Stephen Ira Behr's DS9 idea that Paramount shot down

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-10-31 06:11pm

I read in a Star Trek magazine once, in an inteview with Behr, that he planned to have the Dominion occupation of the station last a whole season. Paramount wanted the whole arc to be resolved quickly, and in the end they 'comprimised' on 6 episodes.

Who else thinks that A: Behr was screwed over and B: things would have been more interesting if the Dominion occupation had lasted a whole season?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-10-31 07:03pm

Whilst a fundamentally cool idea, (I loved the characters interacting on Terok Nor.) I don't think it could have worked for a whole season. Because if you're going to show the villains as often as they did, they need more to do than sit there and make quips at each other.

Though a few failed attempts to take it back would be interesting, who would see it coming?

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2004-10-31 07:31pm

That would have been a marvelous arc. For once, just once, I'd like to see the Federation hopelessly throw forces against an enemy, only to be slaughtered at the gates. Seeing the characters lose hope would have been a very cool sub-plot, and if the Dominion did shut down the minefield and send its fleet through, that would mean the Federation would have to at least do its own dirty work, rather than relying on a crappy Deux Ex Machina.

In fact, I think I'd do much better writing these series than the TMTC that they employ.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-31 08:07pm

I didn't happen because as I pointed out in an earlier thread, Paramount hates serialized series, especially in regard to Trek.

Anyway, this would have made for an interesting storytelling possibility and given a greater sense of urgency to the Federation's survival against the Dominion that, to be honest, was lost after those inital episodes.

The same goes with the end of the war. Ron Moore was a big proponent of the war and pushed for it to last as long as possible, which it did up until the final episode. But I also partially feel that the war should have ended halfway through the season, so that postwar issues could be brought up as well as Bajor joining the Federation.

Thankfully, the DS9-relaunch is doing a fine job of dealing with those issues.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-31 08:11pm

JME2 wrote:I didn't happen because as I pointed out in an earlier thread, Paramount hates serialized series, especially in regard to Trek.

Anyway, this would have made for an interesting storytelling possibility and given a greater sense of urgency to the Federation's survival against the Dominion that, to be honest, was lost after those inital episodes.

The same goes with the end of the war. Ron Moore was a big proponent of the war and pushed for it to last as long as possible, which it did up until the final episode. But I also partially feel that the war should have ended halfway through the season, so that postwar issues could be brought up as well as Bajor joining the Federation.

Thankfully, the DS9-relaunch is doing a fine job of dealing with those issues.

DS9-relaunch?

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-10-31 08:19pm

Praxis wrote:
JME2 wrote:I didn't happen because as I pointed out in an earlier thread, Paramount hates serialized series, especially in regard to Trek.

Anyway, this would have made for an interesting storytelling possibility and given a greater sense of urgency to the Federation's survival against the Dominion that, to be honest, was lost after those inital episodes.

The same goes with the end of the war. Ron Moore was a big proponent of the war and pushed for it to last as long as possible, which it did up until the final episode. But I also partially feel that the war should have ended halfway through the season, so that postwar issues could be brought up as well as Bajor joining the Federation.

Thankfully, the DS9-relaunch is doing a fine job of dealing with those issues.
DS9-relaunch?

In 2001, Pocket Books launched a series of DS9 novels that pick up the story where What You Leave Behind left off. In a sense, they're the 8th season of the series and continuing threads that were never resolved, from Bajor and the Federation to Kasidy's pregnancy as well as beginning new ones.

Here are the books published thus far that tie into the relaunch:

A Stitch in Time
The Lives of Dax
The Left Hand of Destiny -- Book I
The Left Hand of Destiny -- Book II
Avatar -- Book I
Avatar -- Book II
Section 31 -- Abyss
Gateways -- Demons of Aire and Darkness
Gateways -- Of Horn and Ivory
Mission Gamma -- Twilight
Mission Gamma -- This Gray Spirit
Mission Gamma -- Cathedral
Mission Gamma -- Lesser Evil
Rising Son
Unity
Worlds of Deep Space Nine -- Cardassia/Andor

Coming out next year:

Worlds of Deep Space Nine -- Trill/Bajor
Worlds of Deep Space Nine -- Ferenginar/The Dominion

Agent R · Post by **Agent R** » 2004-10-31 08:25pm

I think he means the post-DS9 novels.

I think it would have been a good idea to have the Dominion War last longer than it did. Although, SFX-wise, I don't think I could have handled seeing the same ships die in the same manner over and over again whenever an episode called for a fleet engagement.

EDIT: Damn, JME2 beat me to it!

Akira · Post by **Akira** » 2004-11-01 09:57am

JME2 wrote:In 2001, Pocket Books launched a series of DS9 novels that pick up the story where What You Leave Behind left off. In a sense, they're the 8th season of the series and continuing threads that were never resolved, from Bajor and the Federation to Kasidy's pregnancy as well as beginning new ones.

Here are the books published thus far that tie into the relaunch:

A Stitch in Time
The Lives of Dax
The Left Hand of Destiny -- Book I
The Left Hand of Destiny -- Book II
Avatar -- Book I
Avatar -- Book II
Section 31 -- Abyss
Gateways -- Demons of Aire and Darkness
Gateways -- Of Horn and Ivory
Mission Gamma -- Twilight
Mission Gamma -- This Gray Spirit
Mission Gamma -- Cathedral
Mission Gamma -- Lesser Evil
Rising Son
Unity
Worlds of Deep Space Nine -- Cardassia/Andor

Coming out next year:

Worlds of Deep Space Nine -- Trill/Bajor
Worlds of Deep Space Nine -- Ferenginar/The Dominion

I really hate that you can't make sense of what's going on in though books unless you have read all of them. and then the ones like Gateways and Section 31 don't make sense unless you've read all the other [non ds9] books in those sets.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-11-01 12:01pm

Gateways, I agree with you on. Section 31, no. The books, while featuring the then- four television crews going up against the orginization, were each self-contained stories, linked only by the shadowy covers and Section 31.

But yes, one does get lost by missing as much as one book, much as it was the same with missing a single, crucial DS9 episode whne it was on the air. To help combat that, Unity comes with a timeline that brings new and old readers up to speed on everything that's happened since What You Leave Behind.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-11-01 12:42pm

My best vision for a season-long occupation of Deep Space Nine would have been to see how the tensions on the station would have played out. I think Behr gave us a condensed version of how he wanted it to be, and we would have seen a far more gradual, gritter journey for Kira, as she battled against her instincts to lash out at the Dominion, and the way that her own people saw her. There would have been more time for a more insiduious corruption of Odo at the hands of the Female Changeling, and Quark... well, there was room perhaps for him to start out trying to appease the new Dominion masters of the station, and only later on would his conscience come into play, and his transformation into gun-toting Jem'Hadar slayer would happen more slowly.
The best exploration would have been of Gul Dukat, and his twin desires of wanting to be seen as a saviour to the Bajorans, whilst also wanting to enslave the lot of them once again. And of course, his complex relationships with Kira, his daughter, and his interplay with Weyoun.
A longer arc would have been a tremendous chance for Jake to grow as well. He could learn a lot about the bleaker side of life on the occupied Deep Space Nine, especially given how easy he appeared to have things before.

Off station- well, as JME2 and Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba have already pointed out, there'd be greater urgency and fear about the situation for Sisko and Co. Sisko in particular would have to face his fears about his son, and his shame at failing to hold on to his station (ok, so other officers might say he shouldn't feel shame, but every Captain hates to see his or her post taken by an enemy). There'd be the dynamic of Jadzia and Worf, and how their relationship would cope with the war, and with being apart from each other for extended periods of time.

The season could have ended with a great cliff-hanger- the Defiant racing to the station, perhaps backed up by a fleet this time, as the last few mines are being deactivated...

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-01 01:10pm

Sothis wrote:The season could have ended with a great cliff-hanger- the Defiant racing to the station, perhaps backed up by a fleet this time, as the last few mines are being deactivated...

Maybe they can have a real Battle for DS9 rather than a "Let's battle several light years away from DS9, even though this makes no sense tactically." And instead of having the fucking Prophet copout, the battle could be a long drawn out battle lasting the entire episode, and concluded in the next season's premiere. It would have been much better than how it went down originally.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-01 01:22pm

The Dominion Occupation of Terek Nor would have been more interesting if major elements of the Bajoran government sincerely thought they were better off with the Dominion and tried to eliminate or marginalize known pro-Federation personalities.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-11-01 02:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Dominion Occupation of Terek Nor would have been more interesting if major elements of the Bajoran government sincerely thought they were better off with the Dominion and tried to eliminate or marginalize known pro-Federation personalities.

But how likely was that to happen? Unless you wove it into a civil war on Bajor, stirred up the Dominion covertly?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-11-01 02:22pm

Sothis wrote:But how likely was that to happen?

The writers already did a similar storyline in season two's opening three-parter, the Circle Trilogy. I still think those were the best written DS9 episodes in the entire series, in terms of plot cohesion and consistency.

What you could do is start a movement in Bajor starting with Sisko's hallucinatory condemnations of the Bajoran Federation membership drive. You can have it influenced by the Fundies (who of course would believe the Emissary even if he was fucking nuts at the time). The Secular Government would have to deal with internal divisions as well as deal with the Dominion.

Or the flipside: instead, have the Fundies be the 'good guys' - hey, wars make for strange bedfellows - in that they resent the Dominion and would rather follow the Federation which is personified in their Emissary (Sisko). The government is divided in two camps: those who are Pro-Dominion because it is convenient, and those who are Pro-Federation for religious reasons.

Either way you start by adding subtle news from Bajor that society is being polarised on the issue of Federation membership or being neutral. The Dominion comes in, the Emissary abandons DS9 and thus Bajor, and thus the Pro-Dominion (or perhaps it is better to refer to them as Anti-Federation) camp feels their position is validated. The Resistance forms and a Civil War gets fought again. The Dominion of course influences their favoured camp, while the Pro-Federation camp is beleagured. Eventually the war comes to Bajor and the two camps go at it, while the Dominion and Federation fleets clash. When the Federation wins through, perhaps through the help of the Resistance, the other side becomes the terrorists which for most of the series we acquainted with the 'good guy' Bajorans fighting the good fight.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-01 02:24pm

Sothis wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The Dominion Occupation of Terek Nor would have been more interesting if major elements of the Bajoran government sincerely thought they were better off with the Dominion and tried to eliminate or marginalize known pro-Federation personalities.
But how likely was that to happen? Unless you wove it into a civil war on Bajor, stirred up the Dominion covertly?

National governments tend to act on self-interest. If they believe that the Dominion is going to win this war, it is clearly in their own best interests to suck up eagerly and quickly to the Dominion. It's not as far-fetched as you think, and the Dominion wouldn't have to stir it up covertly.

That's half the problem with Trek right there; there's always some malicious individual or shadowy alien agent making people act bad, when people have a history of acting bad all on their own. So why do we need these agents? Roddenberry's absurd notion of humanity "evolving" in just a few centuries to become creatures of shining nobility? Puh-lease.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2004-11-01 02:39pm

It would have been amusing if the annoyingly civilized and evolved Federals had to go all out against the Dominion and get in touch with thier savage inner self. ST is always best when they throw out the rulebook.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-11-01 05:05pm

Given how much of the war was actually done as a rather dreary character soap-opera —particularly the six-episode Occupation of Terok Nor storyline— we'd simply have gotten a 22-episode dreary character soap-opera based on the occupied Terok Nor.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-11-01 05:43pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Dominion Occupation of Terek Nor would have been more interesting if major elements of the Bajoran government sincerely thought they were better off with the Dominion and tried to eliminate or marginalize known pro-Federation personalities.

Most of the Bajorans worship the Prophets. I doubt that they would change that worship to the Founders.

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2004-11-01 06:07pm

Patrick Degan wrote:Given how much of the war was actually done as a rather dreary character soap-opera —particularly the six-episode Occupation of Terok Nor storyline— we'd simply have gotten a 22-episode dreary character soap-opera based on the occupied Terok Nor.

I felt that the occupation of Deep Space Nine would have allowed for greater character development, and the exploration of how the different parties handled the occupation. I didn't feel there was anything dreary about the six episode arc at all.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2004-11-01 10:35pm

If they focused on the occupation of the station for the majority of the 22 episode season it would have been difficult to come up with stories that dealt with quite a few of the main characters who were not on the station.

That would mean we'd get a lot of character development out of secondary and tertiary characters on the station while most of the supposed "stars" of the show were kind of bit players for an entire season.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-11-02 09:21am

The occupation only lasted 6 episodes? I always thought it was more than that.

How much time in universe did those 6 episodes cover?

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-11-02 12:32pm

Icehawk wrote:The occupation only lasted 6 episodes? I always thought it was more than that. How much time in universe did those 6 episodes cover?

About two months (The total time-frame from the start of the war to the re-taking of DS9 was five months, 3 of them off-screen).

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-11-03 02:51am

Sothis wrote:The season could have ended with a great cliff-hanger- the Defiant racing to the station, perhaps backed up by a fleet this time, as the last few mines are being deactivated...

That could very well have given The Best of Both Worlds a run for its money.