YT300000 vs Walper, a "friendly" debate

[YT300000]

This is a debate about Borg incompetence. Basically, it started in an MSN convo. Since it became rather long and cumbersome, we decided to move it here. Since this is as much a practice of our debating skills as a diversion from our otherwise dull and useless lives, it would be nice if no one other than us posted in this thread, to prevent it from being cluttered ridiculously fast.

For reference, here's the MSN convo in question (or rather, an exerpt from it). Sorry about the difficulty in reading it, but I'm not going to bother editting every line, since this is mainly for Walper and myself.:

This isn't revenge. It's punishment. says:
anyway, here's something else to piss you off
Robert W. says:
lol
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www.stardestroyer.net
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read the new poll
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I voted Borg
Robert W. says:
Saw that awhile back
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I go there once every...
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4 months
Robert W. says:
and frankly, the Borg were *not* inept...so there
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just in time for the updates
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uh.. they are
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completely
Robert W. says:
not
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show one example of good planning
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or competence
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or proper execution
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or anything
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and I'll refute it
Robert W. says:
lol like their plan to conquer Earth? The first failure was a fluke, the second assault was a miscalculation, and the third if it had happened would've obliterated the Federation
This isn't revenge. It's punishment. says:
one cube at a time
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that's retarded
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that's a bad example
Robert W. says:
You seem to forget how easily the one cube was obliterating Federation forces in BOBW
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so?
Robert W. says:
they didn't even have a worry
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they knew that Earth's forces were way stronger
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since the feddies have a modicum of intelligence
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they also knew that the cube could break down or something
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2 would have guaranteed success
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and made no difference resourse-wise
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common fucking sense
Robert W. says:
yet the cube still made it to earth orbit, and only Picard's insight defeated them
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they should have expected him to be there
Robert W. says:
Resources? True...but the Borg are obsessed with efficency, remember?
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it would not make 0.00000000000001 % of a difference
Robert W. says:
And yet you then turn around and say how necessary the second cube is
Robert W. says:
?
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I mean in their resources
Robert W. says:
Let me put it this way
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re-read what I said
Robert W. says:
you deploy the Death Star to destroy Yavin
Robert W. says:
it's more than a match for the defences by any rational reasoning right?
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yes
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and it contains many Strike Cruisers
Robert W. says:
so, if you lose the DS to a fluke, or design flaw, do you send two next time?
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which alone can topple the resident rebel fighters
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no
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but if you know that the DS can be defeated by the rebels there
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you do send two
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since that guarantees that the very important objective is completed
Robert W. says:
But if defeat at the handsa fo the Rebels lies in the realm of "only a moron would think they could pull it off" sending two is rather...wasteful
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but these aren't vaguely comparable
Robert W. says:
Yes, they are
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a large fleet can defeat a cube
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a DS is invincible
Robert W. says:
the first cube was more than a match for all of starfleet
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without the Force
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and yet the second one was destroyed
Robert W. says:
The second one was destroyed yes, which can be attributed to either Picard's help or a miscalculation of Starfleet's strength
Robert W. says:
if they had sent a third single vessel, then I'd agree they were being stupid
Robert W. says:
The Borg aren't infalliable
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hmm...
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they did send a third single vessel
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the sphere in Endgame
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but that was following VOyager
Robert W. says:
oh come on!
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nm
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bad memory
Robert W. says:
that sphere was after voyager!
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still, they knew that sufficient ships could destroy a cube
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they knew of the weakness
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they knew Picard knew
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they knew he would probably be there
Robert W. says:
What if the Borg "knew" Picard wouldn't be there?
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how could they?
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Picard was usually within caling distance of Earth
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remember all those episodes where they went close
Robert W. says:
So now the Borg have a spy network in the Federation?
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for all of season 5, they were within a few hours
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that seems to be what you're saying, yes
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was Seven's link with the Queen unique?
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as in, they could communicate
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not just have dreams
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or nightmares, rather
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the Borg function on one singular principle
Robert W. says:
Seven had an alcove...that's quite a difference you know
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overwhelming force
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ah
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they knew the cube could be destoryed
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they knew they would waste 6 months like that
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and yet, they didn't install a simple contingency that allows them to guarantee success, at virtually no extra cost
Robert W. says:
Of course the Borg "knew" the cube could be destroyed...it's just the probability was low that sending two would be inefficent since one can accomplish the job
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I'm sorry, they're fucking retards
Robert W. says:
lol
Robert W. says:
Could go back and forth like this all day dude I'm sure
Robert W. says:
needless to say I don't see them that way
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but all of SDN would agree that I won
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well, most
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the sane ones
Robert W. says:
Appeal to authority...
Robert W. says:

This isn't revenge. It's punishment. says:
no
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appeal to logic
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massed logic
Robert W. says:
Appeal to majority too...lol
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I didn't refer to anyone in particular
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besides, the majority is correct
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as has been shown time and again
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in these debates
Robert W. says:
Ah, so God *does* exist then?
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not that majority
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and not on that topic
Robert W. says:
Uh huh
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hm... where is Poe's Borg page...
Robert W. says:
See what I mean about Appealing to Majority?
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as soon as it loads...
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it deals with just about any Borg argument ever made
Robert W. says:
Could be interesting
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well fuck
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the server is down
Robert W. says:
lol
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some other tiem then
Robert W. says:
Damn
Robert W. says:
sure
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but it had good stuff
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like kinetic weaponry
Robert W. says:
I wouldn't mind looking
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h4h/louis or somesuch
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I dont' remember
Robert W. says:
Borg drones don't have kinetic energy shielding..that's already known
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bookmarked
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yes, but that was just one topic on there
Robert W. says:
But then, they don't really need it, even though their technology base can build it
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Borg incompetence was on there too
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okay, my turn
Robert W. says:
lol
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a good example of Borg incompetence
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how they tried to destroy the Pheonix
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hitting it from orbit
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with pitifully weak weaponry
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why not beam down 50 drones
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and burn it
Robert W. says:
It was a distraction tactic
Robert W. says:
keep the E-E busy while they begin assimilating it
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but the main goal is the Pheonix
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if they destroy that
Robert W. says:
no, it wasn't
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it doesn't matter what else happens
Robert W. says:
the Borg didn't give a damn about first contact
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if they stop it
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humans are fucked
Robert W. says:
that was *Picard's* concern, not the Borg's
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and future humans can't fight
Robert W. says:
The E-E crew was worried about losing first Contact
Robert W. says:
the Borg couldn't have cared less
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then why that date?
Robert W. says:
like the Vulcans could've stopped them
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why not right after the war?
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it was several months later
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or years
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I'm not sure
Robert W. says:
The distraction factor
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but it was a while
Robert W. says:
so they can acquire the E-E as well
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so, they knew of the event
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if they know that it will distract
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therefore, with their huge computing ability
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they shuold have figured out
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that without FC, it won't matter if they succeed or fail
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and since that's a much easier goal
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they should have pursued it
Robert W. says:
if the borg failed assimilating Earth and the E-E, why would altering an alternate timeline concern them at all?
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because then humans never develop warp travel
Robert W. says:
so?
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and the only real threat is gone
Robert W. says:
Again, the borg gain nothing
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assimilation in the future then is easy
Robert W. says:
in an alternate timeline yes
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they would have known that
Robert W. says:
but the Borg there had two objective as outlined by Picard: "first they'll assimilate the Enterprise, then Earth".
Robert W. says:
not one thing about first contact
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the E-E is small potatoes
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objectives change
Robert W. says:
except Picards speculation near the beginning
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combat is a highly fluid situation
Robert W. says:
The Borg's objective all along was assimilate Earth, the E-E was obviously part of that objective
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how?
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they don't need it
Robert W. says:
The borg assimilate biological and technoligcal distinctiveness
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so?
Robert W. says:
the E-e is the "most advanced ship in the fleet"
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wow
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it can't even do transwarp
Robert W. says:
they wouldv'e gained humanity and the tech of a Federation which will not exist in that timeline
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they already had all the important technology
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they got it from the E-D
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and others
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what else was new?
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quantum torps?
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not that big of a deal
Robert W. says:
If that's the case, why do the Borg bother assimilating any species or technology that is inferior to themselves?
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so that they learn about it
Robert W. says:
they look for new methods of applying technology and ideas
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but they already knew a lot about the feddies
Robert W. says:
exactly
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from the previous fun times
Robert W. says:
they they should have no interest in fed tech right? so why go after them?
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populace
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and if the feds are gone
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everyone around becomes muich weaker
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and easier to take down
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and assimilate

Anyway, my position is that the Borg are incompetent in just about everything they do, and don't bother to plan contingencies. The most definitive example of their incompetence is seen in STFC, when merely one cube was sent, despite the fact that they knew it could be defeated. I challenge Walper to refute this.

In later phases, this will probably shift onto other showings of incompetence, but for now, it will start with the assault on Earth.

[Robert Walper]

This is a debate about Borg incompetence. Basically, it started in an MSN convo. Since it became rather long and cumbersome, we decided to move it here. Since this is as much a practice of our debating skills as a diversion from our otherwise dull and useless lives, it would be nice if no one other than us posted in this thread, to prevent it from being cluttered ridiculously fast.

And on that note, if you feel the irresistable need to comment, YT's suggested someone make a comment thread to keep ours "clean". Naturally, this will be up to the discretion of the moderators, and interested parties.

For reference, here's the MSN convo in question (or rather, an exerpt from it). Sorry about the difficulty in reading it, but I'm not going to bother editting every line, since this is mainly for Walper and myself.:

*snip, I was there *

Anyway, my position is that the Borg are incompetent in just about everything they do, and don't bother to plan contingencies. The most definitive example of their incompetence is seen in STFC, when merely one cube was sent, despite the fact that they knew it could be defeated. I challenge Walper to refute this.

Well, I could go into an extremely long winded reply(as I'm sure many would attest I'm capable of doing ), but I'll try to keep it as simple as possible:

-The Borg send one cube (STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"), which by all plausible tactical projections would've slaughtered the Federation. The Borg lost it by what most rational persons would conclude was a fluke, or at best an extremely unlikely scenario. You don't go betting on a boxer because there's the possibility the other will slip and knock himself out, regardless of the fact that this *can* happen. The BoBW events are even far more far fetched to go basing tactical projections on.

-The Borg send another cube in FC. Given the extremely implausible nature of how the first cube was lost, sending another single cube makes sense. The ease by which the first cube dealt with previous forces suggests even stronger forces could be safely dealt with by a single cube. And they were(Starfleet forces were dropping like flies), right up until the cube virtually entered Earth orbit.

It was at this point the Borg lost their second cube against the Federation. Whether you want to submit it was purely Picard's insight that provided victory, or miscalculation of Starfleet's strength or a combination of both, that's up to you. The point being is after the loss of the second cube, that is the time a tactician should be sitting back and re-evaluating attack stradegy. And that is exactly what the Borg did.

Fast forward to STVOY "Endgame", and we find out the Borg have created a Transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. Starfleet forces would only be given minutes warning time, and deploying multiple vessels virtually at Earth's doorstep would be exceedingly easy. It never happened, thanks to Voyager's time travel copout, and the Borg probably would not have initiated this attack any time soon regardless (recovering from the massive Species 8472 war would take priority over assimilating a low priority target halfway across the Milky Way galaxy)

That's my reply. Your turn, Tony.

[YT300000]

Well, I could go into an extremely long winded reply(as I'm sure many would attest I'm capable of doing ), but I'll try to keep it as simple as possible:

For now, I presume.

-The Borg send one cube (STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"), which by all plausible tactical projections would've slaughtered the Federation. The Borg lost it by what most rational persons would conclude was a fluke, or at best an extremely unlikely scenario.

Of course. They did quite a bit of adapting to the E-D in Q Who.

-The Borg send another cube in FC. Given the extremely implausible nature of how the first cube was lost, sending another single cube makes sense. The ease by which the first cube dealt with previous forces suggests even stronger forces could be safely dealt with by a single cube. And they were(Starfleet forces were dropping like flies), right up until the cube virtually entered Earth orbit.

It was at this point the Borg lost their second cube against the Federation. Whether you want to submit it was purely Picard's insight that provided victory, or miscalculation of Starfleet's strength or a combination of both, that's up to you. The point being is after the loss of the second cube, that is the time a tactician should be sitting back and re-evaluating attack stradegy. And that is exactly what the Borg did.

Starfleet forces first engaged the cube (for ease of reference, I shall call it C3 from now on, C1 being the Q Who cube, and C2 being the BoBW one) quite a ways away from Earth. IIRC, the battle had been going on for about 3 hours by the time the E-E arrived. C3 was heavily damaged (as evidenced by the fact that it took about 10 seconds of firing from all ships to take it out after the E-E arrived), but had thrown the Earth defensive fleet (EDF from now on) into disarray. When the E-E arrived, Picard was able to rally the defenders and destroy C3. It is most likely that what did C3 in was not a fatal design flaw, but just concentrated fire in one area that punched through the hull and exploded the innards. Since the E-E merely fired a few quantum torpedos, the fleet that had been stationed around Earth would have had sufficient firepower to destroy C3 on their own, had they been better organized. As Picard had been assimilated just a few years before, the Borg would have had all his knowledge in their databanks. Virtually every class of ship in the EDF had existed at that time, other than the Defiant and Sovereign, so they would have the firepower figures. Furthermore, they would have known that after they were discovered by the E-D, it was almost certain the whatever forces had been defending Earth at the time would be greatly upscaled.

As such, they should have known that C3 alone could have been destroyed. Yet, they sent it alone, when they could have easily sent 1, 2, 3, even 47 more cubes if they wanted, with no effect on their resources whatsoever, and a guarantee that they would sustain no losses. Had they sent merely one cube without the Queen on board, this would be excusable. Testing the waters, if you will. But the presence of the Queen should have mandated an escort of sufficient size. The POTUS isn't guarded by just a single Secret Service agent.

Also, why did they wait many years after BoBW before sending a cube? The longer they wait, the more inaccurate their excellent tactical and strategic information on the Federation becomes. Had they sent another cube immediately (or better yet more than one) they would almost certainly have achieved victory.

Furthermore, while the event in BoBW was a fluke, it was a reproducable fluke. Simply put, the Queen was placed in far too much risk, and they moved too slowly and inadequately, making mistakes a child playing Age of Empires wouldn't. Incompetence.

Fast forward to STVOY "Endgame", and we find out the Borg have created a Transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. Starfleet forces would only be given minutes warning time, and deploying multiple vessels virtually at Earth's doorstep would be exceedingly easy.

Too little, too late. They could have finished it all years before. And unless the conduit had been constructed that morning, there was no reason for why they didn't pop a few cubes through (which we know they didn't do, since in the original timeline they had the conduit for 20+ years and didn't use it). They would have quickly assimilated Earth, no losses, and removed the second greatest threat. Furthermore, they'd have an unassailable base on the other side of the galaxy, from which they could gather resources and greatly speed up conquering everything.

(recovering from the massive Species 8472 war would take priority over assimilating a low priority target halfway across the Milky Way galaxy)

Incorrect. 4 cubes, and you have another corner of the galaxy under your control.

That's my reply. Your turn, Tony.

Back to you.

[Robert Walper]

-The Borg send another cube in FC. Given the extremely implausible nature of how the first cube was lost, sending another single cube makes sense. The ease by which the first cube dealt with previous forces suggests even stronger forces could be safely dealt with by a single cube. And they were(Starfleet forces were dropping like flies), right up until the cube virtually entered Earth orbit.

It was at this point the Borg lost their second cube against the Federation. Whether you want to submit it was purely Picard's insight that provided victory, or miscalculation of Starfleet's strength or a combination of both, that's up to you. The point being is after the loss of the second cube, that is the time a tactician should be sitting back and re-evaluating attack stradegy. And that is exactly what the Borg did.

Starfleet forces first engaged the cube (for ease of reference, I shall call it C3 from now on, C1 being the Q Who cube, and C2 being the BoBW one) quite a ways away from Earth. IIRC, the battle had been going on for about 3 hours by the time the E-E arrived. C3 was heavily damaged (as evidenced by the fact that it took about 10 seconds of firing from all ships to take it out after the E-E arrived),

It should be pointed out the Borg cube's outer hull was claimed heavily damaged (even though the visuals show damage less extensive then seen on C1, or the cube in STVOY "Collective", both of which were either claimed not excessively damaged or repaired such damage very quickly).

A normal cube, undamaged: Here and here

Screenshots of cube from STTNG "Q, Who?": Here

Screenshots from STVOY "Collective": Here and here

Compared to the cube in FC: Here, here and here

From the above images and comparisons, it doesn't seem to me the cube in FC had hull damage as extensive as some suggest. Most certainly not enough to justify the claim the cube was "close to defeat".

It was also mentioned there was fluxuations in their power grid, however this would be expected if you have multiple enemy units targetting "critical" systems, like tractor emitters, shield generators, weapon emitters, etc. Power being fed into systems is suddenly cut off, attempting to power a newly destroyed system or being redirected to another system. This does not mean the cube was close to defeat, or compromised enough to consider the remaining ships capable of taking it out without inside intel.

but had thrown the Earth defensive fleet (EDF from now on) into disarray. When the E-E arrived, Picard was able to rally the defenders and destroy C3. It is most likely that what did C3 in was not a fatal design flaw, but just concentrated fire in one area that punched through the hull and exploded the innards.

However, a quick view of the ST:FC DVD will show the Federation fleet hit an area of the cube (deemed a non critical system which would be extremely unusual for an enemy to target) that seemed to begin a chain reaction effect. In essence, the cube destroyed itself, the fleet did not explode the cube with raw firepower. And the information used to determine this vulnerability was gathered by an extremely unusual method.

Since the E-E merely fired a few quantum torpedos,

Maybe you missed it, but the entire fleet opened fire upon that single location, not just the E-E. There was a huge barrage of phasers, regular torpedoes and quantum torpedoes. The E-E's torpedoes merely hit the specific location that triggered the chain reaction, destroying the cube.

the fleet that had been stationed around Earth would have had sufficient firepower to destroy C3 on their own, had they been better organized.

When faced with an enemy spacecraft, do you target key systems, like power generators, shields emitters, weapon emplacements, etc, or do you target non critical systems? Obviously you target the critical systems in hopes of disabling the ship. Given we know Borg vessels are highly decentralized in design, it's not surprising targetting critical systems around the entire Borg cube is going to yield poor results.

One should also consider the information gleamed from the opening battle sequence that we hear over the com channel. From what we can tell, this is the first engagement between the Borg cube and Federation forces, and the Federation forces were taking heavy casualties in just the first few seconds. One could submit the only reason Federation forces lasted as long as they did was because they started targetting and disabling critical systems (such as the cube's weapons) as opposed to trying a simple raw firepower stradegy.

As Picard had been assimilated just a few years before, the Borg would have had all his knowledge in their databanks. Virtually every class of ship in the EDF had existed at that time, other than the Defiant and Sovereign, so they would have the firepower figures. Furthermore, they would have known that after they were discovered by the E-D, it was almost certain the whatever forces had been defending Earth at the time would be greatly upscaled.

As such, they should have known that C3 alone could have been destroyed.

Of course the Borg would know it would be possible to destroy their vessel. Anything is possible, but what is important is what is probably. And given the lack of success Federation forces had stopping the cube from reaching spitting distance of Earth despite many hours of fighting (presumeably), the Borg's assumption that a single cube should be able to handle even a war era Starfleet seems well justified.

Yet, they sent it alone, when they could have easily sent 1, 2, 3, even 47 more cubes if they wanted,
with no effect on their resources whatsoever,

Let's not forget the Borg most certainly consider the Federation a low priority target. And asserting the Borg can send several dozen Borg cubes with "no effect on their resources whatsoever" is a No Limits Fallacy. Sending that many vessels most certainly doesn't seem beyond their capability, but the Borg strive for, above all else, efficency. Efficiency and redundancy are two objectives that are difficult to combine. In the interests of efficiency, the Borg could easily have determined the margin for error/failure as acceptable, and sent only one vessel.

and a guarantee that they would sustain no losses. Had they sent merely one cube without the Queen on board, this would be excusable. Testing the waters, if you will. But the presence of the Queen should have mandated an escort of sufficient size. The POTUS isn't guarded by just a single Secret Service agent.

Your comment about the presence of the Borg Queen is of particular interest. You suggest that if the Borg Queen hadn't been present, sending one cube becomes "excuseable". Well, truth be told, every Borg vessel possess a Borg "Queen", or equivalent system also known as a Borg Vinculum. Both bring "order to chaos", essentially sorting all Borg "thoughts" and purging irrelevent ones. The only difference being the humanoid Queen is smaller and apparently possess an element of "individuality". She was constructed onboard the E-E, after the capture of Data. Building the humanoid Vinculum serves two goals: 1) limited resources on hand, building the smaller model makes sense. 2) Seduction of Data, since forcible extraction of information from him seemed extremely unlikely or impossible with their available resources.

Also, why did they wait many years after BoBW before sending a cube?

Again, you are arguing from the perspective that the Borg consider the Federation some type of high priority target. The Collective's interests seem to perceive even "large" powers like the Federation as unworthy of major effort. They even went so far as to attempt invasion of other dimensions looking for more worthwhile targets, like Species 8472. (Noteably, Species 8472 was biting off more than the Collective could chew, but that's beside the point.)

The longer they wait, the more inaccurate their excellent tactical and strategic information on the Federation becomes. Had they sent another cube immediately (or better yet more than one) they would almost certainly have achieved victory.

Furthermore, while the event in BoBW was a fluke, it was a reproducable fluke. Simply put, the Queen was placed in far too much risk, and they moved too slowly and inadequately, making mistakes a child playing Age of Empires wouldn't. Incompetence.

Since Borg Queens or their equivalents are as numerous as Borg ships, you vastly overestimate their importance. And again, you argue from the perspective that the Federation is some juicy target the Collective feels compelled to assimilate at all costs. At best, the Federation is a minor interest to the Collective, and their attempts at assimilating it can easily be submitted, as you put it, "testing the waters".

Fast forward to STVOY "Endgame", and we find out the Borg have created a Transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth. Starfleet forces would only be given minutes warning time, and deploying multiple vessels virtually at Earth's doorstep would be exceedingly easy.

Too little, too late. They could have finished it all years before. And unless the conduit had been constructed that morning, there was no reason for why they didn't pop a few cubes through (which we know they didn't do, since in the original timeline they had the conduit for 20+ years and didn't use it). They would have quickly assimilated Earth, no losses, and removed the second greatest threat.

Since when has the Federation ever been a threat to the Borg Collective? A single Borg cube can plow through Starfleet's best defenses and reach Earth orbit, but their entire Collective composed of (in all likelyhood) many thousands of vessels is supposed to be concerned about a power halfway across the galaxy that would take decades to reach them? The Federation is outgunned, outnumbered, magnitudes slower and possesses inferior technology. Where is the threat?

Furthermore, they'd have an unassailable base on the other side of the galaxy, from which they could gather resources and greatly speed up conquering everything.

The Borg make no claims about interest in galactic domination nor have they ever come across as some military power intent purely on conquest. Their objectives have been made abundantly clear, assimilating biological and technological distinctiveness to enhance their own.

[YT300000]

Jesus, sorry everyone. But I should have known I would be covered in homework before I started this. I came back yesterday, but there was so much unread stuff, I couldn't get around to this.

It should be pointed out the Borg cube's outer hull was claimed heavily damaged (even though the visuals show damage less extensive then seen on C1, or the cube in STVOY "Collective", both of which were either claimed not excessively damaged or repaired such damage very quickly).

I haven't seen Collective, but C1 had (according to Data) 20% blasted away after the first shot. Of course, they adapted quite a bit since that time, so its a moot point.

From the above images and comparisons, it doesn't seem to me the cube in FC had hull damage as extensive as some suggest. Most certainly not enough to justify the claim the cube was "close to defeat".

Perhaps not hull damage, but internal damage. Which would explain Data's "there are massive fluctuations in the Borg's power grid."

It was also mentioned there was fluxuations in their power grid, however this would be expected if you have multiple enemy units targetting "critical" systems, like tractor emitters, shield generators, weapon emitters, etc. Power being fed into systems is suddenly cut off, attempting to power a newly destroyed system or being redirected to another system.

Perhaps. Either way, the method of the demise of C3 is largely irrelevant. In fact, if it is a design flaw as you are purporting, it is another showing or Borg incompetence. Its like the Death Star's thermal exhaust port, just several dozen times bigger, and taking up a dangerously large portion of one of the faces of the cube.

Either way, the Borg would have known that Picard would go to face them as soon as the message of their attack arrived to him. Since he was part of the collective, he would know of the fatal design flaw (FDF from this point onwards). Even if he couldn't get there on time, he would almost certainly tell the EDF where to fire. So since C3 supposedly didn't take much damage, had the EDF known of the FDF, they would have easily defeated it.

However, a quick view of the ST:FC DVD will show the Federation fleet hit an area of the cube (deemed a non critical system which would be extremely unusual for an enemy to target) that seemed to begin a chain reaction effect. In essence, the cube destroyed itself, the fleet did not explode the cube with raw firepower. And the information used to determine this vulnerability was gathered by an extremely unusual method.

The method being Picard's knowledge. Since he was assimilated, they would know his personality would make him show up, or at least relay the FDF to the EDF.

Since the E-E merely fired a few quantum torpedos,

Maybe you missed it, but the entire fleet opened fire upon that single location, not just the E-E. There was a huge barrage of phasers, regular torpedoes and quantum torpedoes. The E-E's torpedoes merely hit the specific location that triggered the chain reaction, destroying the cube.

No, I meant that if the E-E hadn't been there, the drop in firepower would be negligible.

the fleet that had been stationed around Earth would have had sufficient firepower to destroy C3 on their own, had they been better organized.

When faced with an enemy spacecraft, do you target key systems, like power generators, shields emitters, weapon emplacements, etc, or do you target non critical systems? Obviously you target the critical systems in hopes of disabling the ship. Given we know Borg vessels are highly decentralized in design, it's not surprising targetting critical systems around the entire Borg cube is going to yield poor results.

One should also consider the information gleamed from the opening battle sequence that we hear over the com channel. From what we can tell, this is the first engagement between the Borg cube and Federation forces, and the Federation forces were taking heavy casualties in just the first few seconds. One could submit the only reason Federation forces lasted as long as they did was because they started targetting and disabling critical systems (such as the cube's weapons) as opposed to trying a simple raw firepower stradegy.

Just because an enemy isn't terribly likely to fire at that one particular point doesn't mean its okay to put an FDF there. The Borg should not have had them there in the first place. Lack of contingencies. Incompetence.

Of course the Borg would know it would be possible to destroy their vessel. Anything is possible, but what is important is what is probably. And given the lack of success Federation forces had stopping the cube from reaching spitting distance of Earth despite many hours of fighting (presumeably), the Borg's assumption that a single cube should be able to handle even a war era Starfleet seems well justified.

Yes, but if you can easily send an extra cube, which would absolutely guarantee minimal losses and victory, and you don't, you're just stupid. Unknowns in combat are what kill you. You want to eliminate as many as possible.

Let's not forget the Borg most certainly consider the Federation a low priority target. And asserting the Borg can send several dozen Borg cubes with "no effect on their resources whatsoever" is a No Limits Fallacy. Sending that many vessels most certainly doesn't seem beyond their capability, but the Borg strive for, above all else, efficency. Efficiency and redundancy are two objectives that are difficult to combine. In the interests of efficiency, the Borg could easily have determined the margin for error/failure as acceptable, and sent only one vessel.

In that case, why do they send multiple cubes to backwater little shitholes in the DQ which could be defeated by the feddies? 1 extra cube is not a no-limits fallacy. It would be like whether I want to spend $.10 on a pack of gum or $.20. The difference is so miniscule, I barely notice.

Your comment about the presence of the Borg Queen is of particular interest. You suggest that if the Borg Queen hadn't been present, sending one cube becomes "excuseable". Well, truth be told, every Borg vessel possess a Borg "Queen", or equivalent system also known as a Borg Vinculum. Both bring "order to chaos", essentially sorting all Borg "thoughts" and purging irrelevent ones. The only difference being the humanoid Queen is smaller and apparently possess an element of "individuality". She was constructed onboard the E-E, after the capture of Data. Building the humanoid Vinculum serves two goals: 1) limited resources on hand, building the smaller model makes sense. 2) Seduction of Data, since forcible extraction of information from him seemed extremely unlikely or impossible with their available resources.

So the queen isn't that valuable? How long does it take to make one? Can't there only be one at a time?

And you previously purported efficiency. What is more efficent? Losing one entire ship, or losing a few thousand drones (from the cube being jostled around, maybe some shots breaking through the hull, etc). that are quickly replaced?

Again, you are arguing from the perspective that the Borg consider the Federation some type of high priority target. The Collective's interests seem to perceive even "large" powers like the Federation as unworthy of major effort. They even went so far as to attempt invasion of other dimensions looking for more worthwhile targets, like Species 8472. (Noteably, Species 8472 was biting off more than the Collective could chew, but that's beside the point.)

Then explain my Voyager example above.

Since Borg Queens or their equivalents are as numerous as Borg ships, you vastly overestimate their importance.

That's an anchillary point that can certainly be dropped, just as soon as you tell me exactly how common the Queens are.

And again, you argue from the perspective that the Federation is some juicy target the Collective feels compelled to assimilate at all costs. At best, the Federation is a minor interest to the Collective, and their attempts at assimilating it can easily be submitted, as you put it, "testing the waters".

*Brings up the Voyager DQ shithole example again.* I'm not saying that the Federation is a major target. If it was, I would be asking why the Borg aren't sending hundred-ship fleets after them. But for the Borg's resources, not sending a second cube makes no sense, versus sending one, which has great strategic benefits.

Since when has the Federation ever been a threat to the Borg Collective?

Since they discovered time travel, which is what ultimately did the Borg in.

A single Borg cube can plow through Starfleet's best defenses and reach Earth orbit, but their entire Collective composed of (in all likelyhood) many thousands of vessels is supposed to be concerned about a power halfway across the galaxy that would take decades to reach them? The Federation is outgunned, outnumbered, magnitudes slower and possesses inferior technology. Where is the threat?

In the time travel. But even that's irrelevant. They don't need a threat to react here. Just send one cube. Since it comes out in the Solar System, the EDF won't matter, as it won't have enough time. Topple the Federation. Conquer that corner of the galaxy.

The Borg make no claims about interest in galactic domination nor have they ever come across as some military power intent purely on conquest. Their objectives have been made abundantly clear, assimilating biological and technological distinctiveness to enhance their own.

If you control a quadrant of the galaxy, everything that's there becomes assimilated. If you aren't there, it isn't.

[Robert Walper]

Jesus, sorry everyone. But I should have known I would be covered in homework before I started this. I came back yesterday, but there was so much unread stuff, I couldn't get around to this.

No worries. I'm finding my time is becoming limited as well, hence my late response.

From the above images and comparisons, it doesn't seem to me the cube in FC had hull damage as extensive as some suggest. Most certainly not enough to justify the claim the cube was "close to defeat".

Perhaps not hull damage, but internal damage. Which would explain Data's "there are massive fluctuations in the Borg's power grid."

My explanation works just as well, and Data's comment on "heavy" damage was in regards to the cube's outer hull, not it's internals.

It was also mentioned there was fluxuations in their power grid, however this would be expected if you have multiple enemy units targetting "critical" systems, like tractor emitters, shield generators, weapon emitters, etc. Power being fed into systems is suddenly cut off, attempting to power a newly destroyed system or being redirected to another system.

Perhaps. Either way, the method of the demise of C3 is largely irrelevant. In fact, if it is a design flaw as you are purporting,

I'm by no means asserting the cube's demise was due to a design flaw. I think the most likely explanation is that the cube obviously took significant damage. It wasn't close to defeat as some would assert, but it did have damage from a prolonged conflict. Borg repairs, despite impressive in speed and probably efficiency, cannot be perfect. The cube is going to have finite resources on hand, and the continous repair efforts could've created a dynamic "weak spot" on the cube, although they were still in good enough condition to mask it.

it is another showing or Borg incompetence. Its like the Death Star's thermal exhaust port, just several dozen times bigger, and taking up a dangerously large portion of one of the faces of the cube.

Again, I'm not asserting it's a design flaw. Merely a potential vulnerability where many hours of fighting results in less and less efficiency in real time repairs.

Either way, the Borg would have known that Picard would go to face them as soon as the message of their attack arrived to him. Since he was part of the collective, he would know of the fatal design flaw (FDF from this point onwards). Even if he couldn't get there on time, he would almost certainly tell the EDF where to fire. So since C3 supposedly didn't take much damage, had the EDF known of the FDF, they would have easily defeated it.

You're assuming it's a static design flaw, rather than a dynamic vulnerability caused by prolonged efforts in real time repair.

However, a quick view of the ST:FC DVD will show the Federation fleet hit an area of the cube (deemed a non critical system which would be extremely unusual for an enemy to target) that seemed to begin a chain reaction effect. In essence, the cube destroyed itself, the fleet did not explode the cube with raw firepower. And the information used to determine this vulnerability was gathered by an extremely unusual method.

The method being Picard's knowledge.

Picard's ability to "hear" the Collective is what gave him the insight to finding a way to destroy the cube. If he possessed knowledge about some static FDF on Borg cubes, he certainly did act like it. Informing Starfleet years ago would've been a start. Wasting time asking what the status of the cube was, or intently paying attention to what he was hearing from the "Collective" suggests there is no static FDF as you submit.

Since he was assimilated, they would know his personality would make him show up, or at least relay the FDF to the EDF.

Notice how Picard didn't provide Starfleet intelligence anything in regards to a "design flaw" on Borg cubes? Apparently it doesn't exist.

Maybe you missed it, but the entire fleet opened fire upon that single location, not just the E-E. There was a huge barrage of phasers, regular torpedoes and quantum torpedoes. The E-E's torpedoes merely hit the specific location that triggered the chain reaction, destroying the cube.

No, I meant that if the E-E hadn't been there, the drop in firepower would be negligible.

True. But they'd still would've needed to know where to hit it. Something that was only learned by real time intel, with no evidence whatsoever that there is a pre existing FDF as you submit.

Just because an enemy isn't terribly likely to fire at that one particular point doesn't mean its okay to put an FDF there. The Borg should not have had them there in the first place. Lack of contingencies. Incompetence.

We disagree on the existence of the FDF, therefore we're not going to agree upon Borg incompetence based upon it.

Of course the Borg would know it would be possible to destroy their vessel. Anything is possible, but what is important is what is probably. And given the lack of success Federation forces had stopping the cube from reaching spitting distance of Earth despite many hours of fighting (presumeably), the Borg's assumption that a single cube should be able to handle even a war era Starfleet seems well justified.

Yes, but if you can easily send an extra cube, which would absolutely guarantee minimal losses and victory, and you don't, you're just stupid. Unknowns in combat are what kill you. You want to eliminate as many as possible.

The Borg are obsessed with efficiency. If a single cube has a very high probability of success, sending two would be wasteful (ie: inefficient) from their perspective.

In that case, why do they send multiple cubes to backwater little shitholes in the DQ which could be defeated by the feddies?

Easy. Said targets possess either or both biological traits and technology the Borg wish to assimilate. This would bump them up the "priority" list. So far as we know, the Federation has nothing of either that would qualify as particular interest to the Borg.

1 extra cube is not a no-limits fallacy. It would be like whether I want to spend $.10 on a pack of gum or $.20. The difference is so miniscule, I barely notice.

But if you're obessessed with maximizing the usage of your money, every penny counts. Sure, in a single instance, ten cetns seems like little to worry about. But what's making the exception for you towards that single piece of gum?

So what is so special about the Federation that the Borg should/will hinder their concept of efficiency?

So the queen isn't that valuable?

Nope. Just a more compact version of the Borg Vinculum, with a personality.

How long does it take to make one?

If we assume the drones on the E-E started to assemble a Queen immediately (unlikely IMO), several hours at least.

Can't there only be one at a time?

Probably not. There's one Vinculum for every Borg ship (ie: thousands), and a Borg Queen serves the same purpose.

And you previously purported efficiency. What is more efficent? Losing one entire ship, or losing a few thousand drones (from the cube being jostled around, maybe some shots breaking through the hull, etc). that are quickly replaced?

You're assuming the Borg expected their cube to lose.

I expect a 250 pound male boxing expert to crush a 150 pound female with no boxing experience whatsoever. Of course, there's plenty of unknowns. He could slip and break his neck walking across the ring. He could have a heart attack on the spot and die. An overhead light fixture could suddenly collapse and hit him on the head. And so on and so on. And by your logic, because of all these "unknowns", it's tactically "stupid" to reasonable expect the male boxer to win in the ring, thus we better send in two. My only response to that would be: Riight...

Since Borg Queens or their equivalents are as numerous as Borg ships, you vastly overestimate their importance.

That's an anchillary point that can certainly be dropped, just as soon as you tell me exactly how common the Queens are.

Apparently whenever one is needed, they can be constructed. One was built in ST:FC, another in STVOY "Dark Frontier", and we saw another one identical the the FC one in STVOY "Endgame".

*Brings up the Voyager DQ shithole example again.* I'm not saying that the Federation is a major target. If it was, I would be asking why the Borg aren't sending hundred-ship fleets after them. But for the Borg's resources, not sending a second cube makes no sense, versus sending one, which has great strategic benefits.

As I've said repeatedly now, the Borg fully expected their single cube to assimilate the Federation.

Since when has the Federation ever been a threat to the Borg Collective?

Since they discovered time travel, which is what ultimately did the Borg in.

So the Federation can change alternate timelines. Whoop dee doo. So can the Borg. Stalemate.

The Borg make no claims about interest in galactic domination nor have they ever come across as some military power intent purely on conquest. Their objectives have been made abundantly clear, assimilating biological and technological distinctiveness to enhance their own.

If you control a quadrant of the galaxy, everything that's there becomes assimilated. If you aren't there, it isn't.

The Borg by no means control the "entire" Delta quadrant. A huge chunk of it, yes. They require bases of operations to maintain their infrastructure and resources. And I fail to see how this refutes the fact the Borg Collective is not a military organization intent on conquest.

[Robert Walper]

After consulting with YT300000, we've decided this thread won't go any further. Neither of us is conceding, but the fact of the matter is YT's time is extremely tied up right now and he cannot realistically continue this debate to the best of his ability.

So there seems little point in it remaining stickified.

[LordShaithis]

Well since the official debate is over, I'll just jump in and say that explaining WHY the Borg have suffered multiple defeats against a weak power like the Federation doesn't change the fact that they DID lose.

They sent one cube, watched it die, waited years, then sent another single cube and watched it die too. That's clearly incompetent.

"But the cube was destroyed by some kind of fluke!"

That's a fine excuse, the first time. After that, be aware that shit can go wrong and have another ship along as backup.

"But the Borg love efficiency!"

And yet so far they're down at least two cubes and the Federation survives. Clearly they're not very good at being efficient.

"Well the Federation is a minor power anyway, and the Borg don't care much."

They cared enough to attack. Twice.

[brianeyci]

"Backup" is redundant, did you read Walper's explaination about the 250 lbs man fighting the 150 lbs woman? Why the hell would the 250 lbs man need backup? Same analogy applies -- it looks like the EDF (earth defense force) would have lost without Picard's knowledge.

Saying that the loss of two cubes is inefficient is true -- but it doesn't explain why they sent one cube in the first place, then sent another cube. That sounds efficient like me -- if one cube was destroyed by a fluke, then you send another cube because the probability of it being destroyed by the same fluke that was corrected would be nil.

Attacked twice, with one cube each time. Minimal expediture of resources. Like dealing with a fly with a fly-swatter. Saying they "cared" because they sent an attack force ignores the size of the attack force -- we know the Borg have far more resources available.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Mindless masturbation to 'efficiency' over common sense causes many downfalls. The Borg, the Northeast power grid, and so on.

[Robert Walper]

Common sense dictates that if Force A can swat Force B out of existence in any practical and rational tactical analysis, and said objective is of low priority, having "backup" is almost absurd if one of your priorities is efficiency.

[SirNitram]

Common sense dictates that if Force A can swat Force B out of existence in any practical and rational tactical analysis, and said objective is of low priority, having "backup" is almost absurd if one of your priorities is efficiency.

And if one of your priorities is victory, you always send backup. This is absurd as sending a single operative halfway across the globe with no assistance, oversight, or backup on the same continent as him. Then doing it again. The Borg wankery here is pathetic; just admit they did something outrageously stupid at the writer's behest. Grow up. Gods.

[Jawawithagun]

"Backup" is redundant, did you read Walper's explaination about the 250 lbs man fighting the 150 lbs woman? Why the hell would the 250 lbs man need backup? Same analogy applies -- it looks like the EDF (earth defense force) would have lost without Picard's knowledge.

If that 250lbs man has already gotten his arse kicked once due to that little lady having some tricks he didn't knew up her sleeve it is smart to get some backup before doing her again!

Saying that the loss of two cubes is inefficient is true -- but it doesn't explain why they sent one cube in the first place, then sent another cube. That sounds efficient like me -- if one cube was destroyed by a fluke, then you send another cube because the probability of it being destroyed by the same fluke that was corrected would be nil.

You send two cubes, one to do the job and another one to watch it and collect data on the fluke should it occur again. Should it not repeat the second cube can go on to the next job on the list.

[LordShaithis]

Let's not forget the fact that sending another single cube would have worked just fine, if the Borg hadn't sat on their thumbs for YEARS before bothering to do so! A second cube sent shortly after the destruction of the first would have torn through a badly depleted Starfleet and won easily, but instead they allowed their enemies plenty of time to rebuild and improve their defenses.

If the Borg had any wits they would have simultaneously sent five cubes to various points around the Federation and wiped it out completely in a matter of hours, leaving a single cube behind to hold the newly captured territory. Now THAT is efficiency. Victory in the least possible time with the least possible losses. This shit where they screw around, sending the smallest possible force, watching it lose, and then waiting years to try again with an identical force, that's the OPPOSITE of efficiency.

By the way, I could be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't some source reference scattered Borg attacks against the Dominion? Again, this could be some made-up bullshit I read on DITL six months ago and forgot about, but if true it just makes the Borg look even worse.

*EDIT*

This bears repeating: Unless you're so heavily engaged that you can't spare them, it's actually MORE efficient to use "too many" ships. Extra ships mean shorter battles and less damage received. Sending minimal forces into battle so you can keep a few more ships sitting home doing whatever is pointless.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Let's not forget the fact that sending another single cube would have worked just fine, if the Borg hadn't sat on their thumbs for YEARS before bothering to do so! A second cube sent shortly after the destruction of the first would have torn through a badly depleted Starfleet and won easily, but instead they allowed their enemies plenty of time to rebuild and improve their defenses.

That’s exactly what the want. The Borg don’t do research them self, instead they allow others to do it and then assimilate that technology. If they attacked directly after BoBW the UFP would have fallen and no new technologies would have been invented. Like the quantum torpedo and other new weapon systems.

By the way, I could be remembering incorrectly, but doesn't some source reference scattered Borg attacks against the Dominion? Again, this could be some made-up bullshit I read on DITL six months ago and forgot about, but if true it just makes the Borg look even worse.

Its from the DS9 novel "Mission Gamma"

[LordShaithis]

That’s exactly what the want. The Borg don’t do research them self, instead they allow others to do it and then assimilate that technology. If they attacked directly after BoBW the UFP would have fallen and no new technologies would have been invented. Like the quantum torpedo and other new weapon systems.

The notion that the Borg have been "throwing fights" in order to cultivate technological progress for assimilation is... creative, I'll give you that. But it's shot down by their time-travel scheme in First Contact. When the cube was on the brink of destruction, they didn't sit back and accept the loss in hopes that the battle would spur more research. Instead they traveled back to assimilate Earth in the past, ensuring zero technological gains.

Its from the DS9 novel "Mission Gamma"

Then in the Dominion we have another example of an opponent the Borg have failed to defeat thanks to their unwillingness to fully commit.

[Gustav32Vasa]

The notion that the Borg have been "throwing fights" in order to cultivate technological progress for assimilation is... creative, I'll give you that. But it's shot down by their time-travel scheme in First Contact. When the cube was on the brink of destruction, they didn't sit back and accept the loss in hopes that the battle would spur more research. Instead they traveled back to assimilate Earth in the past, ensuring zero technological gains.

I agree that that was stupid of them.

Then in the Dominion we have another example of an opponent the Borg have failed to defeat thanks to their unwillingness to fully commit.

IIRC it was only one small attack, probably like the one that attacked the Federation and Romulan outpost in the Neutral Zones. They were just checking the Dominion out after learning of them from the UFP.

Unfortunally its not canon, nor is Bajors admission to the federation