Ugly is not bad; this is startrek after all and cannot be rationalized simply in short sentences and small words
I would suggest as you approach warp 10 normally your speed and power consumption increases, you can achieve an arbitrarily large velocity as you near 10, but you need an arbitrarily large power consumption as well, thus placing a practical limit on the speed that can be attained. However, on the other side of 10 speed increases similarly, but the power cost is not as steep allowing greater velocity for the same reactor output, and thus granting transwarp a definite speed advantage.
I would also suggest power consumption past 10 does not decrease like in the curves drawn above. The Enterprise D continued to accelerate past 10; if the core was putting out x power to approach 10 and then broke the barrier somehow, it might actually slow down as the core is putting out too much energy. I suppose it might not actually slow down, the nacelles may simply use that much less of the output, but then I ask where the extra energy goes
My two cents.
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Interesting way of looking at it Silence. Warp 10 was never a infite speed, they just assumed it was because of how the power output was working.
Could the Warp-10 barrier be similar to the sound barrier? Some sort of barrier that is hard to get past, but once past things get easier?
Anyway I would hazard to guess in the TNG example the Enterprise quite simply passed Warp-10 and rapidly took advantage of the decreasing curve allowing it to travel VERY far while being beyond the computers speed measurement scale.
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To get to the warps higher than 10 it is probably not necessary to pass through warp 10, simply by virtue of 10's pathological nature.
The warp field could tunnel through the barrier into the higher warp number states; or if the warp field is a superposition of waves, with the first mode being warp 1, etc.... and the intermediate warps having weirder behavior... then bypassing 10 would be possible by exciting the 11th oscillation mode.
But that raises the question of why they normally can't do that. Perhaps the key is to decouple the coils from the warp field while the coils pass through the pathological warp 10, then recouple on the far side? But you'd need a Cosmic Clutch or something to mediate.
Alyeska wrote:Interesting way of looking at it Silence. Warp 10 was never a infite speed, they just assumed it was because of how the power output was working.
Could the Warp-10 barrier be similar to the sound barrier? Some sort of barrier that is hard to get past, but once past things get easier?
Anyway I would hazard to guess in the TNG example the Enterprise quite simply passed Warp-10 and rapidly took advantage of the decreasing curve allowing it to travel VERY far while being beyond the computers speed measurement scale.
A reasonable interpretation.
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drachefly wrote:But that raises the question of why they normally can't do that. Perhaps the key is to decouple the coils from the warp field while the coils pass through the pathological warp 10, then recouple on the far side? But you'd need a Cosmic Clutch or something to mediate.
Sounds like something Douglas Adams would write about, "Oh no! You've jammed the Cosmic Clutch, now we'll never be able to get the ship in gear!"
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Alyeska wrote:Interesting way of looking at it Silence. Warp 10 was never a infite speed, they just assumed it was because of how the power output was working.
Could the Warp-10 barrier be similar to the sound barrier? Some sort of barrier that is hard to get past, but once past things get easier?
You're starting to sound an awful lot like me now, Alyeska.
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"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
The way Warp 10 is defined according to Voyager is incredibly stupid, but if indeed the curve is aymptotic (which is really the only way to interpret the Voyager statements in any meaningful fashion), then it is impossible even in mathematical theory to ever reach Warp 10. But if (like most asymptotic functions) there is a "mirrored" curve on the other side of Warp 10, it's probably negative. Which would imply negative velocity, which in turn means that the ship doing Warp 12 is going backwards at Warp 8.
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That conflicts with the evidence that Warp 13 is faster than Warp 9. It may simply be a more economical version of warp 9.99, but it has to have some advantage. Otherwise, Riker would have used warp 9 instead of Warp 13 in All Good Things...
Not all numerical singularities flip sign. E.g. 1/x^2 (though in the complex plane it does flip sign twice).
Ooh, there's an idea... they bypass warp 10 by going from warp 9 to 9 + i, then from there to 10 + i, 11 + i, and then to 11.
Imaginary numgers, ugh... I bloody hated that part of math.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
drachefly wrote:That conflicts with the evidence that Warp 13 is faster than Warp 9. It may simply be a more economical version of warp 9.99, but it has to have some advantage. Otherwise, Riker would have used warp 9 instead of Warp 13 in All Good Things...
I am unsure whether events that happen in alternate realities or possible futures in Trek can be considered 'evidence'- though that's just my opninion. The 'Warp 13' quote is from a possible future that cannot happen in the current timeline. Still, I'd imagine that as they improved their warp speed capability and started being able to propel the ship into the high 9.xxxxx's of the system used where 10 is top, they would have recalibrated their scale so that 10, 11, 12, 13 and beyond represent these numbers. (Given that warp 10 represents infinite and unachievable velocity in the current scale- I choose to believe the crew of voyager are extremely idiotic bastards and Paris just flew, somehow at an insanely High 9.xxx... speed)
What if Geordi's comment is based on the computer simply not being able to display all the numbers. What if it were ramping up untill it hit Warp 9.999999999999, then the computer said the hell with it and simply displayed 10+? Then you get Geordi's comment of going faster than warp 10. It would also involve the computer thinking 10 is a barrier, rather than litteral infinite speed. Something like that.
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drachefly wrote:So, you're saying the computer began saying Warp (10 - 10^-13), but only remembered to display the last two digits? Riight.
1. We're talking about computers were the GUEST account has administrator priviliges, can catch cold in later incarnations, and which is constructed by a culture that uses exploding consoles and touchscreen tactical controls (and no seatbelts). I rest my case.
2. How 'bout the computer displayed it exactly like you said (10-10^-13) and Geordi just fibbed? It's not like anybody would've given a damn wether or not they were REALLY moving past Warp 10, the point was they were moving faster than thought possible.
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drachefly wrote:
1. We're talking about computers were the GUEST account has administrator priviliges, can catch cold in later incarnations, and which is constructed by a culture that uses exploding consoles and touchscreen tactical controls (and no seatbelts). I rest my case.
I don't see your point. If the program were designed continually calculate up to ten but never reach it and ran out of room, it could have also been programmed to simply show 10 or 10+ in such a situation. In the same episode doesn't Data give an estimate of the warp factor they went?
A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind, except when he's fighting with a lightsaber. Jump and twirl around, he should then. -- Yoda
Either that, or someone forgot to shift the weapons from "Pussywhipped diplomacy" mode to "Vicious retribution" mode. -- Uraniun235 in regard to the Galaxy Class ship Odyssey
Alyeska wrote:TOS didn’t appear to be set quite the same way. We never get any indication that Warp scales like that. I also think the TNG episode “All Good Things” is an indication that the Federation finally decides to do away with the idiotic system thanks to the Warp-13 comment.
The E-D also did warp 10 (and faster) thanks to that Traveller guy in season 1.
That assumes Warp 10 refers to an actual speed rather than unlimited, if the scale ramps up exponentially, kind of like the energy requirements for reaching the speed of light ramps up exponentially?
And wasn't there talk that they redid the warpscale between TOS and TNG?
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You don't mean exponential -- Singular growth is even faster than exponential. (go get a graphing calculator and compare 1/(x-1) and e^x on the range 0-1)
And yes, we heard about the warp scale change, already discussed in this thread.
