Battle of the ST Omnipotent

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-20 02:56pm

Tommy J wrote:He said he killed them because he got angry. Obviously a power enough being to eridacate a species by thinking about it could choose alternatives. (if you got angry with me and chose to shoot me instead of flattening my tires wouldn't it be the same?)

'He killed them because he got angry' therefore 'He can wipe them out by thninking of it'? Your grasp of logical deduction is apparently non-existant.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-20 03:03pm

Tommy J wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Did anyone else notice that the story of the Doud requires that he be incapable of stopping the Husnock in any way other than killing them? He couldn't just disable their weapons, shut down their power core, etc? He had to sit there and do nothing because he will not kill, while everyone around him died and the entire planet was BDZ'd, in an operation that must have taken more than enough time for him to recognize what was happening?

Something about his story doesn't add up.
He said he killed them because he got angry. Obviously a power enough being to eridacate a species by thinking about it could choose alternatives. (if you got angry with me and chose to shoot me instead of flattening my tires wouldn't it be the same?)

Look up "circular logic fallacy", please.

Regarding your point about omnipotence, I think it a relative term rather than looking at the strict definiton.

We would be 'omnipotent' to someone who lived in the 16th century. We might perhaps as a timer traveler (if one was arrogant) claim such.

In the book Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs Ct, the character was viewed as such even though we know better. The Q's claim to 'omnipotence' is a relative claim.

Um, no. "Powerful" is a relative term. "Omnipotent" is an absolute term.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-20 03:42pm

am viewing the Dowd as being like the Talosians from "The Cage": he makes them perceive the things that aren't there. He needs not trick starship sensors, only the person reading the display. As for wiping out the race, that could be done by tricking them into sucicide. Why he wouldn't just use this power to trick the Husnok navigators or gunners is beyond me though.

He didn't think of it? Of course this thoery has the side effect of making him an idiot, or at least slow minded. Of course we have to ask ourselves if there is really any evidence for him not being a idiot or slow.

Tommy J · Post by **Tommy J** » 2004-12-20 03:59pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Tommy J wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Did anyone else notice that the story of the Doud requires that he be incapable of stopping the Husnock in any way other than killing them? He couldn't just disable their weapons, shut down their power core, etc? He had to sit there and do nothing because he will not kill, while everyone around him died and the entire planet was BDZ'd, in an operation that must have taken more than enough time for him to recognize what was happening?

Something about his story doesn't add up.

Fair enough and looked Circular Logic up. Let me put it a different way. Have you ever gotten angry with your wife and over-reacted and couldn't reverse your already committed behavior? Most everyone has done so with a spouse.

Albiet his over-reaction killed a species, which is an extreme. The way it 'adds up' in my mind is that he was regretful of his actions (over reaction) and isn't powerful enough to reverse the deaths. Thus the Dowd aren't omnipotent but very powerful, but like the Q have limits to their power.

I concede the point, Omnipotent is a absolute term. The writers on ST have been sloppy in the use of it.

(an interesting aside, the Emperor vs. the Q, that would be an interesting match-up) Would the force be powerful enough to over-come the powers of the Q?

Tommy J · Post by **Tommy J** » 2004-12-20 04:07pm

SirNitram wrote:
Tommy J wrote:He said he killed them because he got angry. Obviously a power enough being to eridacate a species by thinking about it could choose alternatives. (if you got angry with me and chose to shoot me instead of flattening my tires wouldn't it be the same?)
'He killed them because he got angry' therefore 'He can wipe them out by thninking of it'? Your grasp of logical deduction is apparently non-existant.

The ST writers were the one that put that dialogue in the episode, not I. So before you jump down my throat about it, speak with them.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-20 04:11pm

Tommy J wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Tommy J wrote:He said he killed them because he got angry. Obviously a power enough being to eridacate a species by thinking about it could choose alternatives. (if you got angry with me and chose to shoot me instead of flattening my tires wouldn't it be the same?)
'He killed them because he got angry' therefore 'He can wipe them out by thninking of it'? Your grasp of logical deduction is apparently non-existant.
The ST writers were the one that put that dialogue in the episode, not I. So before you jump down my throat about it, speak with them.

Show me the quote that says that he killed them with a thought if you want to avoid being called a retard. I certainly don't remember it, but my recall is not one hundred percent.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 04:12pm

Tommy J wrote:
'He killed them because he got angry' therefore 'He can wipe them out by thninking of it'? Your grasp of logical deduction is apparently non-existant.
The ST writers were the one that put that dialogue in the episode, not I. So before you jump down my throat about it, speak with them.

While I usually heartily approve of the Trek writers being blamed for anything up to and including the crusades, what have they got to do with your inability to differenciate between 'can do so in a fit of rage' and 'can do so by thinking about it'?

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-12-20 04:18pm

What the Dowd said in "The Survivors" suggests at least that he did it pretty fast.

Yes! I saw her broken body. I
went insane! My hatred exploded
and in an instant of grief I
destroyed the Husnock!

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-12-20 04:18pm

Tommy J wrote:(an interesting aside, the Emperor vs. the Q, that would be an interesting match-up) Would the force be powerful enough to over-come the powers of the Q?

The Emperor would OWN Q. Power levels have absolutely no bearing on it, actually.

Q, quite frankly, is a dumbass. He would do his usual prankery obnoxious behavior, and Palpatine would probably rail against it for a bit, until he figured out that Q is quite easily manipulated.

I mean, for fuck's sake... Picard and even Riker outsmart Q. Palpatine engineered the downfall of a government that for all its flaws endured for millennia, while also causing the downfall of the Jedi.

Q is a bored child, while Palpatine is the product of a ruthless, darwinistic system (the Sith master/apprentice program) consumed with massive amounts of ambition. Sheer mental horsepower and determination trumps abilities in this matter.

I'll leave the debate on Force vs. Q powers to others.

Tommy J · Post by **Tommy J** » 2004-12-20 04:26pm

Batman wrote:
Tommy J wrote:
'He killed them because he got angry' therefore 'He can wipe them out by thninking of it'? Your grasp of logical deduction is apparently non-existant.
The ST writers were the one that put that dialogue in the episode, not I. So before you jump down my throat about it, speak with them.
While I usually heartily approve of the Trek writers being blamed for anything up to and including the crusades, what have they got to do with your inability to differenciate between 'can do so in a fit of rage' and 'can do so by thinking about it'?

They are separate but related concepts. Real world example:

*I own a gun, therefore I have the ability to kill someone

*I lock my gun away and normally don't kill anyone

*I get angry that your dog shit on my lawn. So angry, an irrational angry, that I get my gun out and shoot and kill you.

* I have had the power to kill you all long but under normal circumstances I wouldn't kill anyone for something to trivial, this time however I'm irrational and do so.

Ok, lets translate that into the Dowd.

*Canon that he can kill by thinking about it

*Canon that he normally is a peaceful man

*Canon that in a fit or rage he does kill irrationally

*Canon that while normally doesn't kill, has the power to do so

*Canon that he is regretful

*Persumed but not canon: Other options were available but in a fit of anger didn't choose those solutions.

*Persumed but not canon: Is a ST Powerful entity, but isn't able to reverse death, otherwise why wouldn't have he just done so.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 04:26pm

Luzifer's right hand wrote:What the Dowd said in "The Survivors" suggests at least that he did it pretty fast.
Yes! I saw her broken body. I
went insane! My hatred exploded
and in an instant of grief I
destroyed the Husnock!

Nobody's debating that he did it, and did it fast. I suspect the crux is that Tommy seems to equate the mental equivalent of a combined 'WAAARGH!/HULK SMASH HUSNOCK!' to 'You know, I'd really wish those Husnock were extinct' with both resulting in the Husnock being extinct.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 04:30pm

Tommy J wrote:SNIPPY

Sorry for the snippage but that was lengthy.
I sort of must have missed the canon evidence of him being able to commit remote genocide WITHOUT being in a murderous rage, which would be the requirement for him being able to do it by simply thinking about it.
See my Hulk anology. That he can do so when he's livid doesn't mean he can as he wishes.

Tommy J · Post by **Tommy J** » 2004-12-20 04:35pm

SirNitram wrote:
Tommy J wrote:
SirNitram wrote: 'He killed them because he got angry' therefore 'He can wipe them out by thninking of it'? Your grasp of logical deduction is apparently non-existant.
The ST writers were the one that put that dialogue in the episode, not I. So before you jump down my throat about it, speak with them.
Show me the quote that says that he killed them with a thought if you want to avoid being called a retard. I certainly don't remember it, but my recall is not one hundred percent.

I don't have the script or the episode available the moment -- therefore I'm going from memory as well.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 04:43pm

SirNitram wrote: Show me the quote that says that he killed them with a thought if you want to avoid being called a retard. I certainly don't remember it, but my recall is not one hundred percent.

Now that I've seen that (reseen that, propably-oops) even my assumption that Uxbridge DID so by inherent powers albeit in a major fit of rage is unsupported-for all we know , he merely pressed the 'go' button on the remote for the 'exterminate all Husnock' machine.

Tommy J · Post by **Tommy J** » 2004-12-20 04:46pm

Batman wrote:
Luzifer's right hand wrote:What the Dowd said in "The Survivors" suggests at least that he did it pretty fast.
Yes! I saw her broken body. I
went insane! My hatred exploded
and in an instant of grief I
destroyed the Husnock!
Nobody's debating that he did it, and did it fast. I suspect the crux is that Tommy seems to equate the mental equivalent of a combined 'WAAARGH!/HULK SMASH HUSNOCK!' to 'You know, I'd really wish those Husnock were extinct' with both resulting in the Husnock being extinct.

Exactly. And any logical person would say that he didn't kill an entire species by creating an entire fleet of ships. Logic would say that he didn't create a magical army.

One infers from the dialogue that using a mental ability killed them quickly. I suppose it could have been mass sucide by some mental trick. Who knows maybe they all drank the kool-aid at once.

The point is that Mr. Wong was saying that something wasn't logical about the concept because he didn't use a less harsh method to stop them and a more logical method (stop engines.etc).

My rebuttal to him was that people do things out of anger that is irrational and many times regretful. They make decisions that they cannot reverse. I believe this is one.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-12-20 04:53pm

The Emperor would OWN Q. Power levels have absolutely no bearing on it, actually.

Q, quite frankly, is a dumbass. He would do his usual prankery obnoxious behavior, and Palpatine would probably rail against it for a bit, until he figured out that Q is quite easily manipulated.

I mean, for fuck's sake... Picard and even Riker outsmart Q. Palpatine engineered the downfall of a government that for all its flaws endured for millennia, while also causing the downfall of the Jedi.

Q is a bored child, while Palpatine is the product of a ruthless, darwinistic system (the Sith master/apprentice program) consumed with massive amounts of ambition. Sheer mental horsepower and determination trumps abilities in this matter.

I'll leave the debate on Force vs. Q powers to others.

ONLY if Q was stupid enough to give Palpatine the weapons of a Q (as he did in Voyager and to a more dramatic extend Riker), can Palpy take Q. Fanwanking aside, Palpy himself has no means of killing a Q otherwise. And even then, the moment Palpy-Q killed prankster-Q, the rest of the Continuum would have his ass.

In all ST eps involving Q, the only Q that have died or have come close to dieing were because:
- other Q attacked them;
- someone wielding Q weapons attacked them;
- other Q stripped them of their powers, and then attacked them (or the Q in question commited suicide).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 04:55pm

Tommy J wrote: Exactly. And any logical person would say that he didn't kill an entire species by creating an entire fleet of ships. Logic would say that he didn't create a magical army.

Um-logic would say that we have no clue how he did it, except that it apparwntly happened way fast.

One infers from the dialogue that using a mental ability killed them quickly.

Um-no. I admit I fell for that one at first, but whatever Uxbridge did killed them quickly. Hence the 'Husnock genocide machine'. No need for mental capacities at all.

The point is that Mr. Wong was saying that something wasn't logical about the concept because he didn't use a less harsh method to stop them and a more logical method (stop engines.etc).

I suggest you reread that statement. Mike said hat the fact the onlyway Uxbridge could stop the Husnock shows rather harsh limits to the Dowd's supposed 'omni'potency. Nothing more.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-20 04:57pm

Tommy J wrote:Exactly. And any logical person would say that he didn't kill an entire species by creating an entire fleet of ships. Logic would say that he didn't create a magical army.

And only the blazingly retarded would make up a mental power to explain it. Because any sensible person understands the logical principle of Parsimony.

But you don't need parsimony, you have fanwanking. Pathetic.

Tommy J · Post by **Tommy J** » 2004-12-20 05:10pm

SirNitram wrote:
Tommy J wrote:Exactly. And any logical person would say that he didn't kill an entire species by creating an entire fleet of ships. Logic would say that he didn't create a magical army.
And only the blazingly retarded would make up a mental power to explain it. Because any sensible person understands the logical principle of Parsimony.

But you don't need parsimony, you have fanwanking. Pathetic.

Yea, I understand it well.

Pathetic: You mean kind of like debating a fictional Sci-Fi Universe and making assumptions one way or another as to what a writer meant in dialgoue.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-20 05:15pm

Tommy J wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Tommy J wrote:Exactly. And any logical person would say that he didn't kill an entire species by creating an entire fleet of ships. Logic would say that he didn't create a magical army.
And only the blazingly retarded would make up a mental power to explain it. Because any sensible person understands the logical principle of Parsimony.

But you don't need parsimony, you have fanwanking. Pathetic.
Yea, I understand it well.

Suuure you do. You just assume totally unproven mechanisms because it fits your little wankery.

Pathetic: You mean kind of like debating a fictional Sci-Fi Universe and making assumptions one way or another as to what a writer meant in dialgoue.

Like you just did, assuming a mental power was present?

Fuck off, you little turd. You don't like what's done here? Go away. I'm sure in whatever retarded clique you come from, stamping into somewhere and calling it stupid is somehow 'cool' or 'l33t', but it just shows a massive inferiority complex and a six year old's mentality. We have enough deluded children around that we don't need you.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 05:16pm

Tommy J wrote: Pathetic: You mean kind of like debating a fictional Sci-Fi Universe and making assumptions one way or another as to what a writer meant in dialgoue.

Who, except the two of us (don't start, people, okay?) has assumed any thing here?
FACT: Uxbridge SOMEHOW killed all the Husnock in a fit of rage (let's assume for a moment that's fact and not just his impression-was that ever confirmed elsewhere?)
FACT: Um-that's it. We have no clue how he did it. He might have wished them out of existence, he might have triggered their cerebral self-distruct, we don't know, so we have no basis for any theory on how he did it. For all we know, there were only 17 of them left and he simply torpedoed their starship.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-12-20 10:05pm

Bellator wrote:ONLY if Q was stupid enough to give Palpatine the weapons of a Q (as he did in Voyager and to a more dramatic extend Riker), can Palpy take Q. Fanwanking aside, Palpy himself has no means of killing a Q otherwise. And even then, the moment Palpy-Q killed prankster-Q, the rest of the Continuum would have his ass.

In all ST eps involving Q, the only Q that have died or have come close to dieing were because:
- other Q attacked them;
- someone wielding Q weapons attacked them;
- other Q stripped them of their powers, and then attacked them (or the Q in question commited suicide).

I never said he'd kill Q. Palpatine would never dispose of a useful tool like Q. He would simply put him to work reordering reality to suit Palpatine's whims. Master manipulator, remember?

But this isn't SW v. ST, so I'll concede Q's magic snappy powers reign supreme and leave it lie.

Darth Lucifer · Post by **Darth Lucifer** » 2004-12-20 10:57pm

SirNitram wrote:And only the blazingly retarded would make up a mental power to explain it.

Just for the record, I was the one who brought up telepathy, based on show dialog and what was shown on screen. No fanwanking here, just grasping at straws...the writing is just fucking terrible. I never liked this episode and I never had a high opinion of Mr. "I will not kill." (Little too late for that shit after committing genocide if you ask me.)

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-12-21 12:21am

Gary Mitchell vs. Charlie X

low-level omnipotence.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-12-23 05:12pm

Enola Straight wrote:Gary Mitchell vs. Charlie X

low-level omnipotence.

Hum been a while since I have seen those. Well Kirk managed to beat Gary but I can't rember what happened to Charlie. And as to the topic at hand I say Q.