The truth about S-8472.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-20 06:47pm

that would explain the delay in the actual destruction of the Borg planet.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-20 07:10pm

This episode with the non-destroyed planet - what happened in it

I've forgtten much of it but the intial way it works out is Voyager(I THINK) picks up survivors from planet attacked by 8472 with da 9 ship attack and go on to confront them some-how

I'm not sure but if I remeber correctly its the same one with the Fake Crewmeber who's realy an 8472

Shadow's the one who brought this up he knows all the details I have forgetten

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-20 07:18pm

Mr Bean: The only 8472 episodes I remember are, Scorpion 1 and 2, The one where the Hirogen are hunting one of them and In the flesh (where they are prentending to be starfleet).

However is possible I forgot/repressed the episode you are talking about.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-20 07:22pm

There are Four Epsiodes with 8472

I'll check up on The Data-Base latter and see if I can nail it down

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-20 07:28pm

I know there was Scorpion, and then the one with the fake San Francisco.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-20 08:17pm

"My concept of the EMP pulse propagating through an EPS grid would have radically different effects against a world without the dense grid coverage and inherently dangerous groundside antimatter reactors I expect of a Borg planet."

Nice analysis. However, in Q Who, the Borg Cube being scanned was reported to utilize an unknown power source. That would imply that we aren't dealing with antimatter. Furthermore, I haven't heard about Borg using antimatter in any episode. Does anyone know of AM use among the Borg?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-20 08:43pm

Elas thanks for playing Devils Advocte but your forgetting somthing
Borg Asorb Tecnology and then use it for thier own, In Q Who was the first time they have ever ran into any Federation ships yet so they could not have assimated thier tecnolgoy
BUT when 8472 goes planet busting they had been around for awhile, Gotten the tast of Federation Tecnology and could have converted over, just because it was unknow does not mean it was better.(And the Borg seem to get slight smart, faster, Stronger after running into the Feds, preahps this is another indcator they copied thier power and shield Tecnology)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-20 08:54pm

BOBW - Picard says htat the speed of the Borgs travel shows they have a far superior power source.

Now it could have been that they took a transwarp conduit but they should have arrived must faster unless they only took a short one but this is reaching - I still want to know of these people who left a planet after it had been hit by a planet buster.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-20 09:08pm

TheDarkling wrote:BOBW - Picard says htat the speed of the Borgs travel shows they have a far superior power source.

Now it could have been that they took a transwarp conduit but they should have arrived must faster unless they only took a short one but this is reaching - I still want to know of these people who left a planet after it had been hit by a planet buster.

Borg speed without a Conduit amazes the Feds, as they clock in around 7000c. (Best Of Both Worlds, Part I)

Power source is never indicated, however, it seems to be that antimatter is required for Warp propulsion, and it should be noted they show the same propensity for detonating like a bomb when damaged badly enough.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-20 09:12pm

SirNitram: Romulans dont use a AM/M reactor and they have warp speed so the warp drive doesnt require that the power come from a AM/M reactor.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-20 09:14pm

TheDarkling wrote:SirNitram: Romulans dont use a AM/M reactor and they have warp speed so the warp drive doesnt require that the power come from a AM/M reactor.

Conceeded. But they still pack their ships with C4 explosive for unknown reasons.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-20 09:18pm

BOBW - Picard " If this is the Borg it would indicate that they have a source of power far superior to our own"

SO they do indicate this - I always thought it odd because it doesnt indicate greater power just better propulsion, the two dont always follow.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-20 09:27pm

TheDarkling wrote:BOBW - Picard " If this is the Borg it would indicate that they have a source of power far superior to our own"

SO they do indicate this - I always thought it odd because it doesnt indicate greater power just better propulsion, the two dont always follow.

Quite. Of course, the Cube was going twice what the as-yet-unbuilt Voyager would be doing at Maximum Warp, for a year. This is a very large jump, but we would later learn that a Warp Core can handle Transwarp and Transwarp speeds(Although hull shape could not, ref: VOY Hope and Fear). In the end, we are left scratching our heads.

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2002-07-20 10:35pm

There have never been survivors in a S8472 attack.

Scorpion-A planet is destroyed, and there are certainly no survivors.
Prey-It was about a lone S8472. No planets attacked.
In the Flesh-Voyager spends the whole episode at the S8472 terrasphere. No planets attacked.
Unimatrix Zero-S8472 mentioned 3 times. No planets attacked.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-20 11:07pm

I was mistaken then, Aurgment Droped

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-07-21 03:29am

Darn and I thought that it was going to be:

Larry Niven has the right to Sue Berman and Bragga for all they have for making such a pathertic, lame Puppeteer rip off.

"They are Charging their Bioships"-Kzin
"Activate Puppeteer Stasis Shields, and RAMMING SPEED!"- Captain H'mall

From the very short war between Voyager and the Known Universe.

Moonstone Spider · Post by **Moonstone Spider** » 2002-07-21 03:43am

From the very short war between Voyager and the Known Universe.

The Pupeteers (or most known space races) could probably take on Trek and Wars at the same time, and win easily. It's a pain facing a species who's starship hulls can withstand slamming into a neutron star at a significant portion of C without damage. I'm not sure a direct hit from the Death Star would cause damage to the hull, though it would take out things on the hull surface like weapons and external reaction drives.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-07-21 04:02am

Look at a them, they are Puppeteers with just one head. The first time I saw them on my Room Mate's TV I looked up and said "What are Puppeteers doing on Star Trek?"

Then I saw the Sonao and wondered why BBC really hasn't sued them.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2002-07-21 07:03am

"Elas thanks for playing Devils Advocte but your forgetting somthing
Borg Asorb Tecnology and then use it for thier own, In Q Who was the first time they have ever ran into any Federation ships yet so they could not have assimated thier tecnolgoy"

No problem, Master Bean. I still contend that we don't see them use antimatter on ships or planets.

"BUT when 8472 goes planet busting they had been around for awhile, Gotten the tast of Federation Tecnology and could have converted over, just because it was unknow does not mean it was better.(And the Borg seem to get slight smart, faster, Stronger after running into the Feds, preahps this is another indcator they copied thier power and shield Tecnology)"

Intriguing idea to be sure. However, I'm not sure it's more than a possibility among many.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-21 10:57am

Eleas wrote:"My concept of the EMP pulse propagating through an EPS grid would have radically different effects against a world without the dense grid coverage and inherently dangerous groundside antimatter reactors I expect of a Borg planet."

Nice analysis. However, in Q Who, the Borg Cube being scanned was reported to utilize an unknown power source. That would imply that we aren't dealing with antimatter. Furthermore, I haven't heard about Borg using antimatter in any episode. Does anyone know of AM use among the Borg?

Thanks, Eleas. Good point.

I do have quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to bolster my analysis, but it is, unfortunately, just circumtantial. Duck and cover, because here comes all the circumstantial stuff:

In Scorpion, Part 1, Chakotay does a quick tricorder scan of a bioship that is in the process of regenerating itself. Chakotay's Line: "There's a chamber beyond this opening, 40 meters wide, high concentrations of antimatter particles. Looks like a warp propulsion system of some kind." That is fairly strong indication that Starfleet considers antimatter to be an essential component of a warp drive system. (It is also strong indication that the bioships have basic warp drive, though they may also just use the stuff to power their main gun. A large antimatter reactor without attendant warp drive would provide a lot of power for the main gun.)

More generally, the majority of vessels encountered in TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager conform to one of two basic designs:

1. A hull with two or more embedded warp nacelles, usually producing a nasty blue, green or red glow.

2. A hull with two or more warp nacelles held clear of the hull by means of structural members, again usually with the attendant technicolor glow.

That is fairly strong circumstantial evidence that warp nacelles and coils containing high energy plasma are an essential component of a conventional warp drive. If this holds true, which is always uncertain with Trek, then it would have to hold true for the Borg. Given the initial Borg penchant, later reversed, for extreme decentralization in ship construction, it appears fairly plausible that the Borg warp systems employ a large number of relatively small nacelles. That would also explain the otherwise pointless and seemingly random green glowing bits on Borg cubes if one considers them to be the exposed portions of warp nacelles.

Similarly, when the bioship attacks the Borg cube pacing Voyager during the alliance between the Borg and Janeway, all three vessels are at warp based on the streaming stars in the background (so the beam works at warp), and the bioship shows a dense pattern of amber glowing panels along its hull, indicating that it is basically nothing more than a really big gun strapped to a really big impules/warp engine system.

There appear to be two possible (or accepted) ways to generate the necessary volume of highly energetic plasma: matter/antimatter reactions, and feeding junk into a small singularity. Both are staples of general science fiction, with the matter/antimatter reactor being more commonly employed in science fiction. Also, based on the fact that a Promelian battle cruiser was found in a fairly remote system, and Picard referred to the cruiser's

If one has a reasonably efficient way to generate antimatter, then an antimatter-based system provides high energy levels, albeit with the need for regular replenishment of antimatter fuel. If one has a means of generating stable singularities, or can obtain them from a natural source such as a globular cluster full of thousands of long-dead stars, then the initial startup costs may be much higher, but long-term logistics become simpler as the singularity can be used to generate power using ordinary matter. Just remember that we're talking definite fantasy technology.

The TNG episode Boobytrap provides some slight (and very, very creaky) circumstantial evidence that extremely low warp performance may be obtainable strictly through the use of nuclear fusion systems. Seeing the first visual of the derelict Promelian battle cruiser, Picard says the following:
"With its Lang(?)-cycle fusion engines still intact."
The statement is horrendously open to interpretation, however, and I am not about to stake anything on its applicability.

Another direct support of my idea that the bioship beams act as waveguides for a harmful electromagnetic pulse is an incident in part 2 of Scorpion. A Borg cube towing Voyager is attacked by a bioship. One of the beams penetrates the cube's shields and grazes the hull, leading to a spectacular surface blowout explosion followed by a string of smaller internal explosions near where Janeway and Tuvok are working at collaborating with the enemy. A drone is blown right out of its alcove linkage by what appears to be a standard Starfleet exploding console effect. A string what is effectively chain lightning branching off the main beam (and looking like a miniature version of the bioship beam) wanders down the corridor Janeway is standing in and strikes here a glancing blow. Janeway suffers plasma burns, and all her neural electrical pathways are disrupted (which realistically should have immediately killed her, immediately improving the show).

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-21 01:10pm

Another thing I should have mentioned, just to add to my great steaming pile of circumstantial evidence (and feel free to contradict me on this if my memory proves faulty):

The Romulans, who use artificial singularities as the power sources for their TNG and later cruisers, do not appear to use photon torpedoes from TNG onward (except possibly in the incident in which a small force of Romulan and Cardassian ships tried to wipe out the homeworld of the Founders). Instead, I seem to recall several references to plasma torpedoes being used by the Romulans. After all, the Romulans should have plenty of plasma available, but no reason for their ships to carry antimatter fuel.