Disruptors or Phasers, pick your poison.

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Disruptors or Phasers, pick your poison.

Post by brianeyci »

Searched for "Disruptor" and didn't find anything recent. So here it goes.

What would you prefer, this,

Image
(Bernd's Site)

or this,

Image
(phasers.net)

The phaser has demonstrated far more interesting qualities such as stun, widebeam shot, off-axis and autoaiming on certain models. Note the following,

(From DS94 - "Return to Grace")
(I found the script here)

KIRA
Now this is an entirely different
animal. It's Federation standard
issue. A little less powerful,
but with more options... sixteen
beam settings... fully autonomous
recharge... multiple target
acquisition... gyrostablized...
the works.

"Acquisition" could mean anything, but from visual evidence it would seem that it means some sort of aiming system, at least on the beam-type phasers.

Don't like the mumbo-jumbo? Want something that vaporizes your enemies without worrying about settings?

(From DS94 - "Return to Grace")

KIRA
This is a standard issue,
Cardassian phase-disruptor rifle.
It has a four-point-seven
megajoule power capacity... three
millisecond recharge and two beam
settings.

And who could forget this guy,

Image

(Section31.com, had to host on my own webspace, sorry got fed up searching for another source for this pic. I actually wanted a pic with the guy half vaporized, but oh well.)

Also, disruptors seem to be more powerful pound for pound than phasers -- disruptors haven't demonstrated the infamous packing crate syndrome (unless the Dominion used disruptors, I'm not sure what they used). All the more "ruthless" powers use disruptors -- the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans, and hell even the Borg when they're smart enough. Only the Feds stick with phasers -- which I would equate to the Feds wanting a non-lethal alternative.

And, consider this,

KIRA (Cont'd)
It's more complicated, so it's not
as good a field weapon. Too many
things can go wrong.

Phasers seem to be higher maintainence, and require more training to use well. Kira was talking to Gul Dukat's daughter, so the "complicated" part and the "field weapon" part shouldn't be taken out of context to mean that phasers are shit -- phasers are just shit in the hands of terrorists who need simplicity and easy maintainence. A weapon with 16 settings and "target acquisition" would be harder to use in general than a point and shoot weapon with two settings.

So what do you like? Phasers or disruptors?
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Post by The Silence and I »

I prefere phasers myself. The options really are useful--AFAIK no disruptor has boasted a stun setting, which is superior to lethality some in situations. e.g. If you need to defend yourself, would you feel better about killing in a very painful manner or stunning the SOB and giving him to the police? (I am assuming a kind of allyway-mugging situation here, but the principles apply elsewhere too).
Now, that said the phaser is harder to use, but can compete, so that is kinda a moot point in the long run. Certain settings such as welding or flash heating of rocks or cutting are seemingly custom-made for life saving in unusual circumstances. On the battlefield I would recommend a disruptor as seen. For special forces and expert collecters/enthusiasts I would recommend phasers.
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Post by Sarevok »

Only the Feds stick with phasers -- which I would equate to the Feds wanting a non-lethal alternative.
Actualy many races use phasers besides the Federation. The Cardassian Union's Galor and Keldon class starships are armed with phasers. Also several Delta Quadrant species use phasers too.
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Post by brianeyci »

Of course, but I was talking more about ground weaponry, and the thread is about ground weaponry too.

After reading a bit on the net about disruptors, the general consensus about why disruptors aren't seen more frequently on ships is that they are difficult to put together into an "array". We haven't seen any turret-type guns in ST, and species use phasers because it is far easier to make a phaser "array" than it is to make a reliable ship-mounted disruptor.

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Post by Stofsk »

Distruptor. If i have to kill someone there's no point fucking around. If I need to disable someone or disarm them or subdue them, then why the fuck am I using a weapon? Pepper spray, batons, wu-shu - pick one, but don't use a fucking gun to stun someone, particularly a gun which can kill even on stun.
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Post by Lancer »

brianeyci wrote:Of course, but I was talking more about ground weaponry, and the thread is about ground weaponry too.

After reading a bit on the net about disruptors, the general consensus about why disruptors aren't seen more frequently on ships is that they are difficult to put together into an "array". We haven't seen any turret-type guns in ST, and species use phasers because it is far easier to make a phaser "array" than it is to make a reliable ship-mounted disruptor.

Brian
TOS phasers and disruptors were for the most part turret-style emplacements on the ship. Here's a pic from ST: TWOK (courtesy of DITL) when the Enterprise fires on the Reliant.
Image
DITL also has a screenie of a Negh'Var firing from what appears to be disruptor turrets
Image
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Post by General Zod »

in terms of actual combat value disruptors seem superior. you don't want to have to worry about what power setting your weapon is on when you're trying to shoot down the enemy, and it's far less difficult to maintain and upkeep than phasers are. On the other hand a phaser would be useful in settings where you don't necessarily want to kill your enemy, such as wanting to take prisoners alive for questioning. So imo it really depends on the situation.
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Post by brianeyci »

Yes, I watched TOS =D. And what I meant by turrets was some sort of mechanism that rotates al la SW turbolaster emplacement style, that fired with a 360 degree firing arc. Phaser arrays, for example on the Galaxy, seem to be able to do that, but for those "turrets" on TOS Enterprise, they always seem to fire in one direction with a limited firing arc.

And of course, disruptors would fire from turrets, because as I mentioned, disruptors are impossible to put together into an "arrray" like phasers.

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Standard combat...

Post by Rihannsu Science Officer »

I'd prefer the Romulan disruptor, no questions asked. It's more ergonomic than the Federation phaser, not something you cobble together out of pieces of armor like the Klingon disruptor in TNG's "Heart of Glory". It also has multiple settings (in TNG's "Unification" Spock claims unfamiliarity with Romulan disruptor settings, suggesting they may have a stun setting. We know they have various settings from visuals too. In TNG's "Face of the Enemy" N'Vek is disintegrated by a shot from a Romulan disruptor. In DS9's "The Search" T'Rul shoots a Jem'Hadar soldier with a disruptor, knocking him down. The weapon was probably set to kill, but may have been stun if she was worried about her weapon running out of energy or interested in questioning the Jem'Hadar as a prisoner, but we know there is more than one setting.

We also know from DS9's "Sons of Mogh" that disruptors have a stun setting. When Worf asks Odo to make Kurn a deputy, Odo asks if Kurn knows how to use the stun setting on a disruptor. Worf replies that non-lethal skills are not prized among Klingons.
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Post by Sokartawi »

Here is a nice site about this stuff:
http://startrek.sorozat.info/startrek/c ... l/ds9m104h
Lacking the Romulan disruptors and of course the ones minor races use, but meh, it's a start.

I'm pretty fond of the Dominion disruptor pistol. "In Purgatory's Shadow"
is a nice episode where they are used a lot.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Do we know that the Card ships are using phasers? Or is it just because its a beam? Cause in Nemesis Picard is able to swtich a Romulan disruptor to a beam setting to weld a door shut.
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Post by Sarevok »

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Do we know that the Card ships are using phasers? Or is it just because its a beam? Cause in Nemesis Picard is able to swtich a Romulan disruptor to a beam setting to weld a door shut.
Cardassian starships do use beam phasers. It was mentioned in TNG Chain of Command : Part II

[quote = "Jellico"]
Your ships will leave the nebula
one by one. Each ship will eject
its primary phaser coil before
setting course for the nearest
Cardassian base.
[/quote]
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Post by brianeyci »

Image
(Bernd's site)

Interesting that the Romulan disruptor seems to be sleek, elegant, and ergonomic, reminicent to the old TOS series Type-II's phasers.

The Federation of the Next Gen and later eras using the "women's shaver" model of a phaser could probably be explained in-universe without resorting to "The Federation was stupid." We see phasers being used for everything from heating rocks to welding a door in TOS, yet they still looked like phasers. There is no reason why the Federation of the Next Gen era would not have continued using phasers as a general purpose tool, and perhaps over time the shape of a phaser became "demilitarized" to the point that they ended up looking nothing like a gun at all, turning into the Type-II we all know and love.

One thing to note is that the Klingon disruptor seems to have a sight to it. The Romulan disruptor doesn't look like it has any aiming device at all.

I would still prefer the Klingon disruptor as a sidearm, because of the apparent aiming device, and easy maintainence -- if you can create one out of Klingon body armor, they are easy to disassemble and perhaps easier to maintain.

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Post by Stark »

Tee hee, autoaiming phasers...

Since the only good thing you can say about phasers is their apparent use of 1337 powers, despite the fact they rarely use them in combat, suggesting serious problems with these 'abilities', thats not really much of a compliment. However, from what I've seen disruptors are depicted as being in some way more primitive.

The disruptors look simpler and easier to use, so I think they'd make a better general issue weapon. The pulse phaser rifle makes up for a lot tho; all it needs is an underbarrel buckshot addon and it'd be the 'Most Sensible TNG-era Weapon'... apart from the poor manufacturing quality; you don't want your gun breaking in half on you :)
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Post by brianeyci »

I've come to believe that "autoaiming" is the wrong word to use. After seeing Worf being outshot by a Ferengi, this "autoaiming" assumption needs some work.

We do see off-axis firing, and phaser beam movement independent of the motion of the user's arm in beam type phaser fire. "Autoaiming" implies some sort of system that replaces the user's need for hand-eye co-ordination. Maybe "Off-axis limited target acquisition" would be better... a little longer than "autoaiming" but is closer to what I am trying to communicate.

<edit>Thought of a one-word replacement to "autoaiming" -- "assisted aiming"</edit>

The pulse phaser rifle doesn't seem to have a widebeam setting. Maybe the "buckshot" addition could be a strapped on Type-II phaser, with its controls integrated into the phaser rifle.

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Post by The Silence and I »

Phaser pulse rifles are definately the best TNG+ Federation weapon. Now, if they combined features from all the versions into one model it would be perfect--well nearly so.

First Contact rifles--better-looing tip, possibly better iron sight feasibility, and rock-solid durability.
Insurrection rifle can just be ignored...
Nemesis rifle--improved sights by way of tareting reticle on top, no non-sense assisted aiming and improved rate of fire.

Combine all these, and you will have a superior weapon.
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Post by brianeyci »

The only thing lacking would be the widebeam capability. A Type-II integrated into the undercarriage, with its controls integrated into the phaser rifle, could provide a widebeam capability and a sidearm if one were easily able to withdraw and insert the Type-II from under the phaser rifle.

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Post by Praxis »

I dunno. I don't like handling beam weapons as much as bolt weapons (judging from the Trek and Wars games I've played, anyway).

Both phasers and disruptors have enough firepower to kill someone in one hit. The disruptor looks more ergonomical and fires the way I perfer. I'd take the disruptor.
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Post by Winston Blake »

Is it just me, or does that pic in the OP look like Data is showing off his giant radioactive dick to everyone:

Image
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Post by NecronLord »

Given that the Romulans have demonstrated the capability to produce a superior copy of the federation phaser rifle, (TNG The Mind's Eye) they must be sticking with disruptors for a reason. I suspect this reason is increased killing power.
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Post by Stark »

Ugh, auto-aiming again.

Certainly, phasers demonstrate off-axis firing. This in no way correlates to any actual aim-modification being performed with an eye to increasing accuracy. Given the appalling ergonomics of many phasers, it seems likely that stripping it down and modifying the hardware (as we see dudes do all the time) would allow a user to set their emitter geometry to however they like, to suit their firing style. Alternately it could simply be poor manufacturing quality control. There are three buttons on early TNG phasers, IIRC, and that ain't enough to use any complex system, since those buttons are 'power up', 'power down' and 'shoot'. They also continue to miss; indeed an argument could be made that some of these weapons are simply laughably inaccurate.

And to my knowledge 'wide beam' is never used for anything useful. Noone uses it to sweep corridors, noone uses it to shoot into or around corners, except to stun. Given the much higher power demands for such a wider beam, it seems likely that widebeam is simply militarily useless and wide-kill beams use too much power, perhaps more power than the emitters can handle.
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Post by Gandalf »

I'd take a phaser. Mainly because the stun setting might be more handy than something that can only kill.
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Post by General Zod »

Stark wrote:
And to my knowledge 'wide beam' is never used for anything useful. Noone uses it to sweep corridors, noone uses it to shoot into or around corners, except to stun. Given the much higher power demands for such a wider beam, it seems likely that widebeam is simply militarily useless and wide-kill beams use too much power, perhaps more power than the emitters can handle.
afaik, wide beam was actually put to some decent use in Voyager. When they had the macrophage viruses invading the ship they were using wide-beam phasers to sweep the jeffries' tubes while they were crawling through the vessel to avoid the viruses. Not saying it's ever been shown to be used more than this per se, but that's at least one practical applicatioin.
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Post by brianeyci »

My theory goes like this. Over time, the phasers became less and less militarized from the TOS phaser pistol shape, to the TNG cobra shape. The assisted aiming technology is part of this demilitarization, as the Feds became totally reliant on their aiming system and started ignoring the ergonomics of the phaser because of this assisted aiming technology. Note that I say assisted-aiming, not auto-aiming, as the aim still has to be in the general direction of the fire. For example, the beam will not go off-axis 80 degrees. Eventually, during the Dominion war, they realized their grunts were totally handicapped in hand-eye co-ordination, and they introduced pulse-firing rifles which forced their users to practise by aiming through a sight.
Stark wrote:Ugh, auto-aiming again.

Certainly, phasers demonstrate off-axis firing. This in no way correlates to any actual aim-modification being performed with an eye to increasing accuracy.
You would be correct. Off-axis would not correlate to aim-modification. However, off-axis with accuracy would correlate to aim-modification. Sure you can throw in examples of a phaser missing. However for each example, I can find two with a beam phaser hitting. Think about it. If Federation phasers were so poorly designed that they had manufacturing defects of this scale, phasers would be totally useless because the user would miss every single time. Every single time, hand-eye co-ordination would be reset, because the user would have to learn to aim on a different axis. The miss-to-hit ratio would be immense. Try fucking with the sight on a gun with an olympic sharpshooter. Fuck with the sight every single time and see how well they do. This would be the equivalent of a beam firing randomly off axis. The olympic sharpshooter would miss almost all the time, at least the first few shots until he adjusted. By which time you would fuck with the sight again, because we have seen the same phaser fire off-axis in the same episode, and change axis! And despite this they still manage to hit! We do not see inaccuracy to this scale with phasers.
Given the appalling ergonomics of many phasers, it seems likely that stripping it down and modifying the hardware (as we see dudes do all the time) would allow a user to set their emitter geometry to however they like, to suit their firing style.
This theory would work. If it were not for the following.

Image
Image
(Riker using a Type-I, Phasers.net, hosted on my own webspace)

Image
Image
(Riker using a Type-II, Phasers.net, hosted on my webspace)

If Riker was adjusting his phaser to fire on a certain axis to suit his firing style, why does his firing style change so often? We also see a phaser fire off-axis, and during the same episode, fire off-axis on a different axis! And the shot still hits! What you are saying is that Riker deliberately handicaps himself by throwing away all his previous experience with a certain axis, resetting his phaser to fire on a different axis between episodes -- actually, during the same episode and during the same scene, and still manages to hit. That is the same as saying Riker is stupid, and somehow he is so lucky that everytime someone fucks with his sight, he can still hit. If Riker was purposefully adjusting his geometry to match his style, he would keep a consistent axis.
Alternately it could simply be poor manufacturing quality control.
Phasers then, would demonstrate a far higher miss-to-hit ratio than we have seen. Phasers would miss almost all the time, since the axis of fire is never consistent. But Riker keeps getting those lucky shots. Unless you say that in between episodes, Riker retrains himself to fire on a different axis. But this is absurd, given that Riker could just keep the same hand phaser and practise with its axis of fire. Or, as you say, alter the geometry of the phaser always to fire on the same axis. But this doesn't happen. And, there are examples of phaser fire in the same scene with the same phaser changing axis, with no time for Riker to adjust to the new firing axis.
There are three buttons on early TNG phasers, IIRC, and that ain't enough to use any complex system, since those buttons are 'power up', 'power down' and 'shoot'.
Early TNG phasers have just as many buttons as late TNG phasers -- three. Even the First Contact Type-II's have the same number of buttons -- three, with a small bar.

Image
(Early Type-I phaser, Phasers.net, hosted on my own webspace)
Image
(TNG Type-II phaser, Phasers.net, hosted on my own webspace)
Image
(ST:FC Type-II phaser, Phasers.net, hosted on my own webspace)

By your explaination, phasers should be able to do nothing but power up, power down, and shoot. However, we know this isn't true.

TNG Script, "The Game"

Wesley moving cautiously along. He stops at an
intersection between two corridors and kneels down.
He reaches into his pocket and reveals a TYPE-ONE
PHASER (a smaller version of the regular phasers) and
presses a command into it. He lays the phaser on the
arm rail, aiming it at the intersection.... then
activates it. The phaser sends out a series of weak,
sporadic BURSTS -- the tiny beams absorbed harmlessly
into the wall.

So Wesley manages to use a Type-I to fire with sporadic bursts repeatedly. If you say this could be one of the power settings, then we have a contradiction as a power setting has nothing to do with continuous fire. Three buttons means nothing -- depending on the software, the phaser could manage to do a lot of shit with three buttons. One could surmise that three buttons would be the absolute minimum necessary -- a fire button, and two function buttons.
They also continue to miss; indeed an argument could be made that some of these weapons are simply laughably inaccurate.
"Laughably inaccurate"? For every example you show me of a hand phaser missing, I can explain why the phaser misses, and introduce two other examples of the hand phaser hitting. Missing would be one of the limitations of the assisted aiming technology -- anyone agile enough, who realized how much the Feds relied on this technology, could duck around corners, run around, and defeat the assisted aiming. But if you were too slow, the tracking would work and you would be vaporized.
And to my knowledge 'wide beam' is never used for anything useful. Noone uses it to sweep corridors, noone uses it to shoot into or around corners, except to stun. Given the much higher power demands for such a wider beam, it seems likely that widebeam is simply militarily useless and wide-kill beams use too much power, perhaps more power than the emitters can handle.
Wide-beam stun is what has been observed, so lets say wide-beam stun is all there is. It would still be useful. We have not seen anybody using wide-beam stun to shoot around corners or sweep corridors either, and nobody in Trek wears body armor (other than I remember Borg, Hirogen and Klingons), so it would be useful to sweep with widebeam stun. They do not though -- this could be explained by bad training, rather than saying that widebeam is not useful, because it obviously is for the reasons you pointed out.

So to summarize my theory,
1. Original TOS phasers did not have assisted aiming and thus were shaped roughly like a gun allowing the user to aim.
2. Assisted aiming came in. Over time, the designers started relying on the assisted aiming and started making the phaser less and less ergonomical -- they even went as far as minaturizing the phaser to be smaller than a cell phone, making aiming by hand-eye co-ordination impossible if not extremely difficult.
3. As a result, people stopped target shooting and had bad aim. Only the Guinan and Picard types maintained their hand-eye co-ordination abilities. The assisted aiming technology was not perfect, as someone agile enough could dodge phaser fire. This was demonstrated with the war with the Dominion, and Starfleet introduced pulse-firing phasers to conserve ammunition and to force users to start using an aiming receptacle.

The above is better than,
1. There is no assisted aiming, and thus all phaser hits are flukes, as axis has been observed to change on the same phaser in the same episode in the same scene.

My theory explains why the Federation would have made their phasers less and less ergonomical, still maintained a reasonable level of accuracy, and then later created a weapon with a sight. It is better than "LOLOloloslool1shift!!!!!shift1 the Federation is stoooooooopid", because it explains the erognomical change, explains why Type-I's were able to maintain a reasonable level of accuracy, and explains the later switch to pulse-firing sighted phaser rifles.

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Post by The Silence and I »

Very well said brianeyci *claps*
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