Tasha Yar Colony?

[frigidmagi]

I remember hearing how bad Tasha Yar's colony was, how it was a complete shithole, crime ridden, etc, etc... My question is if this is true why doesn't the Federation intervene?

Yar's clearly human and her colony within Federation space right? Why don't the Feds clean this up?

[TheDarkling]

I remember hearing how bad Tasha Yar's colony was, how it was a complete shithole, crime ridden, etc, etc... My question is if this is true why doesn't the Federation intervene?

Yar's clearly human and her colony within Federation space right? Why don't the Feds clean this up?

Turkana IV was an Earth colony (we don't know if it was ever a Federation world), that went bad and told the Federation to stay the hell away.

The Federation thus decided it was none of their business and stayed out of it.

[frigidmagi]

Turkana IV was an Earth colony (we don't know if it was ever a Federation world), that went bad and told the Federation to stay the hell away.

Thanks. It does seem strange though, it would be like Rhode Island telling the Federal US government to go away and the Feds doing so. Nothing else is said about it I take it?

[TheDarkling]

Thanks. It does seem strange though, it would be like Rhode Island telling the Federal US government to go away and the Feds doing so. Nothing else is said about it I take it?

Outside of Yar's statements and the episode where the Enterprise visits the planet, no there isn't.

[CDiehl]

The Federation must be either lazy or callous. They founded the colony, then let it go down the crapper so completely that rape is common. As if that weren't bad enough, they left it to become an effectively independent world without any apparent resources to defend itself from outside attack. Wouldn't the events that led to Turkana being abandoned, as well as its departure, have been a huge news story at the time, and wouldn't the public have been outraged at the Federation's unwillingness to prevent it?

[FedRebel]

The Federation must be either lazy or callous.

Or they don't want any evidence that their paradise is slowly falling apart

They founded the colony,

Earth Pre-Fed aparrently founded it

But if Earth joined the Federation wouldn't all of it's colonial assets be part of the Federation as well?

then let it go down the crapper so completely that rape is common. As if that weren't bad enough, they left it to become an effectively independent world without any apparent resources to defend itself from outside attack.

Colonies still part of the Fed have no defenses

Wouldn't the events that led to Turkana being abandoned, as well as its departure, have been a huge news story at the time, and wouldn't the public have been outraged at the Federation's unwillingness to prevent it?

The government controls the media, they could twist the story however they wanted to make Turkana IV look like a bad guy and SF look like a saint for just sitting on their asses

[Gustav32Vasa]

The Federation must be either lazy or callous. They founded the colony, then let it go down the crapper so completely that rape is common. As if that weren't bad enough, they left it to become an effectively independent world without any apparent resources to defend itself from outside attack. Wouldn't the events that led to Turkana being abandoned, as well as its departure, have been a huge news story at the time, and wouldn't the public have been outraged at the Federation's unwillingness to prevent it?

The colony dont want to be part of the Federation. The public would be angry if the Federation tried to stop the colony to leave.

[Gustav32Vasa]

The Federation must be either lazy or callous.

Or they don't want any evidence that their paradise is slowly falling apart

Must take long time for it to break up. 100 years later and the Federation is stronger then ever.

But if Earth joined the Federation wouldn't all of it's colonial assets be part of the Federation as well?

Why would they? If they didnt want to be members they didnt have to.

Colonies still part of the Fed have no defenses

Planets in the Federation have defences. Planetery shields atleast and phaserbanks perhaps.

[brianeyci]

Planets in the Federation have defences. Planetery shields atleast and phaserbanks perhaps.

In TNG "Gambit, Part I", we get a hint of Federation defenses.

PICARD
Calder Two isn't just another
archaeological site. There's a
Federation outpost there.

BARAN
(dismissive)
I don't see that as a problem.

PICARD
It's defended by Starfleet.
They're not going to just stand by
while we walk in and take whatever
we want.

BARAN
I'm aware of the tactical
situation.

VEKOR
(concerned)
What are their defenses?

BARAN
Nothing to worry about. They have
a type-four deflector shield
protecting the outpost and the
ruins.

PICARD
They'll also have a minimum of two
phaser banks... and possibly even
photon torpedoes. Is that enough
to worry about?

So if an archaeological site has such a minimum of defenses, a settled planet will have more formidable defenses. Considering a Galaxy Class has ten phaser banks, settled planets are probably quite formidably protected against the odd pirate vessel. However, fleets will easily overcome planetary defenses.

Oh an I disagree with planetary shielding. We have no evidence of planetary shielding other than the weak "Thermal Shields" that can't even stand up to a 300 degree firestorm. A "Type-Four" deflector shield evidently doesn't sound very impressive to Baran, and is probably only used to stop transport and weak weapons.

However, given that a full spread of torpedoes can take out the shields of a Galaxy Class, a Federation outpost's offensive capabilities are nothing to laugh at. Two phaser banks and a photon launcher could probably deal with minor threats like a BOP.

<edit> Oh I wasn't very clear why I claimed why fleets would easily overcome planetary defenses. It is because shielding in ST seems vastly underpowered compared to offensive weapons. For example a full spread of photons can take down the shields of a Galaxy. So although a Federation outpost or a Federation planet could easily deal with a couple of raiders, a fleet would overwhelm the outpost because their shields wouldn't hold. </edit>

Brian

[Gustav32Vasa]

Oh an I disagree with planetary shielding. We have no evidence of planetary shielding other than the weak "Thermal Shields" that can't even stand up to a 300 degree firestorm. A "Type-Four" deflector shield evidently doesn't sound very impressive to Baran, and is probably only used to stop transport and weak weapons.

Actually I forgot about this episode. In the TOS episode with the insane asylum and/or the prison they said that the prison was under a shield. It’s true that the shield didn’t surround the entire planet but it would be fairly easy to cover the planet with several of these shield projectors.

[brianeyci]

Actually I forgot about this episode. In the TOS episode with the insane asylum and/or the prison they said that the prison was under a shield. It’s true that the shield didn’t surround the entire planet but it would be fairly easy to cover the planet with several of these shield projectors.

Yes, but how strong are these shields, and are they capable of withstanding a planetary bombardment? The Enterprise didn't want to blow up the colony so they didn't try and punch through the shields with their phasers and torpedoes.

We see no evidence of powerful planetary shielding able to withstand a capital ship's weapons in ST.

The prison's shields could be like the Type-4 deflector in the TNG episode I mentioned -- powerful enough to stop transporters and weak weapons, but not powerful enough to stop any kind of sustained attack even by a raider ship.

Brian

[Oberleutnant]

Earth Pre-Fed aparrently founded it

But if Earth joined the Federation wouldn't all of it's colonial assets be part of the Federation as well?

From www.memory-alpha.org/en/index.php/Turkana_IV

"Whilst officially a Federation protectorate, the planet's government began breaking down in the 2330s. Dozens of factions developed, and civil war broke out. The Turkana government gave emergency powers to the two largest factions, the Coalition and the Alliance, but they were quickly overthrown by those cadres, and the planet broke away from the Federation in the 2350s, the two factions declaring the planet's indepedence.

-- In 2361, the USS Potemkin attempted to contact the colony. The vessel was warned away with the threat that anyone beaming down to the surface would be killed."

Are there any other canon examples of Federation protectorates?

[brianeyci]

Are there any other canon examples of Federation protectorates?

I'm surprised that it doesn't happen more often given that the Feds place minimal priority on ground occupation forces.

The Federation has no way to coerce planets to stay in the Federation. This is a testament to the Federation's diplomatic abilities. Planets have no reason to stay in the Federation other than during an interstellar war during which they would need protection.

That being said, since the Federation doesn't subdue populations or install puppet governments and so on, Federation membership isn't that bad. You give away nothing, and you get the benefit of being protected by Starfleet when shit breaks loose. And all that technology.

The Federation can't be an instellar government, other than on the core planets and Earth. Even Vulcan could cede from the Federation and the Feds couldn't do anything to stop them.

Brian

[The Silence and I]

The Federation is capable of mounting some terrifically powerful shields when it feels it has cause to; I refer to TNG Season One "Angel One:"

In the episode a Romulan fleet/task force starts pushing the Federation, harassing a Neutral Zone border outpost. The Enterprise is called forth as a show of force; but they have to wrap up a small infection and some issues on Angel One, a woman ruled planet. One Starship arrives before the Enterprise to offer assistance, the USS Berlin.
Towards the end of the episode Data offers information suggesting a Star Fleet Outpost and the USS Berlin can withstand several Romulan "Battlecruisers" for many minutes--indeed, by the time he spoke to Riker again they still had 48 minutes before he determined they needed to leave Angel One; even at maximim Warp there is a discernable travel time between Angel One and the nearby border, and some time passed between Riker's original order and Data's follow up. A single Romulan Battlecruiser can down a Galaxy in less than five minutes easy, so the Outpost must have some terrific defenses.

[Vympel]

So in what episode is Turkana IV identified as a Federation Protectorate?

[frigidmagi]

Whilst officially a Federation protectorate, the planet's government began breaking down in the 2330s. Dozens of factions developed, and civil war broke out. The Turkana government gave emergency powers to the two largest factions, the Coalition and the Alliance, but they were quickly overthrown by those cadres, and the planet broke away from the Federation in the 2350s, the two factions declaring the planet's indepedence.

So basically a group of crimnals who overthrew the government told the Federation to stay away and it did?

Not impressed by the Federation in this at all. Given this event has a pattern, I'd have to say the posters of this board could rip dozens of planets away from the Feds without a single spacebattle.

[NecronLord]

The Federation is capable of mounting some terrifically powerful shields when it feels it has cause to; I refer to TNG Season One "Angel One:"

In the episode a Romulan fleet/task force starts pushing the Federation, harassing a Neutral Zone border outpost. The Enterprise is called forth as a show of force; but they have to wrap up a small infection and some issues on Angel One, a woman ruled planet. One Starship arrives before the Enterprise to offer assistance, the USS Berlin.
Towards the end of the episode Data offers information suggesting a Star Fleet Outpost and the USS Berlin can withstand several Romulan "Battlecruisers" for many minutes--indeed, by the time he spoke to Riker again they still had 48 minutes before he determined they needed to leave Angel One; even at maximim Warp there is a discernable travel time between Angel One and the nearby border, and some time passed between Riker's original order and Data's follow up. A single Romulan Battlecruiser can down a Galaxy in less than five minutes easy, so the Outpost must have some terrific defenses.

I call bullshit. The Romulans said themselves that they'd been in a self imposed isolation before The Neutral Zone. The warbird was only revealed in The Neutral Zone. Anything attacking in angel one would have been the far lesser vessels of earlier ages.

[brianeyci]

I call bullshit. The Romulans said themselves that they'd been in a self imposed isolation before The Neutral Zone. The warbird was only revealed in The Neutral Zone. Anything attacking in angel one would have been the far lesser vessels of earlier ages.

The Romulan "Battlecruiser" may have been the "old" Klingon D-7's. However, in DS9 we saw old D-7's still in service with the Klingons. The Romulans may have kept the old ships in service like you said, hiding the Warbird. Suffice it to say that the GCS is not 10x more powerful than an old D-7 given that three BOP's can destroy a GCS. Still powerful shields, even if they are using older battlecruisers.

Picard calls the attack "several Romulan Battlecruisers." Data uses plural when referring to the battlecruisers. So there is at least 2, and probably more given that Picard refers to them as several. So we have a low-end estimate of the shield being able to withstand the firepower of three old Klingon D-7's. Picard was also not worried about being outgunned by the D-7's. So, if 3 D-7's are as powerful as a GCS, a low-end estimate for the shield is that it is at least as powerful as a GCS shield.

The key here is the 48 minute figure. Given that a GCS's shields can be taken down in a few minutes from concentrated fire from 3 BOP, lasting "48 minutes" against 3 D-7's must mean that the outpost's shields are exponentially far more powerful than a GCS's shields.

<edit> Oh and the 3 BOP comes from the alternate universe where the GCS was a War GCS with weapons and shields far more powerful than in the standard timeline (the episode with the Enterprise-C in it). So a GCS in the normal timeline could possibly withstand two BOP. This is consistent with Generations, where one BOP with the Enterprise's shield frequency was able to force the Enterprise to crash land. </edit>

Brian

[The Silence and I]

Thank you brianeyci, I was going to say more or less the same thing.

[TheDarkling]

So in what episode is Turkana IV identified as a Federation Protectorate?

It isn't, the most we know is that it was an Earth Colony (a term only used one other time in TNG+ to describe a human settled world that wasn't part of the Federation).

[teleguy]

Oh an I disagree with planetary shielding. We have no evidence of planetary shielding other than the weak "Thermal Shields" that can't even stand up to a 300 degree firestorm. A "Type-Four" deflector shield evidently doesn't sound very impressive to Baran, and is probably only used to stop transport and weak weapons.

Actually I forgot about this episode. In the TOS episode with the insane asylum and/or the prison they said that the prison was under a shield. It’s true that the shield didn’t surround the entire planet but it would be fairly easy to cover the planet with several of these shield projectors.

The shield surrounded the entire planet because they said:

The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet.

http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/72who ... ytrans.htm

[Gustav32Vasa]

Actually I forgot about this episode. In the TOS episode with the insane asylum and/or the prison they said that the prison was under a shield. It’s true that the shield didn’t surround the entire planet but it would be fairly easy to cover the planet with several of these shield projectors.

The shield surrounded the entire planet because they said:

The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet.

http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/72who ... ytrans.htm

Heh, oops.

Well in my defence I havent seen the episode in years.

[Kurgan]

Good call guys, I'd forgotten about those examples. Somebody should get those added to Mike's canon database if they aren't already in there...