USAF would have grounded the Red Baron

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-20 01:53pm

Linky

SCIENCE
Notebook

Monday, September 20, 2004; Page A06

'Red Baron's' Fatal Fixation

Clinicians call it "perseveration," a brain dysfunction that causes people to persist in a task even when they know rationally that the chosen strategy is doomed and may even be mortally dangerous.

A new analysis suggests that perseveration caused by an earlier head wound is what led German pilot Manfred von Richthofen, World War I's fabled "Red Baron," to chase a British pilot into enemy airspace on April 21, 1918, allowing aircraft and ground fire to cut his red Fokker triplane to ribbons and kill him with a single bullet through the chest.

"He had target fixation and a mental rigidity," said University of Missouri clinical psychologist Daniel Orme. "He flew into a shooting gallery, violating all kinds of rules of flying -- rules from the manual that he himself wrote."

In a paper published in the autumn edition of the journal Human Factors and Aerospace Safety, Orme and co-author Thomas L. Hyatt, of Cincinnati's Veterans Administration Medical Center, describe how Richthofen's behavior changed after a British bullet dug a four-inch groove in his skull during a dogfight nine months earlier.

The authors, both of whom are retired Air Force clinicians, say Richthofen clearly suffered "traumatic brain injury." He brooded, behaved boorishly in public, and pulled childish stunts completely out of character for the careful predator whose 80 kills eclipsed those of all other World War I pilots.

"He said he had headaches, got sick when he flew and suffered fatigue," Orme said in a telephone interview. "Today the Air Force would have made him 'DNIF' -- Duties Not to Include Flying."

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-09-20 05:38pm

Richtofen wasn't the only WWI ace lost through similar circumstances. Guynemer flew after being ordered not to and was lost, Voss was lost while flying with a massive hangover...

Richtofen's own writings show how much his outlook had changed, and I doubt it was entirely his injury that caused that change. He went from being a optimistic prankster to being morose, and fatalistic. WWI air combat was hellishly deadly, it's no wonder that it took it's toll even on him.

Julhelm · Post by **Julhelm** » 2004-09-20 07:12pm

Air combat today is less mano-a-mano, so I'd guess today's pilots aren't affected in the same way as a WW1 pilot would be.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-09-20 08:42pm

While we're on the subject of the Red Baron, I have a question: Why is it that just about everyone has heard of him, and most know his kill count (80), when there were at least 25 aces during WWII (all German) who exceeded his kill count, yet few people besides military and history buffs (like myself) have ever heard of any of them. I mean, almost nobody I know ever heard of Erich Hartmann before I told them, and some even thought that von Richthoven was the greatest ace of all time. I would guess that von Richthoven's moniker and his distinctive custom-painted DR-1 triplane would be a factor in his fame, but I'm not sure...

*edited for spelling*

Post by **Dalton** » 2004-09-20 08:46pm

Ma Deuce wrote:While we're on the subject of the Red Baron, I have a question: Why is it that just about everyone has heard of him, and most know his kill count (80), when there were at least 25 aces during WWII (all German) who exceeded his kill count, yet few pople besides military and history buffs (like myself) have ever heard of any of them. I mean, almost nobody I know ever heard of Erich Hartmann before I told them, and some even thought that von Richthoven was the greatest ace of all time. I would guess that von Richthoven's moniker and his distinctive custom-painted DR-1 triplane would be a factor in his fame, but I'm not sure...

One word: Snoopy.

RedX · Post by **RedX** » 2004-09-20 08:47pm

Ma Deuce wrote:While we're on the subject of the Red Baron, I have a question: Why is it that just about everyone has heard of him, and most know his kill count (80), when there were at least 25 aces during WWII (all German) who exceeded his kill count, yet few pople besides military and history buffs (like myself) have ever heard of any of them. I mean, almost nobody I know ever heard of Erich Hartmann before I told them, and some even thought that von Richthoven was the greatest ace of all time. I would guess that von Richthoven's moniker and his distinctive custom-painted DR-1 triplane would be a factor in his fame, but I'm not sure...

A bright red airplane and a title of minor nobility can go a long way together.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-09-20 08:48pm

Dalton wrote:
Ma Deuce wrote:While we're on the subject of the Red Baron, I have a question: Why is it that just about everyone has heard of him, and most know his kill count (80), when there were at least 25 aces during WWII (all German) who exceeded his kill count, yet few pople besides military and history buffs (like myself) have ever heard of any of them. I mean, almost nobody I know ever heard of Erich Hartmann before I told them, and some even thought that von Richthoven was the greatest ace of all time. I would guess that von Richthoven's moniker and his distinctive custom-painted DR-1 triplane would be a factor in his fame, but I'm not sure...
One word: Snoopy.

Snoopy's part of it, but the biggest factor is that aces in WWII were not the media darlings they were in WWI.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-09-21 06:22am

Ma Deuce wrote:While we're on the subject of the Red Baron, I have a question: Why is it that just about everyone has heard of him, and most know his kill count (80), when there were at least 25 aces during WWII (all German) who exceeded his kill count, yet few people besides military and history buffs (like myself) have ever heard of any of them. I mean, almost nobody I know ever heard of Erich Hartmann before I told them, and some even thought that von Richthoven was the greatest ace of all time. I would guess that von Richthoven's moniker and his distinctive custom-painted DR-1 triplane would be a factor in his fame, but I'm not sure...

*edited for spelling*

If we go with the list of fighter aces here 160 German/Austrian* aces, 1 Finnish ace and 1 Japanese ace exceeded Richthofen's tally of 80 "kills", thats a total of 162.

*That list counts Austrian pilots (e.g. Walter Nowotny) as Germans.

Sebastin · Post by **Sebastin** » 2004-09-21 10:19am

Minor Trivia: I served with Hauptman von Richthoven in the Bundeswehr (the grandson). He was CO of our Driving school.

(I was responsible for organizing all training courses for our unit so i had quite a lot of contact with him.)

Very cool down to earth guy. Had radios installed in all the trucks so they could play music during lessons. In winter he held sliding contests with the 7ton gl on the frozen over runway. Once borrowed our entire basic training platoon for snowman building duty, so they could play truck-bowl.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » 2004-09-21 11:07am

The Baron is famous becasue he literally wrote the book on what to do and what not to do in a dogfight... or air to air combat in general.

Yeah, there were people with more kills eventually, but we still use a lot of the tactics and rules he developed today.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-09-21 11:51am

Mayhem wrote:The Baron is famous becasue he literally wrote the book on what to do and what not to do in a dogfight... or air to air combat in general.

Yeah, there were people with more kills eventually, but we still use a lot of the tactics and rules he developed today.

Actually, Oswald Boelke wrote the book, he taught Richtofen everything he knew, and was idolised by him.

Sebastin, I sincerely doubt that was Manfred's grandson, Manfred never had any kids, so grandkids are impossible. A great-great nephew, perhaps?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2004-09-21 01:49pm

Dalton wrote:
Ma Deuce wrote:While we're on the subject of the Red Baron, I have a question: Why is it that just about everyone has heard of him, and most know his kill count (80), when there were at least 25 aces during WWII (all German) who exceeded his kill count, yet few pople besides military and history buffs (like myself) have ever heard of any of them. I mean, almost nobody I know ever heard of Erich Hartmann before I told them, and some even thought that von Richthoven was the greatest ace of all time. I would guess that von Richthoven's moniker and his distinctive custom-painted DR-1 triplane would be a factor in his fame, but I'm not sure...
One word: Snoopy.

*Falls out of chair, laughing, as "Snoopy V/s the Red Baron" plays in her mind*

~10 20 30 40 50 or more,
That bloody Red Baron was rollin up a score
80 men died trying to end the spree
Of the Bloody Red Baron of Germany~

Sebastin · Post by **Sebastin** » 2004-09-21 02:21pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Sebastin, I sincerely doubt that was Manfred's grandson, Manfred never had any kids, so grandkids are impossible. A great-great nephew, perhaps?

Possible. Word on the base back then was grandson, but you know the accuracy of such popular stories and i never really cared enough to find out. I´m positive however that there is a somewhat close family relation, i recall his name being mentioned in one of our history lessons. I´m about 80% sure he was called manfred too.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2004-09-21 05:57pm

Manfred's brother was also an ace and they served together. IIRC he survived the war.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2004-09-21 06:22pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Manfred's brother was also an ace and they served together. IIRC he survived the war.

Lothar von Richthofen, yes. He tallied up an impressive score on his own, and it's not unreasonable that the title would have passed down to him. Of course, when the Weimar Republic was formed, all noble titles were null and void for the most part-- still, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sebastin's Hauptmann von Richthofen is a descendant of that very family.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2004-09-21 07:16pm

Sebastin wrote:Possible. Word on the base back then was grandson, but you know the accuracy of such popular stories and i never really cared enough to find out. I´m positive however that there is a somewhat close family relation, i recall his name being mentioned in one of our history lessons. I´m about 80% sure he was called manfred too.

The forward in a book I have was written by Manfred von Richtofen, son of Bolko von Richtofen, Manfred the elder's youngest brother.
It makes no mention of him serving, but it does say that his father Bolko was the only member of the family to not become a "professional soldier", so perhaps it isn't too much of a stretch to infer from that that he served in the modern Luftwaffe.
That forward is dated 1998, BTW...