Borg frequency dependency and Dark Frontier

[SirNitram]

Someone care to explain to me (in terms a two year could understand) how geometry and frequency are interchangeable terms?

They're not. Thank you for your strawman fallacy. Still batting zero.

So when countering a frequency specific weapon, the Borg have at least two methods of doing so. Shield frequency changes and shield geometry changes. Where's the logical flaw?

You throwing out strawmen(So shape and frequency are the same? stupidity), you implying it means drones can adapt to more, and so on. This 'Who, me?' bullshit you pull is tiresome.

[Batman]

I see your literacy is lacking. This thread contanis canon usage of the phrase in Voyager. Every instance involves frequencies. Further, I have shown the weapon being adapted to IS frequency-based in nature.
Don't post this bullshit when it's already been addressed.

Come now. I agree Brian missed the plethora of evidence presented in the very opening post, but at least his intentions seem reasonable for a change, and frankly given your spelling of 'contains' you're at least RATM not really in a position to contend his literacy

[SirNitram]

I see your literacy is lacking. This thread contanis canon usage of the phrase in Voyager. Every instance involves frequencies. Further, I have shown the weapon being adapted to IS frequency-based in nature.
Don't post this bullshit when it's already been addressed.

Come now. I agree Brian missed the plethora of evidence presented in the very opening post, but at least his intentions seem reasonable for a change, and frankly given your spelling of 'contains' you're at least RATM not really in a position to contend his literacy

Mi spelinng iz gud!

[Batman]

Mi spelinng iz gud!

And here I was thinking Tyrannids assimilated people in the WH40Kverse...
I assume you'll be going WAAAGH! and charging blindly next?

[SirNitram]

Mi spelinng iz gud!

And here I was thinking Tyrannids assimilated people in the WH40Kverse...
I assume you'll be going WAAAGH! and charging blindly next?

Are you implying I'm a fungal growth? I must stab you. In the nads.

[Batman]

Are you implying I'm a fungal growth? I must stab you. In the nads.

You're supposed to be a BM and that's the best you can do? I'm majorly dissapointed.
Anyway, this apears to be developing into a threadjack. I vote we go back to pointing out how Dark Frontier is worthless for disproving Borg weapon adaption being frequency dependent, and laugh at Robert for failing to prove this wrong.
Or we may take this to the HOS (though I have to warn you I'm not much of a flamewarrior so keeping it here is likely to be much more entertaining).

[brianeyci]

I see your literacy is lacking. This thread contanis canon usage of the phrase in Voyager. Every instance involves frequencies. Further, I have shown the weapon being adapted to IS frequency-based in nature.

No. What I was suggesting was that Walper see the sources themselves, to confirm it himself, and look to see if there are other uses of the word triaxillate. I'm not suggesting that anybody is lying, but for Walper it is worth the independent verification if the Borg frequency thing is so important to him. Good research technique.

Brian

[Winston Blake]

Replace it with "modulate" and you get a frequency related thing. Hell, replace it with "sodomise" and you get another entirely different thing- since Dark Frontier is an ambiguous exception to the rule, the burden of proof is on you to prove that triaxillation has nothing to do with wave phenomena and hence frequencies. Just because replacing the word with another changes the sentence's meaning doesn't mean the term is NOT related to what you don't want it to be.

The term triaxillate is used in conjunction with a upcoming modification to their shield geometry. Care to explain how the vessel's shield geometry would have anything to do with the frequency of their shields?

I don't have to, since you're the one who's claiming the ability that the Borg can adapt in a non-frequency related way to a frequency based weapon. This is one incident which is unclear whether or not the adaption is frequency-related, due to the technobabble. You would have to prove that 'triaxillation' has nothing to do with waves, but i've presented many examples where the term was directly associated with wave phenomena (like frequencies).

Trek shields are known to be based on frequencies- in Dark Frontier the Borg make an alteration to their shields that is proved to be wave-related (triaxillation). This example is useless to you, look for another one.

Anyway, geometry can have a helluva lot to do with frequencies- ever fiddled with an antenna's orientation and shape to get good reception?

I don't see your arguement disproving Borg adaptation is capable of countering a frequency specific weapon by non frequency adaptation technique.

You claim the Borg can do something we have never seen them do based on one ambiguous example since it contains no obviously wave-related terms.

You obviously don't grasp the significance of the fact we only see the Borg adapt to one enemy, the Federation. The first time we witness them adapt to a different enemy, they use a different adaptation technique. If that's beyond your comprehension, that's your problem, not mine.

It might be a different enemy, but their attack is a "modulating phaser pulse". Are you going to claim phasers aren't frequency based? That modulation has nothing to do with wave phenomena? The fact that the word 'modulating' is in present tense indicates the phaser is continously modifying some property (e.g. amplitude, frequency, phase), making it hard for the Borg to adapt.

The burden of proof is on you to show that triaxillation has nothing to do with frequencies.

Read Seven's comment where she's talking about shield geometry, not frequency.

She talks about modifying the shield geometry in a wave-related way (triaxillation). I bet if she said "Modulate the frequency of the shield geometry" you would still claim this adaption had nothing to with wave-phenomena.

You can't hide behind the ambiguity of the term any more, since it has now been directly associated with wave-related terms and phenomena on many occasions.

So triaxillate can be a multi purpose modification term, including frequencies.

So it's consistently used to refer to wave-related phenomena, and when it's used in a modification of a frequency-related system (shields) against a frequency-based attack (a modulating phaser pulse) you conclude that, based on this one ambiguous event, that the word is actually far more general in meaning and only sometimes applies to wave phenomena?

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

*nods* Alright, I concede the point. Makes sense.

[Winston Blake]

*snip*

*nods* Alright, I concede the point. Makes sense.

I now have more respect for you, and i'm sure everyone else does too.

[Superman]

Pfff... well I don't! Damn you, Walper! Damn you!

Just kidding, we're buddies...

[Major Diarrhia]

I agree with the thread OP but are there other quotes with the use of "shield geometry" in them? Such quotes may have avoided the argument when combined with the "triaxillate" quotes.

[Robert Walper]

I agree with the thread OP but are there other quotes with the use of "shield geometry" in them? Such quotes may have avoided the argument when combined with the "triaxillate" quotes.

What was causing my grievance was the "shield geometry" aspect of the comment. I took it to mean that the shield itself was being reconfigured geometrically without the frequency aspect. We've seen Trek shields do this all the time, expanding to enclose another ship, reacting to the Crystaline Entity, Voyager did so once (configuring the shields to level a unpowered atmospheric flight).

[Major Diarrhia]

I agree with the thread OP but are there other quotes with the use of "shield geometry" in them? Such quotes may have avoided the argument when combined with the "triaxillate" quotes.

What was causing my grievance was the "shield geometry" aspect of the comment. I took it to mean that the shield itself was being reconfigured geometrically without the frequency aspect. We've seen Trek shields do this all the time, expanding to enclose another ship, reacting to the Crystaline Entity, Voyager did so once (configuring the shields to level a unpowered atmospheric flight).

I know, but they never make mention of such physicaly aparent changes. For all we know, that sort of thing is automatic. So, I think any mention of "shield geometry" aught to support the triaxillation stuff. The more evidence that can be braught forward, the better.

[drachefly]

For electrons at least, the gamma rays emitted by matter/antimatter annihilation have very well-defined frequencies, which are given by f = hmcc, with h Planck's constant (the original one, not Dirac's version), and c = the speed of light, and m = the mass of the annihilated particles ('rest mass', though this term is passing out of popularity).

That's for single particles, like electrons... an annihilating proton/antiproton can give off a wider spectrum because it's a garbage can of quarks which will not annihilate in a single interaction with exactly two photons coming out.

Even for electrons, it is possible, though, for these frequencies to be offset using the Doppler effect. No such ability appears to be built into photon torpedoes.

Also, the frequencies are so high it would be quite a wonder for anything frequency-specific to be adapted to them. SO either the Borg have some REALLY nifty tricks up their sleeves for dealing with ultra-high frequency shit coming at them, or they have some ability to deal with attacks in ways that do not specifically depend on the attack's frequency.

[Robert Walper]

For electrons at least, the gamma rays emitted by matter/antimatter annihilation have very well-defined frequencies, which are given by f = hmcc, with h Planck's constant (the original one, not Dirac's version), and c = the speed of light, and m = the mass of the annihilated particles ('rest mass', though this term is passing out of popularity).

That's for single particles, like electrons... an annihilating proton/antiproton can give off a wider spectrum because it's a garbage can of quarks which will not annihilate in a single interaction with exactly two photons coming out.

Even for electrons, it is possible, though, for these frequencies to be offset using the Doppler effect. No such ability appears to be built into photon torpedoes.

Also, the frequencies are so high it would be quite a wonder for anything frequency-specific to be adapted to them. SO either the Borg have some REALLY nifty tricks up their sleeves for dealing with ultra-high frequency shit coming at them, or they have some ability to deal with attacks in ways that do not specifically depend on the attack's frequency.

Ok, I'm out of my element here, but would this effect be a significant portion of the damaging attribute of photon torpedoes?

[Eframepilot]

when collided, the protons and antiprotons will produce various hadrons, mesons and leptons that will quickly decay to electrons (and positrons), muons, photons and neutrinos (which won't interact with the target, of course). These are the only particles with lifetimes long enough to travel significant macroscopic distances (like 100 m). Of course, for a Borg cube, shorter-lived particles like pions and kaons will also survive long enough to impact the hull, as the shields hug the hull of the cube. Assuming that photon torpedos do indeed work by proton-antiproton annihilation, all of their damage will be delivered by these high energy particles plus the plasma remnants of the torpedo casing. These particles should have a large spread of energies and thus no frequency in common, at least in real life. But in Star Trek they could have some crazy undiscovered technobabble "phase" or "frequency" in common.

[Mad]

These particles should have a large spread of energies and thus no frequency in common, at least in real life. But in Star Trek they could have some crazy undiscovered technobabble "phase" or "frequency" in common.

To my knowledge, though, there is no reason to believe the energy release has any special properties. The torpedo when in flight seems to have a shield system with a frequency that can be used to push the torpedo through shields (as in Generations), but that doesn't say anything about the actual energy release.

On the other hand, I recently saw some quotes that make me wonder if Trek antimatter is anything like real-life antimatter. (Mostly a discussion in Voyager about antimatter waste which just makes no sense.) That is probably best left for another thread, though.