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Post by brianeyci »

SirNitram wrote:Yea, because Worf couldn't move his hand. Let's invent new capabilities when the knowns would work perfectly. Your knowledge of the scientific method is quite frankly pathetic.
I am not inventing a new capability. Look at the clip, and you'll see that the beam moves independent of Worf's hand for the frames before the camera focuses on the Ferengi. It is not too far a stretch to say that the beam moved independent of Worf's hand after the camera started focusing on the Ferengi. Do you attribute the movement of the beam to some random flaw in the phaser?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Ignorant bitching little whiner. You look at folks who design warships that explode from a few light hits, create weapons that would take years to actually be able to fight with, abandon everything about body armour, abandon everything about warship armor, forget everything about vehicles, and are such shitty combatants that they get into fisticuffs, and you can actually think this isn't indicative of massive stupidity.
No I don't, and I have already responded to many of your points above. I'll summarize now -- exploding from light hits, indicative of technical limitations of the Federation. Weapons that would take years to fight -- assisted aiming, until the Dominion came along and started using ground troops. Body armor -- limited usefulness. Warship armor -- deployed when the Dominion came. Vehicles -- not consistent with the way the Federation used its soldiers. It is indicative of massive stupidity, but not indicative that the Federation as a whole is stupid.
Here's a concept, dipshit: Military incompetence would be having the gear and using it badly. Dissolving your military and actively resisting it's return when it's needed is stupidity. Period.
Agreed. But that does not mean that the Federation as a whole is stupid. If you want to say that Starfleet is stupid, then fine.

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Post by SirNitram »

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Yea, because Worf couldn't move his hand. Let's invent new capabilities when the knowns would work perfectly. Your knowledge of the scientific method is quite frankly pathetic.
I am not inventing a new capability. Look at the clip, and you'll see that the beam moves independent of Worf's hand for the frames before the camera focuses on the Ferengi. It is not too far a stretch to say that the beam moved independent of Worf's hand after the camera started focusing on the Ferengi. Do you attribute the movement of the beam to some random flaw in the phaser?
We see the movement when we can't see his hand, doofus. Are you thinking he couldn't move his hand faster, or suffer a small twitch?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Ignorant bitching little whiner. You look at folks who design warships that explode from a few light hits, create weapons that would take years to actually be able to fight with, abandon everything about body armour, abandon everything about warship armor, forget everything about vehicles, and are such shitty combatants that they get into fisticuffs, and you can actually think this isn't indicative of massive stupidity.
No I don't, and I have already responded to many of your points above. I'll summarize now -- exploding from light hits, indicative of technical limitations of the Federation. Weapons that would take years to fight -- assisted aiming, until the Dominion came along and started using ground troops. Body armor -- limited usefulness. Warship armor -- deployed when the Dominion came. Vehicles -- not consistent with the way the Federation used its soldiers. It is indicative of massive stupidity, but not indicative that the Federation as a whole is stupid.
Assisted aiming! What a fucking pity it's useless at five meters! Heaven forbid they face a real infantry enemy.

Body armour is limited in usefulness? Metal plates would make hand phasers useless, or perhaps you watch the sequences when they have to use it like a welding torch to get through metal goes over your head?

Warship armor deployed when the Dominion came? Bullshit; they use ablative armour. On two designs(Defiant, Prometheus-A). The Federation's so stupid it's forgotten how to weld steel plates on.

Vechiles 'aren't consistant with how they use their soldiers'? Of course not; they use their soldiers with massive stupidity. Competence via combined arms would be against their doctorine of stupidity.

The Federation as a governing body has massive stupidity on every level. You can whine not every citizen is stupid, but the people we see certainly bubble over with it.
Here's a concept, dipshit: Military incompetence would be having the gear and using it badly. Dissolving your military and actively resisting it's return when it's needed is stupidity. Period.
Agreed. But that does not mean that the Federation as a whole is stupid. If you want to say that Starfleet is stupid, then fine.

Brian
And the Federation which funds it and performs it's R&D, and the citizens we've seen... Keep moving those goalposts, asshole.
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Post by The Silence and I »

SirNitram wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:<snip>
It's so small I consider it pretty much in line with a hand twitch, hence my disbelief. Besides, how does 'They have tracking that's so pathetic it can't hit someone five meters away' help the argument they're competent?
I can't answer for the effectiveness part, but I can show you these, which came out better than I thought they might:

First pic ~9/10 frames in
Second pic ~2/3 frames later
I'd post inline, but really don't want to push my band width, to see the difference "rightclick save as" and view them one after the other in an image viewer. You should notice Worf's hand moves a bit, but the beam moves a lot relative to the phaser emitter.
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Post by SirNitram »

I'm not seeing this big difference that can't be explained by watching his wrist, sorry.
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Post by The Silence and I »

SirNitram wrote:I'm not seeing this big difference that can't be explained by watching his wrist, sorry.
Le cry :cry: . I want better resolution damnit :evil:

I will do my best to show what I see, using the phaser top. I am positive there is a jump, but of course I need to offer more than my word. *Opens up fireworks*
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Post by brianeyci »

SirNitram wrote:We see the movement when we can't see his hand, doofus. Are you thinking he couldn't move his hand faster, or suffer a small twitch?
No, I am not thinking that. But if the beam does track before the screen goes off Worf eg the beam goes off-axis, then either the change in axis is some random fluke, or it is tracking, however limited.
Assisted aiming! What a fucking pity it's useless at five meters! Heaven forbid they face a real infantry enemy.

Body armour is limited in usefulness? Metal plates would make hand phasers useless, or perhaps you watch the sequences when they have to use it like a welding torch to get through metal goes over your head?

Warship armor deployed when the Dominion came? Bullshit; they use ablative armour. On two designs(Defiant, Prometheus-A). The Federation's so stupid it's forgotten how to weld steel plates on.

Vechiles 'aren't consistant with how they use their soldiers'? Of course not; they use their soldiers with massive stupidity. Competence via combined arms would be against their doctorine of stupidity.

The Federation as a governing body has massive stupidity on every level. You can whine not every citizen is stupid, but the people we see certainly bubble over with it.
If the Ferengi didn't duck, he would have been history. Assisted aiming is not useless -- there are other examples of Assisted aiming being used against small targets at a distance. More to come when I can find some screens of this episode.

I have already responded to these types of points before. It is up to you show that body armor can be made into something lightweight enough to resist phaser fire. Steel has not been demonstrated to resist phaser fire. They use their "soldiers" consistent with their methodology of warfare.
And the Federation which funds it and performs it's R&D, and the citizens we've seen... Keep moving those goalposts, asshole.
I am not trying to disprove stupidity. Obviously certain things the Federation does are stupid. However, I am saying that labelling the "Federation is stupid" does not nullify the Federation's other achievements.

In other words, I agree that the Federation is stupid, but that if you want to call the Federation stupid, be more specific, such as saying the Federation is militarily inept. All along I have not denied the Federation's military incompetence -- however what I have been trying to do is say that the Federation's "stupidity" militarily should be judged relative to the enemies the Federation had to face.

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Post by SirNitram »

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:We see the movement when we can't see his hand, doofus. Are you thinking he couldn't move his hand faster, or suffer a small twitch?
No, I am not thinking that. But if the beam does track before the screen goes off Worf eg the beam goes off-axis, then either the change in axis is some random fluke, or it is tracking, however limited.
As I've said, I've looked at the pictures provided, and I just don't see this 'assisted aiming' stuff. This 'assisted aiming' is beyond useless if it can't help you at 5 meters.
Assisted aiming! What a fucking pity it's useless at five meters! Heaven forbid they face a real infantry enemy.

Body armour is limited in usefulness? Metal plates would make hand phasers useless, or perhaps you watch the sequences when they have to use it like a welding torch to get through metal goes over your head?

Warship armor deployed when the Dominion came? Bullshit; they use ablative armour. On two designs(Defiant, Prometheus-A). The Federation's so stupid it's forgotten how to weld steel plates on.

Vechiles 'aren't consistant with how they use their soldiers'? Of course not; they use their soldiers with massive stupidity. Competence via combined arms would be against their doctorine of stupidity.

The Federation as a governing body has massive stupidity on every level. You can whine not every citizen is stupid, but the people we see certainly bubble over with it.
If the Ferengi didn't duck, he would have been history. Assisted aiming is not useless -- there are other examples of Assisted aiming being used against small targets at a distance. More to come when I can find some screens of this episode.
I will simply counter with more episodes where people discard their ranged weapons for fisticuffs. That's how useless phasers and disrupters are.
I have already responded to these types of points before. It is up to you show that body armor can be made into something lightweight enough to resist phaser fire. Steel has not been demonstrated to resist phaser fire. They use their "soldiers" consistent with their methodology of warfare.
'Steel has not been demonstrated to resist phaser fire!' Are you on crack, sirrah? Again, did you watch the sequences where they have to hold their phasers to metal walls and doors like a welding torch? 'Bu-bu-bu-but that's not steel!' Then use this super metal. Fucking duh. Not rocket science.

Their 'Methodology of warfare' is criminal incompetence. Go on, prove me wrong. They can't hold a narrow corridor, they toss aside their weapons and go fisticuffs, they miss at five meters, and they discarded combined arms. Show me where this 'methodolgy' is anything but criminal incompetence. Please.
And the Federation which funds it and performs it's R&D, and the citizens we've seen... Keep moving those goalposts, asshole.
I am not trying to disprove stupidity. Obviously certain things the Federation does are stupid. However, I am saying that labelling the "Federation is stupid" does not nullify the Federation's other achievements.
And being able to talk friendly aliens into continuing to being friendly does not grant anything like competence in the things actually brought up, asscrab. Thanks for the red herring.
In other words, I agree that the Federation is stupid, but that if you want to call the Federation stupid, be more specific, such as saying the Federation is militarily inept. All along I have not denied the Federation's military incompetence -- however what I have been trying to do is say that the Federation's "stupidity" militarily should be judged relative to the enemies the Federation had to face.

Brian
Again. Militarily inept would be having the tools and using them poorly. Their industry, requisition, and governmental body must all be criminally stupid to get where they are, and every soldier must be a moron whose never read anything about the Old Earth days.
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Post by The Silence and I »

First Cap
I tried to trace the edge of the phaser case, and the line of Worf's thumb where he holds the phaser. The phaser case line should never change length and the thumb line should not change unless Worf alters his grip.
I then connected a line to those two tracings to demonstrate Worf's holding angle (note, this is a reference only, I do not mean to demonstrate Worf was pointing the phaser that direction) and traced the path of the phaser beam.
Second Cap
Here I did the same thing for the second cap, Worf's hand did indeed move.
Vector Magic
Here I combined the vector drawings (changing the color for ease of sighting) onto the second cap. I would be far more confident of the precision if these were higher resolution, (Perhaps someone with the DVDs can help out here?) but assuming this is correct (and it looks right to my eye--take that how you will) Worf's phaser did something all by itself.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Brian, according to you, as long as somebody can do SOMETHING right, it's not stupid? So people who can tie their own shoelaces can't be stupid? How about people who can walk without tripping?

Hey, that guy just lit a firecracker in his left hand and didn't let go until it blew up! But he's not stupid! I mean, yesterday I saw him programming his VCR and he didn't screw THAT up! He's just incompetent with his left hand.
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Post by Darth Wong »

This "assisted aiming" idea is nonsense. If phasers auto-aimed at living targets, they would be incredibly dangerous without some kind of IFF system. Moreover, the fact that a Ferengi ducked out of the way wouldn't bother such a system at all, unless you seriously don't understand how fast computers can calculate such things.
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Post by Batman »

What I think Brian is going on a bout is a system that can direct the beam, but only within a very narrow cone of fire (which would be contradicted by the instances of the phaser beam being severely off-axis).
That does indeed beg the question how does the phaser know what the wielder is actually shooting for in the first place?
As for the incredible calculation abilities of computers, if the device that processes that data suck at making use of it that doesn't help all that much.
I mean how often do Trek ships miss other ships sitting right on top of them?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Batman wrote:What I think Brian is going on a bout is a system that can direct the beam, but only within a very narrow cone of fire (which would be contradicted by the instances of the phaser beam being severely off-axis).
That does indeed beg the question how does the phaser know what the wielder is actually shooting for in the first place?
Precisely. Let's imagine the following situation:

Code: Select all

++++++++++++++++
|              |
|    Y Y       |
|              |
|              |
|              |
|              |
|              |
|         X    |
|              |
|              |
|              |
|          X   |
|              |
++++++++++++++++
Say you are team "X", and you're shooting at one of the members of team "Y". Problem: one of your teammates is ahead of you, using a piece of irregular terrain for cover. if your gun shoots straight, this is not a problem: you simply aim for one of the "Y" team and shoot. But if your gun "auto-aims", what's it going to do? What if it decides to shoot your teammates in the fucking back?

And why does Worf miss during his Holodeck target practice by such small amounts while Guinan hits the target reliably? He just forgot to turn on his auto-aim? She cheated because you're not supposed to use auto-aim? How do you turn it on and off? Why didn't he accuse her of cheating?
As for the incredible calculation abilities of computers, if the device that processes that data suck at making use of it that doesn't help all that much.

I mean how often do Trek ships miss other ships sitting right on top of them?
Or for that matter, how do Federation fighters get within spitting range of enemy ships without getting blown away?
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Post by The Silence and I »

I think the visual evidence we are presented with indicates there is some kind of hand-independent aiming. "Rascals" is not the end all be all for available proof, but I urge you look at the scribbles I drew.

There are a few ways to explain known issues with this "assisted aiming."

I propose the idea that phasers, being widely mutable, can be custom tailored to an individual's firing style. We have seen them opened up in moments, and two buttons are all that are needed to write simple programs and/or execute commands.

Someone like Worf, being a proud Klingon warrior, may favor a phaser set up that requires greater skill to use--he may well favor a faily narrow cone for his auto aiming set up. Just enough to correct minor errors, but requiring his aim be spot on (or more so than most) most of the time.

Considering Team X's problem; target differentiation may be very easy using Federation technology. A broach sized communicator can house a universal translator (and subspace transmitter and an apparently powerful battery)--a device that reads brainwaves to determine intent behind words, and builds a vocabulary from that. AFAIK there is no direct evidence for such technology used in phaser side arms, but there is room aplenty (Data's phaser has enough room to add one of his subprocessors to, and there was still more open space) and such a device can surely tell if the user wants to shoot something or not, thus allieviating Team X's problem.

Adding to the mutability, lets say you don't like holding your wrist at the angle needed to fire the early TNG phasers. You can tell the emitter to automatically fire at a downward angle specified by you. The auto aiming feature can work from there, and it too may be modified.

The muse of writing is not with me today, so I will try to summarize with my proposed interpritation of why the Ferengi ducked successfully:

Worf, a proud warrior who dislikes soft, user friendly devices on weapons, has set his phaser to correct for less than (just some number I'm pulling out of my hat) 3 degrees in any direction. He would turn it off like he does in the shooting range, except he realizes the damn thing is very difficult to aim without--he's not that proud.
The Ferengi beams in and he takes a hasty aim which is off by too much for the auto correct. He misses, but tries to ease the beam into the Ferengi, who begins ducking away from the beam now moving toward him.* He manages to sweep the beam into its required cone, and it starts auto correcting, but before it can reach the Ferengi the beam cuts off, and Worf is stunned.

*For some reason, possible related to the stabilizing system referred to in the description of a phaser rifle, phaser beams are AFAIK (and I only know TOS and TNG, DS9 is sadly something I read about only) never used to rapidly sweep to and fro on normal settings. Worf may not be able to twitch his hand and sweep the beam into the boarder like I would with a laser pointer. Whatever property that causes this may be inherent to the beam too, thus the "assisted aiming" cannot rapidly sweep into the guy either.
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Post by Batman »

The Silence and I wrote:I think the visual evidence we are presented with indicates there is some kind of hand-independent aiming. "Rascals" is not the end all be all for available proof, but I urge you look at the scribbles I drew.
Phasers firing off-axis is a given. Nobody contests that.
There are a few ways to explain known issues with this "assisted aiming."
I propose the idea that phasers, being widely mutable, can be custom tailored to an individual's firing style. We have seen them opened up in moments, and two buttons are all that are needed to write simple programs and/or execute commands.
Probelm being that brianeyci brought up examples of the same phaser firing differently off-axis in the same episode in the hands of the same shooter. Either the Fed's have really weird ideas about handling weapons, they are variably inaccurate to the point where it's a wonder they ever hit anything at all (which might actually be the explanation for their lousy marksmanship :) ), or there actually is something to Brian's assisted aiming theory. Which is why I originally accepted it (especially as it made no difference WRT Fed stupidity).
Someone like Worf, being a proud Klingon warrior, may favor a phaser set up that requires greater skill to use--he may well favor a faily narrow cone for his auto aiming set up. Just enough to correct minor errors, but requiring his aim be spot on (or more so than most) most of the time.
Stupid but believable.
Considering Team X's problem; target differentiation may be very easy using Federation technology. A broach sized communicator can house a universal translator (and subspace transmitter and an apparently powerful battery)--a device that reads brainwaves to determine intent behind words, and builds a vocabulary from that. AFAIK there is no direct evidence for such technology used in phaser side arms, but there is room aplenty (Data's phaser has enough room to add one of his subprocessors to, and there was still more open space) and such a device can surely tell if the user wants to shoot something or not, thus allieviating Team X's problem.
Small problem-there's no evidence for the phaser firing anywhere else except where the emitter happens to be 'facing' (given the way both hand and especially shipborne strip phasers behave I consider the something along the lines of modern active phassed array radars in operation).
Adding to the mutability, lets say you don't like holding your wrist at the angle needed to fire the early TNG phasers. You can tell the emitter to automatically fire at a downward angle specified by you. The auto aiming feature can work from there, and it too may be modified.
Works, and explains the variations in beam angle. Doesn't explain how the phaser knows what you're firing at, though.
The muse of writing is not with me today, so I will try to summarize with my proposed interpritation of why the Ferengi ducked successfully:
Worf, a proud warrior who dislikes soft, user friendly devices on weapons, has set his phaser to correct for less than (just some number I'm pulling out of my hat) 3 degrees in any direction. He would turn it off like he does in the shooting range, except he realizes the damn thing is very difficult to aim without--he's not that proud.
The Ferengi beams in and he takes a hasty aim which is off by too much for the auto correct. He misses, but tries to ease the beam into the Ferengi, who begins ducking away from the beam now moving toward him.* He manages to sweep the beam into its required cone, and it starts auto correcting, but before it can reach the Ferengi the beam cuts off, and Worf is stunned.
Works for me, which is why I originally accepted Brian's assisted aiming theory. Leaves the question how the phaser knows what in blazes Whorf intends to hit.
*For some reason, possible related to the stabilizing system referred to in the description of a phaser rifle, phaser beams are AFAIK (and I only know TOS and TNG, DS9 is sadly something I read about only) never used to rapidly sweep to and fro on normal settings.
A stabilization system that means you can't swing the rifle? That's stupid even for the Feds...
Worf may not be able to twitch his hand and sweep the beam into the boarder like I would with a laser pointer. Whatever property that causes this may be inherent to the beam too, thus the "assisted aiming" cannot rapidly sweep into the guy either.
So sweep from the elbow. Phasers are freaking beam weapons. We have repeatedly seen phasers fire for more than a second. Easily enough to to at least a limited-angle sweep. Even if it only results in stuns even on kill levels, who cares? At least the target is incapacitated. Hell, the tender-hearted Federation would propably prefer that.
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Post by The Silence and I »

Batman wrote:
The Silence and I wrote:I think the visual evidence we are presented with indicates there is some kind of hand-independent aiming. "Rascals" is not the end all be all for available proof, but I urge you look at the scribbles I drew.
Phasers firing off-axis is a given. Nobody contests that.
That is not what I referred to. I believe in "assisted aiming," but that belief is contested.
There are a few ways to explain known issues with this "assisted aiming."
I propose the idea that phasers, being widely mutable, can be custom tailored to an individual's firing style. We have seen them opened up in moments, and two buttons are all that are needed to write simple programs and/or execute commands.
Probelm being that brianeyci brought up examples of the same phaser firing differently off-axis in the same episode in the hands of the same shooter. Either the Fed's have really weird ideas about handling weapons, they are variably inaccurate to the point where it's a wonder they ever hit anything at all (which might actually be the explanation for their lousy marksmanship :) ), or there actually is something to Brian's assisted aiming theory. Which is why I originally accepted it (especially as it made no difference WRT Fed stupidity).
I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say here; you seem to be listing the very reasons I believe in "assisted aiming" as if I was unawares of them. Or something, I'm not really sure.
Are you trying to say that differences in off-access shots in the same episode disallow the use of programs or custom tailored settings? If so that is, with all respect, stupid. By programs I mean telling the phaser to default to a certain fire angle, or to automatically track within a certain cone, etc. I do not mean loading and running Phaser Default Angle 3, now run Default Angle 7 and so on within a battle.
Someone like Worf, being a proud Klingon warrior, may favor a phaser set up that requires greater skill to use--he may well favor a faily narrow cone for his auto aiming set up. Just enough to correct minor errors, but requiring his aim be spot on (or more so than most) most of the time.
Stupid but believable.
I thought so. Although in fairness, I see where I would want to make such a claim as well.
Considering Team X's problem; target differentiation may be very easy using Federation technology. A broach sized communicator can house a universal translator (and subspace transmitter and an apparently powerful battery)--a device that reads brainwaves to determine intent behind words, and builds a vocabulary from that. AFAIK there is no direct evidence for such technology used in phaser side arms, but there is room aplenty (Data's phaser has enough room to add one of his subprocessors to, and there was still more open space) and such a device can surely tell if the user wants to shoot something or not, thus allieviating Team X's problem.
Small problem-there's no evidence for the phaser firing anywhere else except where the emitter happens to be 'facing' (given the way both hand and especially shipborne strip phasers behave I consider the something along the lines of modern active phassed array radars in operation).
Ah, a misunderstanding I think. I was not trying to claim the phaser would figure out who you want to hit and simply hit them--like gaining a phaser lock on starships--I meant only within the cone of assisted aiming would this come into play. For example Team X's dilemma is that there are potentially two targets within their cone of assisted fire; and one happens to be on their side. This would allow the phaser to realize the team member wants to hit target A, not target B. But the computer would not track anything outside the cone, something like an extra safety feature; not only do you have to want to hit it, you have to point in that direction as well (I can see times where this could come in handy).
Adding to the mutability, lets say you don't like holding your wrist at the angle needed to fire the early TNG phasers. You can tell the emitter to automatically fire at a downward angle specified by you. The auto aiming feature can work from there, and it too may be modified.
Works, and explains the variations in beam angle. Doesn't explain how the phaser knows what you're firing at, though.
IMHO this explains why different people hold phasers at different angles for a level shot, but it does not explain why the angle on one phaser varies within an episode (I suspect you know this, I am attempting to avoid miscommunication). For the latter, my interpritation requires "assisted aiming." For target differentiation, see above.
The muse of writing is not with me today, so I will try to summarize with my proposed interpritation of why the Ferengi ducked successfully:
Worf, a proud warrior who dislikes soft, user friendly devices on weapons, has set his phaser to correct for less than (just some number I'm pulling out of my hat) 3 degrees in any direction. He would turn it off like he does in the shooting range, except he realizes the damn thing is very difficult to aim without--he's not that proud.
The Ferengi beams in and he takes a hasty aim which is off by too much for the auto correct. He misses, but tries to ease the beam into the Ferengi, who begins ducking away from the beam now moving toward him.* He manages to sweep the beam into its required cone, and it starts auto correcting, but before it can reach the Ferengi the beam cuts off, and Worf is stunned.
Works for me, which is why I originally accepted Brian's assisted aiming theory. Leaves the question how the phaser knows what in blazes Whorf intends to hit.
Hm. You seem to be asking more than simple A or B target differentiation, yes? I will theorize, and see what you think.

Forward sensors on the phaser (very obvious on the Nemesis model, though not all agree it is infact a sensor. Also plenty of room for one within the bulky forward emitter area on TNG models) generate a picture centered on the specified cone, and object recognition programs map outlines of all available targets within the cone. The brainwave reader forms a picture of what Worf is looking at and compares objects. Worf concentrates on his target, and the brainwave reader assigns this emphasis to one target on its mapped image. There you go.

I just cooked this up, but I already like it :) If the image recognition system (hey, all this has to fit in one small weapon) has difficulty with some objects, it may not be able to track effectively, resulting in misses around areas of cover or during high speed movements (swinging the phaser onto target very quickly may confuse it for those precious fractions of a second).
*For some reason, possible related to the stabilizing system referred to in the description of a phaser rifle, phaser beams are AFAIK (and I only know TOS and TNG, DS9 is sadly something I read about only) never used to rapidly sweep to and fro on normal settings.
A stabilization system that means you can't swing the rifle? That's stupid even for the Feds...
I am beginning to favor assigning this property to the beam itself. Stabilization of the actual gun may exist, but only to nullify small twitches. It may also only be on the rifle.
Worf may not be able to twitch his hand and sweep the beam into the boarder like I would with a laser pointer. Whatever property that causes this may be inherent to the beam too, thus the "assisted aiming" cannot rapidly sweep into the guy either.
So sweep from the elbow. Phasers are freaking beam weapons. We have repeatedly seen phasers fire for more than a second. Easily enough to to at least a limited-angle sweep. Even if it only results in stuns even on kill levels, who cares? At least the target is incapacitated. Hell, the tender-hearted Federation would propably prefer that.
This is why I am favoring the beam as the source of this handicapping "stabilization." How many time have you watched a phaser fight and thought, "man, give me a phaser and I'll hit everyone within a second flat!" ? I know I've done it, if someone shows anything I can hit it with a laser pointer--simply because it is a beam, it's not like I can aim the tiny thing that well. Well, I now think it takes some considerable force to actually do that, and the beam is the cause.
For starters, the beam always moves smoothly; no human hand I know of is that steady for that long.
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Post by Batman »

There are a few ways to explain known issues with this "assisted aiming."
I propose the idea that phasers, being widely mutable, can be custom tailored to an individual's firing style. We have seen them opened up in moments, and two buttons are all that are needed to write simple programs and/or execute commands.
Probelm being that brianeyci brought up examples of the same phaser firing differently off-axis in the same episode in the hands of the same shooter. Either the Fed's have really weird ideas about handling weapons, they are variably inaccurate to the point where it's a wonder they ever hit anything at all (which might actually be the explanation for their lousy marksmanship :) ), or there actually is something to Brian's assisted aiming theory. Which is why I originally accepted it (especially as it made no difference WRT Fed stupidity).
I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say here; you seem to be listing the very reasons I believe in "assisted aiming" as if I was unawares of them. Or something, I'm not really sure.
Are you trying to say that differences in off-access shots in the same episode disallow the use of programs or custom tailored settings?
No. I'm saying that doing so is another example of the Feds being stupid.
If, for example, a particular user is comfortable with his Type II firing 17 degrees downward (completely arbitrary assumption) he'd have to be rather stupid to reconfigure his phaser to fire 23 degrees to the left later on.
If so that is, with all respect, stupid. By programs I mean telling the phaser to default to a certain fire angle
And I heartily agree. The problem bein that's not what happens.
, or to automatically track within a certain cone, etc. I do not mean loading and running Phaser Default Angle 3, now run Default Angle 7 and so on within a battle.
The problem remaining how does the phaser know what to track in the first place.
Small problem-there's no evidence for the phaser firing anywhere else except where the emitter happens to be 'facing' (given the way both hand and especially shipborne strip phasers behave I consider the something along the lines of modern active phassed array radars in operation).
Ah, a misunderstanding I think. I was not trying to claim the phaser would figure out who you want to hit and simply hit them--like gaining a phaser lock on starships--I meant only within the cone of assisted aiming would this come into play. For example Team X's dilemma is that there are potentially two targets within their cone of assisted fire; and one happens to be on their side. This would allow the phaser to realize the team member wants to hit target A, not target B.
How?
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Post by Batman »

The Silence and I wrote:Ah, a misunderstanding I think. I was not trying to claim the phaser would figure out who you want to hit and simply hit them--like gaining a phaser lock on starships--I meant only within the cone of assisted aiming would this come into play.
And how exactly would it come into play there?
For example Team X's dilemma is that there are potentially two targets within their cone of assisted fire; and one happens to be on their side. This would allow the phaser to realize the team member wants to hit target A, not target B.
Bullshit. Everything within LOS of the team member is a potential target. The phaser knowing what the shooter is aiming at requires the phaser to read the shooters mind. or some never-ever-mentioned target-desination mechanism.
But the computer would not track anything outside the cone, something like an extra safety feature;
So? Everything inside the cone is still a potential target.
not only do you have to want to hit it,
Which would require the phaser to read your mind, which yo have no evidence for.
you have to point in that direction as well (I can see times where this could come in handy).
I sure as hell hope so. A weapon damaging a target you're not even aiming
at is insanely dangerous.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Silence and I wrote:I think the visual evidence we are presented with indicates there is some kind of hand-independent aiming. "Rascals" is not the end all be all for available proof, but I urge you look at the scribbles I drew.
Saying that you think it is so does not actually make it so. We've seen that a "bipolar torch" (a device which is a tool, not a weapon and therefore has no conceivable use for an auto-aiming system, particularly when being used to cut a hole in a door) also fires considerably off-axis, and consistently so. It seems indisputable that some of these devices are simply designed to fire that way. Real evidence of auto-aiming would be a beam that noticeably follows a moving target during a firing sequence: something we have never seen.
There are a few ways to explain known issues with this "assisted aiming."

I propose the idea that phasers, being widely mutable, can be custom tailored to an individual's firing style. We have seen them opened up in moments, and two buttons are all that are needed to write simple programs and/or execute commands.

Someone like Worf, being a proud Klingon warrior, may favor a phaser set up that requires greater skill to use--he may well favor a faily narrow cone for his auto aiming set up. Just enough to correct minor errors, but requiring his aim be spot on (or more so than most) most of the time.
Speculation to support speculation. See Occam's Razor.
Considering Team X's problem; target differentiation may be very easy using Federation technology. A broach sized communicator can house a universal translator (and subspace transmitter and an apparently powerful battery)--a device that reads brainwaves to determine intent behind words, and builds a vocabulary from that. AFAIK there is no direct evidence for such technology used in phaser side arms, but there is room aplenty (Data's phaser has enough room to add one of his subprocessors to, and there was still more open space) and such a device can surely tell if the user wants to shoot something or not, thus allieviating Team X's problem.
Purely speculative nonsense. See Occam's Razor.
Adding to the mutability, lets say you don't like holding your wrist at the angle needed to fire the early TNG phasers. You can tell the emitter to automatically fire at a downward angle specified by you. The auto aiming feature can work from there, and it too may be modified.
Again, more speculative nonsense; that explanation works just fine with a manual firing angle adjustment and without the "auto aiming" system.
The muse of writing is not with me today, so I will try to summarize with my proposed interpritation of why the Ferengi ducked successfully:

Worf, a proud warrior who dislikes soft, user friendly devices on weapons, has set his phaser to correct for less than (just some number I'm pulling out of my hat) 3 degrees in any direction. He would turn it off like he does in the shooting range, except he realizes the damn thing is very difficult to aim without--he's not that proud.
Pure speculation.
The Ferengi beams in and he takes a hasty aim which is off by too much for the auto correct. He misses, but tries to ease the beam into the Ferengi, who begins ducking away from the beam now moving toward him.* He manages to sweep the beam into its required cone, and it starts auto correcting, but before it can reach the Ferengi the beam cuts off, and Worf is stunned.
More pure speculation.
*For some reason, possible related to the stabilizing system referred to in the description of a phaser rifle, phaser beams are AFAIK (and I only know TOS and TNG, DS9 is sadly something I read about only) never used to rapidly sweep to and fro on normal settings. Worf may not be able to twitch his hand and sweep the beam into the boarder like I would with a laser pointer. Whatever property that causes this may be inherent to the beam too, thus the "assisted aiming" cannot rapidly sweep into the guy either.
Yet more pure speculation.

So far all you have to support your interpretation is, as I have said, purely speculative bullshit. Your argument is "well, there are no controls on a phaser to turn this function on and off, no one has ever mentioned it, and there is no real hard evidence that it exists whatsoever, but if you invent a whole lot of more speculative bullshit, even to the point that phasers become fucking mind-reading devices, then the whole unnecessary pile of theories at least becomes sort of self-consistent."
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Post by The Silence and I »

^^Of course it is all speculation. That was the point!^^

Look, I don't want to put thoughts into your head Mr. Wong, but I am getting the impression you are forgetting something rather important: manual phaser angle adjustment cannot fit the bill. Something else must account for what we see.

Posted earlier in this thread is proof that the same phaser fires at a different off-axis angle in the same episode. But hey, perhaps buttons were messed with while we were not looking, maybe Riker felt like changing the angle his phaser fires at [just never mind that would preclude any reasonable ability to hit a target at range i.e. if Riker did that he would have missed]. Oh yeah, there's more: Worf's phaser beam moves independantly of his hand, while he is still firing, also posted earlier in this thread.

And don't forget the 'soft' evidence: damn good accuracy with unaimable weapons. "Arsenal of Freedom," explain the ability of anyone on-planet except Data to hit the drones on the first try. Insurrection, again, how did anyone except Data hit those moving drones, on the first try, with a single pulse? Even Troi managed, if she is a competent shooter I'll be surprised. That's off my head at 12:40 a.m., but I know there is more.

You seem to dislike "assisted aiming," well ok, where is your explanation for the events above? Remember, the argument for "assisted aiming" merely includes off axis shots, that is not the entire body of evidence.
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Post by The Silence and I »

Batman, this:
Bullshit. Everything within LOS of the team member is a potential target. The phaser knowing what the shooter is aiming at requires the phaser to read the shooters mind. or some never-ever-mentioned target-desination mechanism.
plus this:
So? Everything inside the cone is still a potential target.
makes me scatch my head.

I thought I said something very simple: the supposed targetting computer will only pay attemtion to targets within the specifed supposed cone. WTH are you going on about?
The bloody phaser computer can only see what is inside the cone! Much like looking through a cardboard tube; you can't see much to either side, can you?
In one response you seem to have trouble with this, in another you referre to the cone properly. I don't understand. :?


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Phasers make little sense, occam's razor is of limited use as Federation treknology favors the more complicated solution and the offered single statement answers are not answers. I am trying to brainstorm here, and all I get is: 'that is pure speculation, and (because I'm not addressing key problems) this much simpler statement works better.'
It is speculation, based on what I think could work, but I see no attempts to offer a more sound explanation.

Now, forget this thread for a moment, what do you choose between an internally consistent and fully functional theory based on speculation and extrapolation and nothing else? Do you choose nothing?
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Silence and I wrote:^^Of course it is all speculation. That was the point!^^
And you do not understand how the necessity to add ridiculous speculative inventions such as a mind-reading device to the phaser makes you theory a house of cards?
Look, I don't want to put thoughts into your head Mr. Wong, but I am getting the impression you are forgetting something rather important: manual phaser angle adjustment cannot fit the bill. Something else must account for what we see.
Sure; a cheap mechanism that isn't very well fixed in the housing, or (more likely) a Trekkie rush to judgement based on small hand movements that are not particularly obvious on video. But I guess that's less reasonable to you than a device which now must incorporate mind-reading capabilities :roll:
Posted earlier in this thread is proof that the same phaser fires at a different off-axis angle in the same episode. But hey, perhaps buttons were messed with while we were not looking, maybe Riker felt like changing the angle his phaser fires at [just never mind that would preclude any reasonable ability to hit a target at range i.e. if Riker did that he would have missed].
Actually, that collage of pictures seemed to come from several different episodes, and he didn't bother naming them. In any case, the Type-I is so small that it would be difficult to establish the actual firing angle. You can barely see the part protruding from his hand.
Oh yeah, there's more: Worf's phaser beam moves independantly of his hand, while he is still firing, also posted earlier in this thread.
And yet this adjustment is incredibly slow, particularly given the fact that the target doesn't even start dodging until after this supposed auto-angle adjustment takes place. If it is an auto-aiming system, then it can only track at a few degrees per second, which means it's utterly useless and one must ask how one could conceivably design a system that works so slowly. You would need to sweep around the target forever to score a hit.

Since his hand is never actually perfectly still in that picture, how do you know he's not just barely adjusting his wrist? His earlier movements are bulk movements; his entire arm moves. But you can't find two frames in that sequence where his hand is perfectly still, so you are interpreting the cessation of bulk arm movements as the phaser itself being perfectly still.
And don't forget the 'soft' evidence: damn good accuracy with unaimable weapons.
Since real-life circus trickshooters can do things like snap-shooting dimes with enough training, this proves nothing. Everyone in the TNG era has gone through years of training, and on a beam weapon you can "sweep" to the target. And your argument relies on the "holding back" theory to explain why this mechanism results in these near-misses, always the most pathetic of all sci-fi excuses to support an argument.
"Arsenal of Freedom," explain the ability of anyone on-planet except Data to hit the drones on the first try. Insurrection, again, how did anyone except Data hit those moving drones, on the first try, with a single pulse? Even Troi managed, if she is a competent shooter I'll be surprised. That's off my head at 12:40 a.m., but I know there is more.
The fact that those things approached to such insanely close range that they could accurately fire lightweight tags at people and even get swatted by Worf using his phaser lke a baseball bat didn't register with you? :roll:
You seem to dislike "assisted aiming," well ok, where is your explanation for the events above? Remember, the argument for "assisted aiming" merely includes off axis shots, that is not the entire body of evidence.
Then provide real evidence, because you haven't provided any.
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Post by Lord Revan »

I know it not canon, but in the Elite Force games type II beam shake as you fire the weapon. So it's not too big of leap of faith to conclude that if phaser is poorly maintained and/or damaged this shaking increase to a point that it would explain all off-axis fire incedents.
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Post by The Silence and I »

The fact that those things approached to such insanely close range that they could accurately fire lightweight tags at people and even get swatted by Worf using his phaser lke a baseball bat didn't register with you?
Nit pick: they were shot down at greater ranges too, not just spitting distance. Unfortunately this is best demonstrated by watching the film, screen caps are no good because of camera cuts. Regardless, the range was not more than 15 meters or so, but off the cuff shots without using any sights that were provided resulted in a level of accuracy that impresses me.
And you do not understand how the necessity to add ridiculous speculative inventions such as a mind-reading device to the phaser makes you theory a house of cards?
Of course I realize this, I come up with these theories because I enjoy it, and it helps me develop my understanding of Star Trek. I see a problem that cannot be easily reconciled and I come up with some crazy thing that can explain it. It goes without saying it is a house of cards, and I wouldn't even post it except my hope is to jog someone's memory or start some line of thinking that results in a more stable theory. A form of fun brainstorming, if you will, with the added benefit of critical readers.

Would you honestly prefere a conclusion that doesn't explain common occurances, or concluding no rational conclusion can be made?

As for 'mind reading', the universal translator establishes the level of technology needed to make this work. I didn't make that part up completely.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Silence and I wrote:Nit pick: they were shot down at greater ranges too, not just spitting distance. Unfortunately this is best demonstrated by watching the film, screen caps are no good because of camera cuts. Regardless, the range was not more than 15 meters or so, but off the cuff shots without using any sights that were provided resulted in a level of accuracy that impresses me.
You can estimate numerical ranges without a screenshot, based on subjective impressions while watching the movie? :roll:
And you do not understand how the necessity to add ridiculous speculative inventions such as a mind-reading device to the phaser makes you theory a house of cards?
Of course I realize this, I come up with these theories because I enjoy it, and it helps me develop my understanding of Star Trek. I see a problem that cannot be easily reconciled and I come up with some crazy thing that can explain it. It goes without saying it is a house of cards, and I wouldn't even post it except my hope is to jog someone's memory or start some line of thinking that results in a more stable theory. A form of fun brainstorming, if you will, with the added benefit of critical readers.
I don't see how "mind-reading phaser"-based theories will go anywhere constructive.
Would you honestly prefere a conclusion that doesn't explain common occurances, or concluding no rational conclusion can be made?
Nice false dilemma, particularly when you snipped out the part of my post where I pointed out that your evidence can be explained just as easily without mind-reading phasers.
As for 'mind reading', the universal translator establishes the level of technology needed to make this work. I didn't make that part up completely.
And yet they need Vulcans to interrogate people for information. Why is that? And why didn't the UT figure out the people of "Darmok"?
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Post by brianeyci »

I have an apology to make folks.
Winston Blake wrote:I seem to have triggered your 'trek-bashing Warsie' alarm
I was thinking of more ways to refute the points, and how I would teach you Trek bashers a lesson. Then it dawned on me.

Justified stupidity is still stupidity. Rational stupidity is still stupidity. Stupidity among stupidity is still stupidity.

Not having ironsights and relying on assisted aiming on your gun is stupid. Not having material doors is stupid. Relying on automation to the point that there is no deadman's switch is stupid. Letting your military forget thousands of years of human history is stupid. Having no ground army is stupid. Pressing naval officers into ground combat roles is stupid. Having exploding consoles is stupid.

No matter how I had tried to weasel my way out of it, stupid was stupid. I even started making unsubstantiated claims, such as "assisted aiming worked well". The whole point of my assisted-aiming theory was to explain why Federation marskmanship went down the drain -- assisted aiming was a bad thing, and my Trek-bashing alarm went off so I started defending it! Holy shit.

The Federation is stupid.

You won't hear me say it a lot though, not because I don't believe it, but because I think a lot more precision is required in a debate. For example, "The United States is stupid" because they made major policy decisions such as *cough* Iraq *cough* without planning ahead, but saying the United States is stupid really doesn't add anything to the debate.

Brian
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