Theory: Janeway, politco?

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-16 05:35am

Reading the HoSed thread on Janeway recently I had a thought on why Janeway was promoted and showered with praise. Maybe she knew where Starfleet's bodies were buried.

I'll expand, in history we see many officers promoted in spite of themselves due to political connection and for having "useful" knowledge, given what we know about Starfleet, is this possible that Janeway's raise and avoidence of negative effects for her actions is due to the fact that she has a political trump card?

If so what could it be?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-12-16 05:38am

I don't see many other ways for an incompetent like her to make Admiral, do you?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-12-16 06:19am

Maybe she had dirt on Admiral Paris. Or he was so happy to have his son back that he pushed for her promotion

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-12-16 06:25am

A history of quid pro quo might explain how she got promoted to captain and decided his son's skills were "essential", thus getting him out prison.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 10:32am

Son out of prison might work but I'm inclined to think not. Admiral Paris was an Admiral, infinitely more authority than Janeway was as a Captain, Janeway was a Captain already, why would Paris need her help to get his son out of prison. Plus Paris (the son) was disowned by Admiral Paris anyway, they didn't have a good relationship I believe.

Why not another explaination. Janeway sucked as a Captain, so they promoted her to some deskjob. There's no evidence of political connection anyway.

Brian

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-12-16 10:49am

brianeyci wrote:Son out of prison might work but I'm inclined to think not. Admiral Paris was an Admiral, infinitely more authority than Janeway was as a Captain, Janeway was a Captain already, why would Paris need her help to get his son out of prison. Plus Paris (the son) was disowned by Admiral Paris anyway, they didn't have a good relationship I believe.

Why not another explaination. Janeway sucked as a Captain, so they promoted her to some deskjob. There's no evidence of political connection anyway.

Brian

Well, at a desk, she could do even MORE damage. So that was a bad move....

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 11:44am

Well how. She taught Academy recruits, I believe about Borg. Command skills aside, she is the Feds most knowledgable person on Borg other than Picard. She wasn't put in charge of the 7th fleet or something.

Brian

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-16 12:15pm

Given that Starfleet in TNG/DS9/Voyager era seems to be less about violent confrontation and more about diplomacy, wouldn't it make sense that Starfleet's Admirals of this time would promote her?

I've been told by no less than four friends of mine (ex-officers in the US Navy and Army) that promotion to Admiral rank and above is less about leadership qualities, or knowlege of tactics, strategy, or logistics, than it is about political ability. In other words, flag ranks promote people who can help them politically, not necessarily the best leaders. I'm sure they're exaggerting somewhat, but you can hardly argue that most flag officers are, for the most part, adept politicians.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 12:18pm

Fed Admirals have a great deal of leeway. Maybe Janeway was on rotation or something.

A counter-argument to my claim about a desk job is that the Janeway that was an academy teacher only in the alternate timeline, the one that Voyager gets killed in. Damn time travel.

Fine, Janeway got promoted. Still hard to believe that it was through political connections. More likely Janeway was a hero to the Federation, and not giving a promotion to her would have been incredibly awkward. She comes back from the Delta Quadrant, kills Borg cubes, does it with an Intrepid, and doesn't take 80 years to do it. That's the stuff of legends. Also she did it with Maquis, heroes to most Federation citizens. How could they not reward her somehow. Either assign her a promotion to a new class of vessel (imagine her Captaining a Sovereign lol), or get her behind a desk.

Brian

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-16 12:48pm

How are the Maquis heros to the citizens of the Federation? Do you have proof of this?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-12-16 12:56pm

Janeway always said she was a scientist and she did show a lot of interest in science. So I always figured that she became Captain of a ship like Voyager because science and exploration was the primary purpose for that type of ship. I mean it's a cool little ship but it's not like it was a high profile gig. It's like being made the CO of a Frigate.

Mostly Janeway wold probably been an okay Captain of a ship like Voyager if she didn't run into too many extreme situations. Unfortunately that's what she ran into. Considering all the times they could have just been wasted or stuck in the Delta Quadrant it is impressive that Voyager made it back at all.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 01:06pm

frigidmagi wrote:How are the Maquis heros to the citizens of the Federation? Do you have proof of this?

I believe in the opening credits to the first episode of Voyager, they pull a Star Wars and have some text scrolling down. I think the text says something about the Maquis being heroes to citizens of the Federation.

I can try and find other references if you want to.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 01:12pm

We hear a lot of about Starfleet officers being sympathetic to maquis.

TNG Preemptive Strike wrote: GUL EVEK
The Maquis came at us with photon
torpedoes and type eight phasers --
tell me, Captain, how do you
suppose a group of civilians
acquired that kind of weaponry?

PICARD
It was certainly not through
official channels.

GUL EVEK
You don't think the fact that some
of the Maquis are former Starfleet
officers has anything to do with
it?

Preemptive Strike wrote: RO
I've heard a lot about the Maquis.
(beat)
One of my instructors in Tactical
Training... a Lieutenant Commander
in Starfleet -- a man I admired
and respectded... was sympathetic
to them. He resigned and left to
join them.

Also many of the Maquis are disaffected Federation citizens. It would be hard to believe that Maquis would not be heroes in the minds of many Federation officers at the least, like that rogue Minbari ship in B5 which disobeyed the surrender order were heroes to the Minbari military.

I can probably find more if I dig.

Brian

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-12-16 01:57pm

Janeway's promotion could have been to get her out of a captain's chair and safely behind a desk--hell, Voyager never seemed to run short very short of supplies, maybe she's a logistical genius and they stuck her where her limited talents would be useful. Or it's a ceremonial position with little real power, a way to punish her for ineptitude and repeatedly violating the Prime Directive without court martialing a hero.

Out of universe: the people who write Star Trek actually think Janeway was a great captain. She got promoted because she deserved it.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-16 02:40pm

Also many of the Maquis are disaffected Federation citizens. It would be hard to believe that Maquis would not be heroes in the minds of many Federation officers at the least, like that rogue Minbari ship in B5 which disobeyed the surrender order were heroes to the Minbari military.

The fact that you have alot of exmilitary personnel is not going to automaticly make you a hero to the populace. The fact that those officers were thrown out of Starfleet is a mark against it in my eyes, making it a weak support for your belief.

I can probably find more if I dig.

Brian

Please do, I will be happy to concede if you prove enough evidence.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 03:40pm

Well searching for unofficial scripts on the internet,

VOY Caretaker I wrote: Unhappy with a new treaty, Federation Colonists along the Cardassian border have banded together.
Calling themselves "The Maquis", they continue to fight the Cardassians.
Some consider them heroes, but to the governments of the Federation and Cardassia, they are outlaws.

I believe this is presented as text scrolling down the screen, not a character saying it.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 03:42pm

frigidmagi wrote:The fact that you have alot of exmilitary personnel is not going to automaticly make you a hero to the populace. The fact that those officers were thrown out of Starfleet is a mark against it in my eyes, making it a weak support for your belief.

And no. They aren't just ex-military, they left Starfleet to join the Maquis al la Ensign Ro style, defecting (see the academy instructor of tactical training quote).

Brian

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-16 03:44pm

And no. They aren't just ex-military, they left Starfleet to join the Maquis al la Ensign Ro style, defecting (see the academy instructor of tactical training quote).

Leaving Starfleet is what made them ex-military.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 03:50pm

frigidmagi wrote:Leaving Starfleet is what made them ex-military.

You know what I mean, they're not just retired guys or guys that got kicked out of Starfleet because they were incompetent, they are Starfleet guys who got fed up with the Federation abandoning their own citizens and quit to defend them.

Brian

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-16 04:03pm

They are still ex-militiary. In fact a good number of them are ex-miliitary who were thrown out. Do you have any other agruments besides that and half a crawl?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 04:17pm

Actually I skimmed through a few scripts with maquis in them.

The Maquis, II wrote: SISKO
On Earth there's no poverty, no crime,
no war. You look out the window of
Starfleet headquarters and you see...
paradise. Well, it's easy to be a
saint in paradise. But the Maquis
don't live in paradise. Out there
in the Demilitarized Zone, all the
problems haven't been solved yet.
Out there, there are no saints...
just people. Angry, scared,
determined people who are going to
do whatever it takes to survive.
Whether it meets with Federation
approval or not.

So from Sisko's point of view, a lot of Federation citizens don't give a shit about the maquis.

But from the quotation from Voyager Caretaker (which came down as text so was objective, not subjective like Sisko's view), those not in the government of the Federation and the Cardassians are the ones who consider the maquis heroes, so some Federation citizens would consider maquis heroes, and we already know many Starfleet members consider the Maquis heroes. Maybe not those on Earth, but a lot of colonies. What if you were living next to the Romulan neutral zone, or any border for that matter. You would be sympathetic to the Maquis cause, because what if Starfleet decides to trade your world for peace?

Fine frigidmagi, I back off from my statement that "Federation citizens consider the maquis heroes". Will you settle for many Starfleet officers and some Federation citizens consider the maquis heroes? I don't see why there wouldn't be romanticism by some. You have a government who trades away a planet for peace, and the citizens refuse and take up arms against the mean Cardies. The situation alone would endear many colony worlds to the maquis cause. Its not like Starfleet can stop planets from creating their own policy, they don't have a ground army and don't go around replacing member state's institutions when they join the Federation.What if Starfleet decided to trade your planet?

Brian

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-12-16 04:54pm

I'll take some officers consider them to be heros, has there is still enough officers for Starfleet to use to activily hunt down Maquis Ships.

Otherwise I'll agree with the compromise.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-16 05:06pm

frigidmagi wrote:I'll take some officers consider them to be heros, has there is still enough officers for Starfleet to use to activily hunt down Maquis Ships.

Otherwise I'll agree with the compromise.

Well, Starfleet was doing a bad job of hunting down the Maquis. I'm not sure that Starfleet Captains really tried. They got orders down from Admirals, but really how long could a bunch of rag-tag rebels with outdated equipment have fought the Cardassians without some support from disgruntled SF Captains. They had military grade weapons and ex-military should not be able to access Starfleet resources so easily unless they have sympathizers in Starfleet.

Brian

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-16 07:45pm

Nah, I think it is because of the Dilbert Principle.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2004-12-16 07:49pm

<snip> (I forgot I could edit in this forum. Could a Mod please delete this?)