Borg vs Tholians

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2004-10-17 06:53pm

More specifically, could the Borg assimilate a crystalline life form like the Tholians?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-10-17 07:57pm

Well, Borg nanoprobes can assimilate organic beings and technology. Which catagory do the Tholians fall under?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-10-17 08:13pm

Robert Walper wrote:Well, Borg nanoprobes can assimilate organic beings and technology. Which catagory do the Tholians fall under?

Nice hasty generalization. Borg can absorb most organic beings we've seen so far, and Fed-level tech, up to and including 29th century ones it seems. That by no means they can assimilate ALL of them.
Furthermore, IIRC all of the lifeforms we've seen assimilated were of the garden-variety carbpn-based kind. They may be utterly incapable of assimilating crystalline lifeforms.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-10-17 08:27pm

Batman wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Well, Borg nanoprobes can assimilate organic beings and technology. Which catagory do the Tholians fall under?
Nice hasty generalization. Borg can absorb most organic beings we've seen so far,

Where, exactly, did I state that Borg nanoprobes can assimilate any organic being? Right off the bat Species 8472 comes to mind as a organic race that couldn't be assimilated, at least initally.

and Fed-level tech, up to and including 29th century ones it seems. That by no means they can assimilate ALL of them.

See above.

Furthermore, IIRC all of the lifeforms we've seen assimilated were of the garden-variety carbon-based kind. They may be utterly incapable of assimilating crystalline lifeforms.

Borg nanoprobes can also infect technological systems like computer consoles and interfaces. My point being if Tholians share physical traits similar to either type of system, seems likely the Borg could assimilate them.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-10-18 07:17am

Robert Walper wrote:
Batman wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Well, Borg nanoprobes can assimilate organic beings and technology. Which catagory do the Tholians fall under?
Nice hasty generalization. Borg can absorb most organic beings we've seen so far,
Where, exactly, did I state that Borg nanoprobes can assimilate any organic being? Right off the bat Species 8472 comes to mind as a organic race that couldn't be assimilated, at least initally.

You may not have said so specifically, but a blankt statement like that can easily be interpreted that way. As you are aware that there are limits, I have no further problem.

Furthermore, IIRC all of the lifeforms we've seen assimilated were of the garden-variety carbon-based kind. They may be utterly incapable of assimilating crystalline lifeforms.

Borg nanoprobes can also infect technological systems like computer consoles and interfaces. My point being if Tholians share physical traits similar to either type of system, seems likely the Borg could assimilate them.[/quote]
The Tholians are living organisms and thus obviously not technology.
unless there's any evidence of them being cyborgs.
As all the organics the Borg habe been shown to assimilate so far are the usual carbon-based flesh-and-blood variety, the Tholians being organic beings means diddly squat as they are a crystalline lifeform (well, twchnically a lifeform can be carbon-based AND crystalline-Emma Frost, anybody?-but I think you know what I mean)

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2004-10-18 08:38am

Robert Walper wrote:Well, Borg nanoprobes can assimilate organic beings and technology. Which catagory do the Tholians fall under?

All indications point to Tholians being a crystalline sentient life-form that live in environments of extreme heat. So, if they're not carbon based, nor suited to exist in a class-M environment, would the borg still be able to assimilate them, or are they an incompatible species?

I've only seen Borg assimilating Class-M, carbon-based humanoids, but I never saw Voyager, so I might be mistaken.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-10-18 10:10am

We have never seen the Borg assimilate non-carbon based lifeforms. However, this does not mean they are incapable of doing so. And since the vast majority of sentient species we've seen are carbon based, it makes sense that the vast majority of the Borg collective is made up of carbon based lifeforms. So it's not clear if ALL Borg drones are carbon based, or that there are non-carbon based drones out there that we haven't seen (after all, there must be trillions of Drones, and we've only seen a fraction of them on screen).

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-18 11:44am

Since we have not seen the Borg assimilate crystalline lifeforms, if you want to claim that they have the ability to, you got to give some sort of evidence. I learned about burden of proof the hard way. Its pointless to try and argue about "possibilities" -- sure, the Borg might have KE shields, sure the Borg might be able to assimilate crystalline lifeforms, and absence of proof does not mean proof of absence. However we have no reason to think the Borg can assimilate non-carbon based lifeforms -- actually non-humanoid lifeforms.

Do you remember the TNG episode (there were two) which dealt with the Enterprise trying to find a piece of an ancient archaeological artifact? In the end, the Romulans got a piece, the Klingons got a piece, and so did the Picard and gang. When they got to the planet, they found it wasn't a superweapon, but an explaination for life in the galaxy. Apparently, there were aliens who seeded the entire galaxy with humanoids, after they found that the galaxy was devoid of life. So, basically we have a canon explaination why the galaxy is made up of people with bad face putty.

So it is entirely possible that the Borg have only assimilated humanoid lifeforms and not crystalline/sillicone based ones.

Brian

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-10-18 11:46am

I've only seen Borg assimilating Class-M, carbon-based humanoids, but I never saw Voyager, so I might be mistaken.

In Voyager the Borg failed to assimilate Species 8472. However it was not due to their genetics. The reason nanoprobes failed was the Species 8472 had damn good immune system that killed any nanoprobes before they could get to work.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-18 11:53am

Bellator wrote:We have never seen the Borg assimilate non-carbon based lifeforms. However, this does not mean they are incapable of doing so. And since the vast majority of sentient species we've seen are carbon based, it makes sense that the vast majority of the Borg collective is made up of carbon based lifeforms. So it's not clear if ALL Borg drones are carbon based, or that there are non-carbon based drones out there that we haven't seen (after all, there must be trillions of Drones, and we've only seen a fraction of them on screen).

until we see evidence that the borg actually can assimilate other life forms beyond carbon based, we have no reason to believe that they can. If you want to make an argument in favor of it, then the onus is on you to provide evidence. Saying that it's not clear whether they can or not when there's absolutely zero evidence they can at all is a common copout technique.

Bellator · Post by **Bellator** » 2004-10-18 12:45pm

Indeed, there is litte evidence that they can assimilate non-carbon based lifeforms.

Indeed, the burden of proof lies with people who claim they can assimilate non-carbon based lifeforms (I'm not saying they can).

Though concluding that Borg cannot assimilate non-carbon based lifeforms, based on the very limited amount of data available to us, is going one step too far.

Although, on second thought, even Species 8472 was organic. And organic means "Of or designating carbon compounds" according to the dictionary. And the Borg Queen seemed to indicate the Borg want to assimilate all worthy organic lifeforms. So the little evidence available to us is leaning us towards a "no, they cannot"-answer.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2004-10-18 01:03pm

Seven of Nine mentioned they assimilated energy based lifeforms in some episode, can't remember which one.

Utah Jak · Post by **Utah Jak** » 2004-10-18 01:30pm

I don't know but it would be interesting to see.

Sokartawi · Post by **Sokartawi** » 2004-10-18 01:35pm

Dark Primus wrote:Seven of Nine mentioned they assimilated energy based lifeforms in some episode, can't remember which one.

Ha, an ethereal Borg.

They might have said that but I have a hard time believing it is possible, and VGR is quite good at comming up with rediculous things anyway, so...

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-10-18 05:29pm

Dark Primus wrote:Seven of Nine mentioned they assimilated energy based lifeforms in some episode, can't remember which one.

Species 259 in "The Gift." Seven says they were "technologically advanced" and "...inhabited Galactic Cluster 3, a transmaterial energy plane intersecting 22 billion omnicordial lifeforms." (Technobabble overload.)They were the lot from whom the Borg assimilated technology somehow integral to "regenerating" stuff.

Borg Species List

I don't have a complete script onhand, but it might be that the Borg didn't assimilate the beings themselves--just their technology.