YT300000 vs Walper, Comment thread

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Robert Walper
Dishonest Resident Borg Fan-Whore
Posts: 4206
Joined: 2002-08-08 03:56am
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Robert Walper »

Jon wrote:Locutus, Borg Queen... I can see it now, rosy cheeks, bad wig...
It's hard to dismiss the similarities:

-The Borg Queen is originally from a assimilated species. Picard is also from an assimilated species.
-Picard's assimilation was unique. Particular note to how his body was assimilated, but his origianl form was not compromised.
-Picards "speaks for the Borg. The Queen "speaks for the Borg."
-The Queen claimed Picard would be a "counterpart" or "equal". Well, since there's more than one Queen, he wouldn't be unique in that aspect. The major difference being his gender, and his designation as "Locutus".
Makes sense, Robert.
Well, I certainly think so.
User avatar
Jon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2004-03-02 10:11am
Location: Manchester UK

Post by Jon »

No, I wasn't being sarcastic fella. I was likening him to a 'Drag Queen...' :roll:

When I said 'Makes Sense', on a seperate line, I was agreeing with what you had posted ;)
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

I've always considered the Queen a sort of "root user" since she obviously could control the collective (as evidenced when she had a Borg Cube destroyed because it had 3 people on it).

This also explains why everything started blowing up when the Queen got infected with a virus.
User avatar
Jon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2004-03-02 10:11am
Location: Manchester UK

Post by Jon »

Praxis wrote:I've always considered the Queen a sort of "root user" since she obviously could control the collective (as evidenced when she had a Borg Cube destroyed because it had 3 people on it).

This also explains why everything started blowing up when the Queen got infected with a virus.
I think that is where the confusion is, she can't 'control' the collective... she is the collective. A defined difference
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Jon wrote:
Praxis wrote:I've always considered the Queen a sort of "root user" since she obviously could control the collective (as evidenced when she had a Borg Cube destroyed because it had 3 people on it).

This also explains why everything started blowing up when the Queen got infected with a virus.
I think that is where the confusion is, she can't 'control' the collective... she is the collective. A defined difference
True, but a program with root access is still part of the computer, is it not?
User avatar
Jon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2004-03-02 10:11am
Location: Manchester UK

Post by Jon »

Yes Indeed, but I prefer to think that when the queen is talking, when she is performing actions, it isn't 'her' but the collective will, there is no heirarchy whatsoever... so when she destroyed that borg ship in Unimatrix Zero, she alone didn't decide to do it, the collective did- she doesn;t have a singular mind, even if she refers to herself in the first person.

But, I understand what you're referring to with the root access reference.
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Jon wrote:Yes Indeed, but I prefer to think that when the queen is talking, when she is performing actions, it isn't 'her' but the collective will, there is no heirarchy whatsoever... so when she destroyed that borg ship in Unimatrix Zero, she alone didn't decide to do it, the collective did- she doesn;t have a singular mind, even if she refers to herself in the first person.

But, I understand what you're referring to with the root access reference.

It's a possibility- either theory works, and neither is simpler, so we can't use Occam's Razor.
User avatar
Bob the Gunslinger
Has not forgotten the face of his father
Posts: 4760
Joined: 2004-01-08 06:21pm
Location: Somewhere out west

Post by Bob the Gunslinger »

If she is the Borg, wouldn't her sexual encounter with Data be the biggest gangbang in starfleet history?
"Gunslinger indeed. Quick draw, Bob. Quick draw." --Count Chocula

"Unquestionably, Dr. Who is MUCH lighter in tone than WH40K. But then, I could argue the entirety of WWII was much lighter in tone than WH40K." --Broomstick

"This is ridiculous. I look like the Games Workshop version of a Jedi Knight." --Harry Dresden, Changes

"Like...are we canonical?" --Aaron Dembski-Bowden to Dan Abnett
User avatar
YT300000
Sith'ari
Posts: 6528
Joined: 2003-05-20 12:49pm
Location: Calgary, Canada
Contact:

Post by YT300000 »

Jesus Fucking Christ. With all this homework, I'm barely getting 20 min of SDN time every day. It's looking like I won't be able to continue this until the weekend. I'm really sorry.
Name changes are for people who wear women's clothes. - Zuul

Wow. It took me a good minute to remember I didn't have testicles. -xBlackFlash

Are you sure this isn't like that time Michael Jackson stopped by your house so he could use the bathroom? - Superman
Robert Walper
Dishonest Resident Borg Fan-Whore
Posts: 4206
Joined: 2002-08-08 03:56am
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Robert Walper »

YT300000 wrote:Jesus Fucking Christ. With all this homework, I'm barely getting 20 min of SDN time every day. It's looking like I won't be able to continue this until the weekend. I'm really sorry.
Hey, no worries dude. I'm certainly in no rush. Real life does take priority, at least for some of us. :)
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:If she is the Borg, wouldn't her sexual encounter with Data be the biggest gangbang in starfleet history?

ROFL, good one! I was trying to remember something but my mind just wouldn't work- that was it!

Are you telling me that the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE wanted to seduce Data?
*shiver*
I'd much rather believe she was basicly a program with root access in the collective trying to seduce data, than the entire collective trying to seduce data. That'd just be...sickening. lol
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Oh, I noticed (YT, take note of this!) that Robert said in the debate thread that the Cube hadn't taken much damage. However, to quote from Mike Wong's hate mail:

"There was no evidence whatsoever of hull repairs going on, and we know that their shields were already down because they were taking a pounding, and ships were literally blowing chunks off the cube's surface. Moreover, Data said that they were already heavily damaged, and that their power grid was fluctuating. It was almost dead by the time the Enterprise-E showed up, and Picard merely provided the coup de grace."

If I remember, that's correct. Their power grid was fluctuating, chunks were blowing off the hull, etc. If you watch Q Who, the episode where they were introduced to the Borg, you'll notice how much damage a single phaser does to a Borg cube when the shields were down- it looked to me like the shields had just recently failed at the time the Enterprise got there and the shots were getting through and beginning to do some serious damage (as per Data's report), but hadn't gotten enough that it looked torn up from the outside.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18722
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Post by Rogue 9 »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:If she is the Borg, wouldn't her sexual encounter with Data be the biggest gangbang in starfleet history?
FUQ! :lol:
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Jon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1501
Joined: 2004-03-02 10:11am
Location: Manchester UK

Post by Jon »

Praxis wrote:
Are you telling me that the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE wanted to seduce Data?
*shiver*
If it was in their interests, then of course yes. They use the tool they have to do it with, they thought it would convince him to aide them.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16383
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Post by Gandalf »

Praxis wrote:Are you telling me that the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE wanted to seduce Data?
*shiver*
Borg Collective: We will hit that. Resistance is futile.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
Robert Walper
Dishonest Resident Borg Fan-Whore
Posts: 4206
Joined: 2002-08-08 03:56am
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Robert Walper »

Praxis wrote:Oh, I noticed (YT, take note of this!) that Robert said in the debate thread that the Cube hadn't taken much damage. However, to quote from Mike Wong's hate mail:
*snip*
If you're quote is referencing my hate mail entry on Mike's site, could we keep in mind that debate was years ago and I have since vastly changed my position and debating methods?
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Robert Walper wrote:
Praxis wrote:Oh, I noticed (YT, take note of this!) that Robert said in the debate thread that the Cube hadn't taken much damage. However, to quote from Mike Wong's hate mail:
*snip*
If you're quote is referencing my hate mail entry on Mike's site, could we keep in mind that debate was years ago and I have since vastly changed my position and debating methods?
Wow...I hadn't even realized you were on the Hate Mail!

No, I was quoting John Riehle's Hate Mail entry, not yours.
I just thought it was a good point. And it DOES counter your arguement about the FC cube.
Robert Walper
Dishonest Resident Borg Fan-Whore
Posts: 4206
Joined: 2002-08-08 03:56am
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Post by Robert Walper »

Praxis wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Praxis wrote:Oh, I noticed (YT, take note of this!) that Robert said in the debate thread that the Cube hadn't taken much damage. However, to quote from Mike Wong's hate mail:
*snip*
If you're quote is referencing my hate mail entry on Mike's site, could we keep in mind that debate was years ago and I have since vastly changed my position and debating methods?
Wow...I hadn't even realized you were on the Hate Mail!
Bow down before my mighty stubbornness and stupidity! Mawhaha! :twisted:
No, I was quoting John Riehle's Hate Mail entry, not yours.
I just thought it was a good point. And it DOES counter your arguement about the FC cube.
Well, if YT brings it up I can address it, but that's kinda sidetracking I think from the primary arguement.
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Jon wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Are you telling me that the ENTIRE COLLECTIVE wanted to seduce Data?
*shiver*
If it was in their interests, then of course yes. They use the tool they have to do it with, they thought it would convince him to aide them.
Nah. Just look at the queen. If she WAS the collective, she would talk like the Borg, act like them, etc, be completely logical. But she has a personality- she has her own wants and needs (like wanting a counterpart, despite having the whole collective to choose from), etc. She obviously represented the Borg and acted in their best interests, but she had her own personality, meaning she was not just a terminal through which ALL the Borg spoke.

It strikes me that the Borg DO seem to have a heirarchy- I'll compare this to networked computers. I would call their design an "extended star" heirarchy, as that's the type of network heirarchy they resemble.

There is each individual Borg at the bottom- each of those are directly connected to a Borg that seems to control the ship, either that or the Vinculum (I say this judging from BOBW- they were able to send commands through Picard to put every drone on the one cube to sleep, but they obviously weren't able to do that through the entire collective, suggesting that Picard had authority over just that cube. Plus the fact that he appeared to be in command of the cube whenever on the viewscreen suggests to me that he was higher up, perhaps the Borg equivilant of a Router). The Vinculum, in return, connects to one of the Unimatrixes, which connect to the Queen, which is the root. At least, this is what it looks like to me.

This also explains why the Queen getting infected allowed the virus to nuke practically everything...
Asdeed
Padawan Learner
Posts: 175
Joined: 2002-07-05 01:41pm
Location: Well if I knew, I wouldn't be lost, now would I!
Contact:

I LOVE THE PEANUT GALLERY!!!

Post by Asdeed »

Introducing my two cents worth!
Cent one, the efficiency of sending one cube. First off, a definition of efficiency.

ef·fi·cien·cy n.
1.The production of the desired effects or results with minimum waste of time, effort, or skill.
2.A measure of effectiveness; specifically, the useful work output divided by the energy input in any system.

Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.


So work versus reward right? Send one cube and risk gaining absolutely nothing if something goes wrong or send two and risk not having needed the second one. I'm sorry, but gaining something is obviously better than gaining nothing.


Cent two, the Borg attack in FC being incompetent. Again with the definitions

in·com·pe·tent
Pronunciation: in-'käm-p&-t&nt
Function: adjective
1 : not legally qualified: as a : lacking legal capacity (as because of age or mental deficiency) b : incapable due to mental or physical condition —compare COMPETENT c : lacking authority, power, or qualifications required by law <an incompetent court> <incompetent evidence>
2 : unable or failing to perform adequately <fired for being incompetent> <an incompetent attorney> —compare INEFFECTIVE ASSISTANCE OF COUNSEL

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


Unable or FAILING to perform adequately. They attempted to assimilate earth twice. They FAILED to assimilate earth twice. They didn't lack the means, Voyager (god I hate that show) demonstrated that.

So to sum up. The plan to again send one cube does not meet the definition of efficiency but it does meet the definition of incompetence.
User avatar
Praxis
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6012
Joined: 2002-12-22 04:02pm
Contact:

Post by Praxis »

Robert, in this post:
Your comment about the presence of the Borg Queen is of particular interest. You suggest that if the Borg Queen hadn't been present, sending one cube becomes "excuseable". Well, truth be told, every Borg vessel possess a Borg "Queen", or equivalent system also known as a Borg Vinculum. Both bring "order to chaos", essentially sorting all Borg "thoughts" and purging irrelevent ones. The only difference being the humanoid Queen is smaller and apparently possess an element of "individuality". She was constructed onboard the E-E, after the capture of Data. Building the humanoid Vinculum serves two goals: 1) limited resources on hand, building the smaller model makes sense. 2) Seduction of Data, since forcible extraction of information from him seemed extremely unlikely or impossible with their available resources.
You basicly assert that the Borg command structure is heirarchiral. Each drone is like a workstation, with the vinculum or a special drone in command. Each vinculum or special drone is connected to the Unimatrix, and likely a specific Borg Queen for the Unimatrix.

That also explains why so much damage was caused by a virus effecting the Unimatrix queen.
User avatar
YT300000
Sith'ari
Posts: 6528
Joined: 2003-05-20 12:49pm
Location: Calgary, Canada
Contact:

Post by YT300000 »

The next response will probably be in tomorrow.
Name changes are for people who wear women's clothes. - Zuul

Wow. It took me a good minute to remember I didn't have testicles. -xBlackFlash

Are you sure this isn't like that time Michael Jackson stopped by your house so he could use the bathroom? - Superman
User avatar
Jeremy
Jedi Master
Posts: 1132
Joined: 2003-04-30 06:47pm
Location: Hyrule

Post by Jeremy »

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:If she is the Borg, wouldn't her sexual encounter with Data be the biggest gangbang in starfleet history?
Perhaps they have a wierd sense of humor. You know all work and no play...
• Only the dead have seen the end of war.
• "The only really bright side to come out of all this has to be Dino-rides in Hell." ~ Ilya Muromets
Post Reply