Star Trek does BDZ?

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 09:43am

In "Broken Link" Garak says about the Defiant

We have enough firepower on this ship to turn that planet into a
smoking cinder. Personally, I think that would be a very good thing.

This sound very like

Imperial Sourcebook, p.61 wrote:The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag

In "The Die is Cast" a fleet of 20 Romulan warbirds and Cardassian Keldon Class is about to decloak and begin a massive bombardment.

LOVOK wrote:Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour, and the mantle within five.

I would think that they would know if the computer analysis exaggerated the power of their weapons.

Later we see dozens of phaserbeams hitting the planet and the effect is

Thirty percent of the planetary crust destroyed on opening volley...

I know that the effect on the planet doesn’t look right but

GARAK wrote:It's a ruse. They're using an automated transponder to send back false sensor readings.

I know that both of these episodes has been discussed before and that its seen as Garak exaggerated but if you compare the two episodes it would point that Star trek can do a BDZ.

20 ships can cause more damage then one ISD while the Defiant can almost do as much damage as one ISD.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-03 09:44am

And isn't it amazing that the visuals never seem to agree with the dialogue in the case on any level?

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 09:56am

Ghost Rider wrote:And isn't it amazing that the visuals never seem to agree with the dialogue in the case on any level?

That is the fault of the writers.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-10-03 10:11am

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And isn't it amazing that the visuals never seem to agree with the dialogue in the case on any level?
That is the fault of the writers.

Not a valid arguement in the context of suspension of disbelief.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-10-03 10:24am

What Garak probably meant was that they could kill all the founders on the surface before any Jem'Hadar ships could show up. There's a pretty big gulf between that and a BDZ.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-03 11:45am

"reduce a planet to smoking cinders" refers to the surface. We can wipe out all life on the surface of a planet and reduce everything to smoking ruins with MODERN nuclear weapons. So no, they don't BDZ, they just wipe out all life.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2004-10-03 11:48am

Fucking hell, use the goddamn search button, everything here has been said a thousand times.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 11:52am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Fucking hell, use the goddamn search button, everything here has been said a thousand times.

I have used the search button and I looked through those discussions as you would have understood if you read my original post

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 11:57am

Praxis wrote:"reduce a planet to smoking cinders" refers to the surface. We can wipe out all life on the surface of a planet and reduce everything to smoking ruins with MODERN nuclear weapons. So no, they don't BDZ, they just wipe out all life.

Star Wars Technical Journal, vol.2, p.17 wrote: These colossal, wedge-shaped behemoths, bristling with turboweapons and carrying entire TIE squadrons within them, each possess more firepower than the entire planetary forces of most worlds, and can reduce a planet surface to smoking debris in a matter of hours.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-03 12:10pm

All right...then show us up.

Prove the visuals agree with the dialogue.

This is something that Darkstar, Virus-X and awhole host of others have tried and failed.

Show the entire community wrong.

And next time use the archive board, because we've had this discussion since the beginning of the board.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-10-03 12:12pm

Gustav, you're forgetting context. Garak was clearly unhinged when he attempted to rewire the Defiant's weapons systems in order to fire without bridge control. His exchange with Worf shows this in stark detail. He wasn't thinking rationally, and his line can therefore be taken into context as hyperbole.

Furthermore, a BDZ operation is more than burning a planet to a smoking cinder. I'm sure the Defiant could wipe out all life on a planetary scale if given the opportunity, but it wouldn't be able to reduce the surface to slag.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 12:26pm

Ghost Rider wrote:All right...then show us up.
Prove the visuals agree with the dialogue.

Eh, that’s not possible. We know that the sensors are being feed false information so how should we be able to see the correct image.

But earlier we heard

LOVOK
Computer analysis indicates that the
planet's crust will be destroyed
within one hour, and the mantle within
five.

I say again, I would think that they would know the power of their own weapons? Don't you think so?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-03 12:32pm

It's amazing that you keep avoiding the real point...shove down your secular POV and go "There, this should prove me right.

Nice to see, you're not proving squat and doing what many a rabid Trekkie has done with an Episode that didn't show us even a tenth of the effects of what a planetary crust destruction will do.

So for the last time, show visual evidence...because this slowly becoming yet another case of someone using ignorant dialogue like Wide Beam Kill and not showing any observable evidence.

One makes calculations from observable effect, extraordinary effects require extraordinary evidence.

All you've provided is dialogue but not a single shred of observable evidence that somehow ups Trek Firepower by a few orders of magnitude.

So one last shot.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 12:34pm

Stofsk wrote:Gustav, you're forgetting context. Garak was clearly unhinged when he attempted to rewire the Defiant's weapons systems in order to fire without bridge control.

I grant you that.

Furthermore, a BDZ operation is more than burning a planet to a smoking cinder. I'm sure the Defiant could wipe out all life on a planetary scale if given the opportunity, but it wouldn't be able to reduce the surface to slag.

But that quote I showed you made reference of a planets surface. And wasnt that a BDZ?

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2004-10-03 12:40pm

Ghost Rider wrote:So one last shot.

So your saying that they dont know the power of their own weapons?

How can I show evidence that their weapons didnt do the damage they said they would?

Why should we doubt that everything happened as the computer sim said it would. Have you any evidence that says it didnt?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-10-03 12:44pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:So one last shot.
So your saying that they dont know the power of their own weapons?

How can I show evidence that their weapons didnt do the damage they said they would?

Why should we doubt that everything happened as the computer sim said it would. Have you any evidence that says it didnt?

No, I'm saying it's your Burden of Proof to show that all the other times they have shown weaponry doing barely above MT damage, to some escalate into a format that would do GT damage.

Without providing visual evidence we can dance all day long around the dialogue tree.

Because you can't provide such, thus showing all you have is a words of dialogue in a situation we know the Founders themselves set up both the Obsidan Order and Tal Shi'ar.

Thus visuals would agree with the dialogueand are the ultimate proof in debating a science fiction series unless otherwise stated.

Since you cannot show the visuals that agree, and cling to "They could've been faked" I retort with "He could've been LYING or exgerrating."

No visuals...I'm locking because we have done this before...I mean this was easily one of the first arguments of Trek Firepower ever used. So don't go "I did a search and nothing there."