, and they ended up costing lives and if not for the Nexus it would have costed billions of lives.

He was a bonehead. Get a grip.

[Tommy J]

Dump Decisions by Military Commanders:

Pearl Harbor. In the weeks preceding the Pearl Harbor attack, military commanders were fed a steady stream of information about Japan's preparations for attack - somewhere. Then military intelligence lost contact with Japanese fleet. Air reconnaissance could have spotted the carriers, but the complacent commanders decided against such precautions.

Bay of Pigs. In 1961, some of the most respected leaders in America's history unanimously undertook a disastrous policy. These men decided to send 1,400 CIA-trained Cuban exiles to Cuba with the intent of overthrowing the Castro regime. Within 3 days, Castro's forces, crushed the attack, capturing 1,200 of the exiles and killing most of the others. (Two years later, the U.S. ransomed the hostages for $53 million in food and medicine). Kennedy asked, "How could we have been so stupid." Among the mistakes:

(a) assumed no one would find out the U.S. was involved. Overlooked the fact that 1,400 rebels knew, lots of foreign countries knew. Stories about a possible invasion appeared in newspapers a week in advance!

(b) Thought that, if worst came to worst, rebels could retreat to the mountains and join the guerrillas there. If anyone had bothered to look at a map, they'd have seen the mountains were 80 miles away, with lots of swamp in between.

(c) Assumed Cuban military forces were too weak - even though Castro had 200,000 men to the U.S.'s 1,400.

Vietnam. From 1964 to 1967 Johnson escalated the Vietnam war on the assumption that U.S. aerial bombardment was likely to bring N. Vietnam to the peace table. This was done despite warnings from gov. intelligence experts as well as from leaders of nearly all US allies


So, was Kennedy, Johnson, and Roosevelt all 'DUMB ASSES AS WELL'?

[Stofsk]

So, was Kennedy, Johnson, and Roosevelt all 'DUMB ASSES AS WELL'?

Red herring.

We're talking about fucking RIKER numbnuts, not JFK, Roosevelt or Johnson. And yes, if the decisions leading up to those disastrous events can be laid onto their SOLE SHOULDERS, which they can't, but don't let that get in the way... then YES they would be dumbasses, dumbass.

[Tommy J]

Yes, and they were dumb for making those decisions, if the case study SHOWS they were acting dumb (and not, say, having rotten luck or a bad day). We analyse what Riker did in Gen, and we can say unequivocally that he was a dumbass.

Not everyone is a dumbass. Playing a monday morning quarterback isn't fair. And by most accounts Roosevelt was no dumbass for missing pearl harbor despite obvious indications like with Riker

When one of your guys get's taken hostage and interrogated/tortured, it ought to be SoP to consider that man compromised. For pity's sake, he should be put off-duty ANYWAY, to give him a chance to recover. Frankly it is stunning he was thrown back on duty as soon as he was released. Geordi should have been given compassionate leave the second he got back onto the E-D. He should be debriefed as well, to find out what he experienced over on the Klingon ship. He should go through rigourous screening as well. That would have uncovered the spy device.

one trusts the Cheif Medical Officer. Also remember they were in a crisis situation and needed their cheif engineer.

Beverly Crusher's incompetence as a physician and the E-D's CMO does not exonerate Riker's ineptitude as the acting CO and XO of the same ship, it's his DUTY to take care of the crew. As is Beverly's. They both screwed up, but Crusher's screw up is a red herring.

It's not a red herring. XO and CO rely on the comptenance of all their subordinates especially in a crisis.

"They're punching through our shields!"

how many different anamolous problems did see see in the 7 years of Trek. Too many to count. Why would he assume they'd acquired the shield freq with an inferior PoP

And how did Riker respond to this crisis? By TURNING AWAY, and giving the BoP gunners every opportunity to fling green blobs of doom at the E-D's engineering section. A lot of people would have died. If he wanted some room to maneouver, he should have accelerated towards the BoP, as Patrick Degan suggested. It plays to the E-D's strengths.

sometimes to retreat and re-group is a better solution. Regardless he made a judgement call

[Tommy J]

So, was Kennedy, Johnson, and Roosevelt all 'DUMB ASSES AS WELL'?

Red herring.

We're talking about fucking RIKER numbnuts, not JFK, Roosevelt or Johnson. And yes, if the decisions leading up to those disastrous events can be laid onto their SOLE SHOULDERS, which they can't, but don't let that get in the way... then YES they would be dumbasses, dumbass.

We're talking about Military Commanders who make dumb or not so dumb decisions in crisis situations.

The examples are relevant because Riker was making decisions that were making judgement on in hindsight.

[Ghost Rider]

So, was Kennedy, Johnson, and Roosevelt all 'DUMB ASSES AS WELL'?

Red herring.

We're talking about fucking RIKER numbnuts, not JFK, Roosevelt or Johnson. And yes, if the decisions leading up to those disastrous events can be laid onto their SOLE SHOULDERS, which they can't, but don't let that get in the way... then YES they would be dumbasses, dumbass.

We're talking about Military Commanders who make dumb or not so dumb decisions in crisis situations.

The examples are relevant because Riker was making decisions that were making judgement on in hindsight.

You do understand you are confirming his red herring point, right?

Were they the personal commanders at The Bay of Pigs and Pearl Harbor, dumbfuck?

Grasp how to actually refute and you may just learn something beyond screaming and whining.

[Stofsk]

Not everyone is a dumbass. Playing a monday morning quarterback isn't fair. And by most accounts Roosevelt was no dumbass for missing pearl harbor despite obvious indications like with Riker

Was Roosevelt in charge AT PEARL HARBOUR? No, hence why it's a RED HERRING.

one trusts the Cheif Medical Officer. Also remember they were in a crisis situation and needed their cheif engineer.

They have a staff of engineers. He was a hostage, and was likely tortured. It is SoP to debrief someone who's been through that and to give them mandatory compassionate leave.

But then, this is an organisation that throws kids on the frontlines. My mistake.

It's not a red herring. XO and CO rely on the comptenance of all their subordinates especially in a crisis.

The fuck it isn't. We're discussing Riker's competence as a STARSHIP CAPTAIN, you brought in CMO Crusher in an attempt to exonerate Riker's abysmal performance.

how many different anamolous problems did see see in the 7 years of Trek. Too many to count. Why would he assume they'd acquired the shield freq with an inferior PoP

I love how you dismiss 1, and completely ignore 2.

sometimes to retreat and re-group is a better solution. Regardless he made a judgement call

No shit. Nice judgement he displayed. By firing up the engines right at the BoP, you close the distance and prevent the gunners from getting your range, while at the same time accelerating at top speed away from the antagonist.

Or fuck me. You could try to return fire and destroy the ship. But that would be breathtakingly rational...

[Stofsk]

We're talking about Military Commanders who make dumb or not so dumb decisions in crisis situations.

Ah! So JFK, Roosevelt, and Johnson were all three of them field commanders who had tactical responsibility? No? Holy shit batman! That sounds like a FUCKING RED HERRING to me.

The examples are relevant because Riker was making decisions that were making judgement on in hindsight.

No they're IRRELEVANT because those examples you cited are HoS of a country and that deals with strategic concerns, not tactics. They're NOT military commanders; Riker *is*. They DO NOT have responsibility on the tactical level for a unit's or ship's survival; Riker *did*.

[CaptJodan]

e. After ascertaining the threat he made the most comptent decisions anyone would have in a crisis situation.

You really have got to be kidding me. I sat in the theater...when was 14 or 15 years old wishing I could scream at the screen to have them do an Alpha Strike....but no.

There's a number 5 to all the rest of his mistakes, as well. Even after failing to order an Alpha Strike and turning the wrong way in the battle to give every advantage to the BOP, he CONTINUES not to return fire. He has, what....at the very least about 4 phaser strips...possibly more in the aft dorsal side he could have let loose as cover fire? Not to mention an aft torpedo tube which has shown a far greater rate of fire than that single torpedo fired in the entire sequence. Any one of these could have probably severely damaged if not destroyed outright the 20 year old BOP which, let's face it, didn't exactly have a very impressive refire rate. (not the likes of what we've seen in DS9 with it's disruptors)

Riker's performance was beyond incompetent to say the least. He has no excuse for that incopetence. He knows what the capabilities of the Enterprise is, he ordered one of the two Alpha Strikes against the "fake" vessel protecting Kevin Uxbridge. It takes two seconds to order Worf to continue fire as he turns tail (which was a mistake anyway) to run while he continues talking about his convoluted plan, but he does none of this. Clearly, almost anyone in that situation could have done better than Riker.

[Alyeska]

How many outstanding generals in hindsight have made some stupid decisions we can later go back to:

Sherman
McArthur
Eisenhower


All of which I can site battles in which they made some dumb decisions looking back at them.

This is a Red Herring. These are Generals, not line commanders. Even still, these generals tend to make the occasional mistake. Riker made mistake after mistake and they continued to compound. And had Riker not made just one of those mistakes, things could have turned out much better.

The point is:

a. He didn't know that Jordi had a listening/viewing device implanted

Irrelevent. Geordi (spell his name right) was in enemy hands and it should be assumed they tortured him for information or used truth drugs on him. Geordi should have been relieved from duty pending a full investigation.

b. Jordi was examined by the Cheif Medical Officer after being interogated by a hostile enemy and deemed fit for duty.

Irrelevent.

c. The acquisition of the sheild freq. was the LEAST likely reason for the failure AT THAT MOMENT until it became apparent they had done so.

Irrelevent. To penetrate through the shields with Klingon weapons requires the frequency. The most obvious solution is to change frequencies. This doesn't take much time and the ship was already equiped to do so. This still remains a massive point against Riker.

d. Any competent commander would try to the crisis by protecting lives.

Riker failed miserably.

e. After ascertaining the threat he made the most comptent decisions anyone would have in a crisis situation.

Incorrect. Riker should have done two things imediately upon being fired upon. He could have done them in any order. Fire all weapons on the BOP until it is destroyed. Rotate shield frequencies. These are the most BASIC things Riker could have done AND damned well knew how to do, yet he didn't. Riker didn't show competence, he showed gross incompetence and should have been stripped of his command and court martialed for this failure.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Not everyone is a dumbass. Playing a monday morning quarterback isn't fair. And by most accounts Roosevelt was no dumbass for missing pearl harbor despite obvious indications like with Riker

You're totally missing what made Riker extremely incompetent, I mean to the point that anyone could have done better. (Ordering all weapons to fire would have been a good start) The fact that he only ordered phasers fired ONCE in that entire engagement despite having the BoP go through multiple phaser arcs. He only ordered torpedoes fired AFTER they had devised their technobable plan.

sometimes to retreat and re-group is a better solution. Regardless he made a judgement call

Another stupid decision. Trying to retreat and regroup against an enemy that can fly circles around you.

[Imperial Overlord]

This is the deal. The writing sucks. Hard cores Trekkies, deal with it.

Riker is suppossed to be an excellent tactitian. As written, he sucks.

Klingons are suppossed to be really good at war. As written, they're a joke. I have to deal with it.

The Borg as suppossed to be scary uber-boogie men. As written, they're morons. Walper has to deal with it.

There isn't anyway to redeem Riker's performance in Generations. The whole movie is crap. Just accept it and blame the hacks.

[Robert Walper]

The Borg as suppossed to be scary uber-boogie men. As written, they're morons. Walper has to deal with it.

But, they're...not....aw, never mind.

[Petrosjko]

On a side note, Star Trek's habit of returning people to their position immediately after being brainwashed/possessed/tortured/assimilated is stunningly stupid.

[Tommy J]

This is the deal. The writing sucks. Hard cores Trekkies, deal with it.

Riker is suppossed to be an excellent tactitian. As written, he sucks.

Klingons are suppossed to be really good at war. As written, they're a joke. I have to deal with it.

The Borg as suppossed to be scary uber-boogie men. As written, they're morons. Walper has to deal with it.

There isn't anyway to redeem Riker's performance in Generations. The whole movie is crap. Just accept it and blame the hacks.

Besides if Riker didn't suck as a tactican in Generations, they couldn't have added in the kewl saucer section crash scene.

[Imperial Overlord]

If they wanted to toast the Enterprise, giving the Duros sisters more than one BOP would have worked nicely.

[Petrosjko]

For some reason they just wussed out the Enterprise in the movies. I remember watching Insurrection and thinking 'What the fuck. These aliens we've never heard of can just pound the Ent-E so badly they don't even think of standing to fight?'

Of course, I guess a stand-up fight with realistic tactics doesn't sound as kewl as pulling some 'explosive space gas' wankery out of your ass to the writers.

[Tommy J]

On a side note, Star Trek's habit of returning people to their position immediately after being brainwashed/possessed/tortured/assimilated is stunningly stupid.

It's amazingly stupid and in real life no intelligent commander would do such.

But when you have main characters that are written into life threatening situations for dramatic effect constantly week after week, how would you as the writer pull them back into the storyline?

[Imperial Overlord]

At least they had Picard out of the loop for bit after being assimilated (lame family farm episode).

Hmmm. I'm getting an idea for a fan fic.

[Petrosjko]

It's amazingly stupid and in real life no intelligent commander would do such.

But when you have main characters that are written into life threatening situations for dramatic effect constantly week after week, how would you as the writer pull them back into the storyline?

The plausbility of keeping a crew assembled in the fashion of TNG stretches the SoD pretty badly to begin with. Under normal circumstances there would be promotions, rotations, you name it.

I understand that can't be done under the constraints of a TV show, but they could ameliorate the problem by not having so many episodes based on those themes.

For example, Picard should've been yanked back to SFC immediately after BoBW. Especially if as posited in STFC that they didn't consider him reliable for engaging the Borg, there is no sane reason why he should be left in command of the flagship that engages in lots of frontier missions and semi-regularly encounters the Borg. Furthermore, his insider knowledge of the Borg would be far more useful in training and planning than having him jockeying a starship. He could save billions of lives by taking an advisory position.

[Tommy J]

It's amazingly stupid and in real life no intelligent commander would do such.

But when you have main characters that are written into life threatening situations for dramatic effect constantly week after week, how would you as the writer pull them back into the storyline?

The plausbility of keeping a crew assembled in the fashion of TNG stretches the SoD pretty badly to begin with. Under normal circumstances there would be promotions, rotations, you name it.

I always thought that they should have killed off characters, been promoted, wounded, retired etc. It would have been far more realistic.

The TV show Law and Order has proven that audiences will now accept a rotation of main characters (some new) seasonaly w/o losing ratings. The asterik to that of course has to be good writing and compelling stories.

[brianeyci]

Ah, TommyJ, I don't see how you can find good excuses for Riker, trust me if it could have been done I would have done it already (like I said a few posts back). Riker is an idiot, no way around it unless you violate parsimony. You should just concede the point before the thread turns into flames.

Brian