I'm watching the episode tonight, and right off the bat we have the Voyager's crew keeping a number of people in "suspension" with the transporter + pattern enhancers (those glowy pillar things) to hide from the inspection teams of a police state they are flying through that is searching for "telepaths" to persecute.
Supposedly frequent use of the trick causes "culmulative cell degeneration" and if used too much some of them will not survive the re-materialization process. However, it seems they have some wiggle room with this tech and it might be useful.
Not sure exactly how long they were able to keep the people in suspension, minutes or hours (enough time for teams of undefined size of police to "inspect" the inside of the ship).
Thoughts?
Anyone seen Voyager 5x10 "Counterpoint"?
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Actually there are a few episodes I can think of this.
Scotty was suspended in a transporter for eighty years. He was able to keep his pattern from degrading somehow.
This and several other reasons are why I don't buy the "transporter is a giant cloning machine" theory. If the transporter is a giant cloning machine, and stores the data of each individual particle, why would it be necessary to worry about "pattern degredation"? You would just need to keep the data stored in memory, and it would not "degrade". The only reason why something would degrade is if the Federation had laughably horrible storage techniques. Federation starships do not regularly lose data because of "degrading of their memory banks". For example, Voyager was stuck in the Delta Quadrant for seven years and did not lose "gigaquads" of data.
Here are my other reasons.
Reason #1
"But that type of cloning doesn't involve transporters. It is a red herring", you say. No. Notice they are not specifying the way in which you clone, or the method of cloning. Pulaski did not ask how they made their clones when asking about replicative fading. The method of making clones is irrelevant. If you make a clone of a clone in the Star Trek universe, replicative fading sets in. The Federation does not know how to solve this. Therefore the transporter cannot be one giant cloning machine, unless they have solved the problem of replicative fading.
If you insist the transporter is one giant cloning machine, then you must either ignore the problem of replicative fading, or say the Federation solved replicative fading. A couple times and the replicative fading might not affect you. After hundreds of transports, like Picard and Co. have experienced, replicative fading should set in if the transporter is a giant cloning machine. You cannot ignore the problem, because making a clone of a clone will begin replicative fading. If you say the Federation has solved replicative fading, then you are introducing an unknown. The Federation has not solved replicative fading.
Reason #2
Or better yet, Anti-Reason #2. The "cloning" of Commander Riker in TNG Second Chances is stated as the "definitive proof" that the transporter is a giant cloning machine.
Of course Picard says that this "is not conclusive". What we can take from this is that the genetic drift may be indetectable, at least for first generation clones. Therefore Beverly compares the brain patterns, and concludes that cloning did not take place.
Riker is a duplicate of the other Riker.
"How can this be without cloning?", you say. "If the transporter was not a giant duplication device, then it could not have created a second Riker."
Correct. If the transporter was not a giant duplication device, then it could not have created a second Riker. But was it the transporter in normal operation that created the second Riker? This is the important question.
Reason # 3
TNG "Realm of Fear"
Doesn't sound like you die to me. Nor does it sound like you are destroyed, and then replicated on a far away planet.
If you were being cloned in this "transporter realm" then you should not be able to manipulate anything. You should be in an unresponsive state as the transporter pieces you together.
Reason #4
The Klingons are moving. Mid-transport. If they were being pieced back together molecule by molecule, then it should be impossible for them to move if they are not fully pieced together. There are numerous examples of this. Things can move and manipulate themselves at the beginning of transport, during transport, and after transport.
So to sum it up,
1. Replicative Fading Problem
2. Riker "cloned" was not cloned -- he was duplicated
3. You remain concious and aware during transport
4. You remain concious and aware at the end of transport, and at the beginning of transport.
How the hell could Riker have been duplicated and not cloned? How the hell could Picard have been turned into a kid? Who the hell knows. Suspension of disbelief. These were not "clones" in the traditional sense, but duplicates. What we do know is that during normal operation of the transporter, you are not duplicated. You remain concious and aware. This might sound stupid -- how can you remain concious and aware when you are being taken apart molecule by molecule? Suspension of disbelief again. This is what happens.
One more point. If a transporter was a giant cloning machine, why would the Dominion not use the cloning machine to pump out millions upon millions of clones? The transporter has evidently solved the problem of genetic drift, and transporting is not so power consuming that you cannot transport thousands upon thousands of personnel. Once you got the data in your computer, you could clone man after man. The Dominion was already using cloning technology, and would have no qualms about cloning this way. However, they do not use transporters to create replacement clones. They use dedicated cloning facilities. If every transporter could provide a perfect clone, why would you need a dedicated cloning facility? The Dominion has captured Federation transporters, and could pump out thousands of troops from a single transporter in a few days.
Brian
Scotty was suspended in a transporter for eighty years. He was able to keep his pattern from degrading somehow.
This and several other reasons are why I don't buy the "transporter is a giant cloning machine" theory. If the transporter is a giant cloning machine, and stores the data of each individual particle, why would it be necessary to worry about "pattern degredation"? You would just need to keep the data stored in memory, and it would not "degrade". The only reason why something would degrade is if the Federation had laughably horrible storage techniques. Federation starships do not regularly lose data because of "degrading of their memory banks". For example, Voyager was stuck in the Delta Quadrant for seven years and did not lose "gigaquads" of data.
Here are my other reasons.
Reason #1
This episode tells us that creating a "clone of a clone" has its own inherent problems. "Replicative fading" sets in when you create a clone of a clone. It is something the Federation hasn't solved yet.TNG Send in the Clones wrote:
PULASKI
How did you overcome the problem
of replicative fading?
GRANGER
We didn't.
PULASKI
You have got a problem.
RIKER
Wait. I don't understand.
Replecative fading?
PULASKI
Each time you clone you're making
a copy of a copy. Subtle errors
creep into the chromosomes, and
eventually you end up with a
non-viable clone.
GRANGER
Yes. We're developing a sort
of mental hardening of the
arteries. It's increasingly
difficult to respond to new
situations.
"But that type of cloning doesn't involve transporters. It is a red herring", you say. No. Notice they are not specifying the way in which you clone, or the method of cloning. Pulaski did not ask how they made their clones when asking about replicative fading. The method of making clones is irrelevant. If you make a clone of a clone in the Star Trek universe, replicative fading sets in. The Federation does not know how to solve this. Therefore the transporter cannot be one giant cloning machine, unless they have solved the problem of replicative fading.
If you insist the transporter is one giant cloning machine, then you must either ignore the problem of replicative fading, or say the Federation solved replicative fading. A couple times and the replicative fading might not affect you. After hundreds of transports, like Picard and Co. have experienced, replicative fading should set in if the transporter is a giant cloning machine. You cannot ignore the problem, because making a clone of a clone will begin replicative fading. If you say the Federation has solved replicative fading, then you are introducing an unknown. The Federation has not solved replicative fading.
Reason #2
Or better yet, Anti-Reason #2. The "cloning" of Commander Riker in TNG Second Chances is stated as the "definitive proof" that the transporter is a giant cloning machine.
Firstly, Beverly concludes that the Riker could not have been a clone. Memories were intact when cloned. You can say that Beverly didn't know what the hell she was saying, but you cannot ignore the fact that she is a medical professional and would be just as capable of detecting the "genetic drift" Pulaski detected, the "replicative fading" she was talking about.Script wrote:
PICARD
Could some sort of cloning be
involved?
BEVERLY
I don't think so, there's no
genetic drift.
PICARD
But that isn't conclusive.
STAR TREK: "Second Chances" - REV. 03/18/93 - ACT ONE 12.
10 CONTINUED: (2)
PICARD
Could some sort of cloning be
involved?
BEVERLY
I don't think so, there's no
genetic drift.
PICARD
But that isn't conclusive.
STAR TREK: "Second Chances" - REV. 03/18/93 - ACT ONE 12.
10 CONTINUED: (2)
BEVERLY
That's why I compared their brain
scans. Brain organization
patterns are as unique as...
fingerprints. Except for some
minor differences, theirs are
identical.
PICARD
Can't brain patterns be cloned?
BEVERLY
No. They're determined by
experience, mostly in early
childhood.
Picard takes this in.
PICARD
How could two men have shared the
same childhood experiences? It
doesn't make any sense.
Of course Picard says that this "is not conclusive". What we can take from this is that the genetic drift may be indetectable, at least for first generation clones. Therefore Beverly compares the brain patterns, and concludes that cloning did not take place.
Riker is a duplicate of the other Riker.
"How can this be without cloning?", you say. "If the transporter was not a giant duplication device, then it could not have created a second Riker."
Correct. If the transporter was not a giant duplication device, then it could not have created a second Riker. But was it the transporter in normal operation that created the second Riker? This is the important question.
Therefore, a duplicate is created when something inteferes with the transport, like a distortion field.Script wrote: LT. RIKER
I was the last one out. The
distortion field must have
interfered with the transport;
they lost their signal lock on me.
When I tried to contact the ship,
I couldn't get through the
interference.
Reason # 3
TNG "Realm of Fear"
Therefore, you remain concious through transport, and remain aware of your actions and can manipulate your surroundings. How is this possible? Who the hell cares. Suspension of disbelief. You are able to manipulate things while being transported.Script wrote:
(Transporter side) Continuous. Barclay gaping at the
life form. The thing hovers there for a moment. Then
it starts to tilt and move its body, as if trying to
communicate -- like it's supplicating. And it should
be clear at this close range that there is something
vaguely human about this creature -- it seems to be
asking for something...
Barclay watches it intently... then something else
catches his eye. He looks, and sees a second CREATURE,
similar in appearance, quickly moving through the
sparkles.
STAR TREK: "Realm of Fear" - REV. 7/17/92 - ACT FIVE 57A.
54 CONTINUED:
Barclay reacts to the sight... gradually coming to
a realization. The sparkles start to give way to
the Transporter Room, indicating that Barclay is
returning -- BARCLAY GRABS HOLD OF THE FIRST CREATURE.
Doesn't sound like you die to me. Nor does it sound like you are destroyed, and then replicated on a far away planet.
If you were being cloned in this "transporter realm" then you should not be able to manipulate anything. You should be in an unresponsive state as the transporter pieces you together.
Reason #4
The Klingons are moving. Mid-transport. If they were being pieced back together molecule by molecule, then it should be impossible for them to move if they are not fully pieced together. There are numerous examples of this. Things can move and manipulate themselves at the beginning of transport, during transport, and after transport.
So to sum it up,
1. Replicative Fading Problem
2. Riker "cloned" was not cloned -- he was duplicated
3. You remain concious and aware during transport
4. You remain concious and aware at the end of transport, and at the beginning of transport.
How the hell could Riker have been duplicated and not cloned? How the hell could Picard have been turned into a kid? Who the hell knows. Suspension of disbelief. These were not "clones" in the traditional sense, but duplicates. What we do know is that during normal operation of the transporter, you are not duplicated. You remain concious and aware. This might sound stupid -- how can you remain concious and aware when you are being taken apart molecule by molecule? Suspension of disbelief again. This is what happens.
One more point. If a transporter was a giant cloning machine, why would the Dominion not use the cloning machine to pump out millions upon millions of clones? The transporter has evidently solved the problem of genetic drift, and transporting is not so power consuming that you cannot transport thousands upon thousands of personnel. Once you got the data in your computer, you could clone man after man. The Dominion was already using cloning technology, and would have no qualms about cloning this way. However, they do not use transporters to create replacement clones. They use dedicated cloning facilities. If every transporter could provide a perfect clone, why would you need a dedicated cloning facility? The Dominion has captured Federation transporters, and could pump out thousands of troops from a single transporter in a few days.
Brian
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This ties into a question I had along time ago about why do they always "rush" with the "beam the patient directly to sickbay!" thing.
If they can hold a patient in statis for awhile, couldn't they take their time preparing? Or could the patient actually "die" of their injuries while in stasis?
And what's the difference between transporter stasis and the "Statis" they sometimes mention? Is that just the same as putting a patient "under"?
I'm surprised they don't use any kind of non-lethal cryonics in the 24th century (well other than the Q of course)...
Does time continue to go forward or do they just have the illusion of continued time? (since their consciousness would be interrupted then restarted, maybe?)
Argggh, it boggles the mind.
If they can hold a patient in statis for awhile, couldn't they take their time preparing? Or could the patient actually "die" of their injuries while in stasis?
And what's the difference between transporter stasis and the "Statis" they sometimes mention? Is that just the same as putting a patient "under"?
I'm surprised they don't use any kind of non-lethal cryonics in the 24th century (well other than the Q of course)...
Does time continue to go forward or do they just have the illusion of continued time? (since their consciousness would be interrupted then restarted, maybe?)
Argggh, it boggles the mind.