Interesting tidbits from TNG "Face Of The Enemy"

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-08-02 11:38pm

The Federation employs a "gravitic sensor net" along the border to detect cloaked Romulan ships; the chances of successfully evading the net are slim, even with the proper entry codes.

During the episode, the commander of the Romulan Warbird recounts a Romulan attack on a Klingon outpost. During this attack, a Klingon surprise counterattack destroyed half of the Romulan squadron before the Romulans could effectively respond. The Romulans eventually destroyed the Klingon force.

It is my contention that this as well as the Romulan Commander's plan to attack the Enterprise supports a model where equally matched TNG battles are often decided by the first strike of the battle, and that battles are typically resolved soon thereafter.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-08-03 12:02am

In the very least thats how the Romulans opperate. Big ship with cloak and massive amount of forward firepower. Makes for a wonderful first strike platform.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2004-08-03 09:53am

Alyeska wrote:In the very least thats how the Romulans opperate. Big ship with cloak and massive amount of forward firepower. Makes for a wonderful first strike platform.

It would also suggest that in a defense or large straight up fleet engagement the romulans are at a disadvantage compared to other powers like Starfleet or Klingon forces.

Romulan ships are designed as ambush predators and like real ambush predators their odds of sucess probably drop off quickly the longer the battle takes.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-03 03:20pm

Considering that in TNG, the Enterprise-D's shields couldn't withstand a single spread from it's own rear torpedo launcher, I'd expect half the fleet would easily get destroyed in the opening volley.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2004-08-03 09:05pm

Praxis wrote:Considering that in TNG, the Enterprise-D's shields couldn't withstand a single spread from it's own rear torpedo launcher, I'd expect half the fleet would easily get destroyed in the opening volley.

where did you get that from? the Ent-D has taken more damage than that and survived.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-03 09:18pm

Death from the Sea wrote:
Praxis wrote:Considering that in TNG, the Enterprise-D's shields couldn't withstand a single spread from it's own rear torpedo launcher, I'd expect half the fleet would easily get destroyed in the opening volley.
where did you get that from? the Ent-D has taken more damage than that and survived.

The last few months I've been taking notes on each Star Trek episode I've watched.

I intend to post those notes soon.

In the meantime, I'll fish out this note. In "The Nth Degree", a probe was undergoing an energy buildup. When it was reported at 3.2 terawatts, Worf reported that the ship was now in danger (meaning the Enterprise's shields cannot withstand 3.2 terawatts, heh). They phasered the probe, but it withstood it. Picard wanted to fire a full photon spread, but it was reported that with the current distance of the probe (really close, it was chasing them, I believe it was within a kilometer at the time but I'm not sure), the detonation of the photon spread would overwhelm the shields and likely destroy the Enterprise.

Barclay had just been turned into a supergenius, so he used the warp *technobabble* to boost the shields by 300%. The Enterprise fired about 4 torpedoes, destroyed the probe, and the shields barely held (at 300%!).

Therefore, I state that the Enterprise-D cannot withstand a full spread of torpedoes from their own rear torpedo launcher.

Additionally, in Q-Who, it was stated that a single photon torpedo detonating within one kilometer of the Enterprise while its shields were down would destroy the ship.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-08-03 09:44pm

And yet, the Enterprise threw multiple torpedos at the Borg cube in BOBW at semi-close range.

Could it be that the aft shields really are significantly weaker, as stated by Ro Laren in "Preemptive Strike"?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-03 09:55pm

Uraniun235 wrote:And yet, the Enterprise threw multiple torpedos at the Borg cube in BOBW at semi-close range.

Could it be that the aft shields really are significantly weaker, as stated by Ro Laren in "Preemptive Strike"?

I think it's a symptom of the GCS Mk 1's "Jack of all trades, master of none" design philosophy. In the series the E-D is supposed to cover a wide range of mission roles. BOBW in my opinion shows us an E-D that had ample time to prepare for battle. They had intel that the Borg were coming, so they took time out to prepare their ship for battle. This isn't inconceivable, when you notice how much firepower the E-D releases when prepared for battle (multiple phaser strikes, multiple photon launches in BOBW, with the Cube in apparent "close proximity"), compared to all the other times when she hasn't had time to prepare ("Rascals" features prominently in this point; two Klingon BoPs decloak and manage to disable the E-D - with it's arsenal, it SHOULD be able to destroy at least one of them, but since it wasn't expecting a battle it couldn't prepare for it).

So Ro Laren's point may reflect this design philosophy. A point that was in all likelihood corrected with the War-GCS upgrade (when Starfleet probably figured "We need a frontline battleship, and this design is the best bet for that.").

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-03 10:11pm

Uraniun235 wrote:And yet, the Enterprise threw multiple torpedos at the Borg cube in BOBW at semi-close range.

Could it be that the aft shields really are significantly weaker, as stated by Ro Laren in "Preemptive Strike"?

Q-Who was actually just before BOBW, the introduction of the Borg.
It was stated that the single torpedo couldn't be fired at the Borg with shields DOWN at close range, but they did fire several torps at the Cube while shields were up.

I think that the Enterprise's hull is rather weak (not multi-megaton withstanding armor as often claimed), but the shields are strong.

Then again that "torp spread at close range will overwhelm the shields!" sort of goes against that.

I'd agree with Stofsk's post.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-08-03 10:27pm

Praxis wrote: In the meantime, I'll fish out this note. In "The Nth Degree", a probe was undergoing an energy buildup. When it was reported at 3.2 terawatts, Worf reported that the ship was now in danger (meaning the Enterprise's shields cannot withstand 3.2 terawatts, heh).

Wrong. The INITIAL energy reading on the probe when it was at a great distance from the E-D was 3.2 Terrawatts AND INCREASING. That wasn't even noted as a threat to the ship. Riker then whined that a torpedo explosion this close to the ship COULD cripple them. Personaly I think thats complete BS given that we see many Starfleet ships (often smaller then a Galaxy) are perfectly able to withstand multiple torpedo impacts. FFS, the E-D herself took many hits to her bare hull in Generations without getting blown away. Riker is simply overstating the danage.

They phasered the probe, but it withstood it. Picard wanted to fire a full photon spread, but it was reported that with the current distance of the probe (really close, it was chasing them, I believe it was within a kilometer at the time but I'm not sure), the detonation of the photon spread would overwhelm the shields and likely destroy the Enterprise.

Nope. Riker said:

RIKER
We can't use photon torpedoes.
An explosion this close to the
ship could cripple us.

COULD that is. For Gods sake, even a small Jem'Hadar bug can withstand at least TWO Starfleet photons from a Starship! The idea that a Galaxy can't is just crazy. And For the record the E-D fired three at the probe.

I'm inclined to simply say Riker was grossly overstating a possible threat.

Barclay had just been turned into a supergenius, so he used the warp *technobabble* to boost the shields by 300%. The Enterprise fired about 4 torpedoes, destroyed the probe, and the shields barely held (at 300%!).

Barely held? WHat are you talking about? The ship shuddered from the explosion. No statement was said about shield failure or loss.

Therefore, I state that the Enterprise-D cannot withstand a full spread of torpedoes from their own rear torpedo launcher.

And I would state that given how the E-D has fired and detonated torpedoes at similarly close ranges before and not so much as been scratched, this is wrong. Hell look at GEnerations. The E-D fires a full torpedo spread at the BOP at a range just about the same as the probe, WITHOUT shields and heavily damaged, they didn't even get sunburn from it.

The whole thing was just a stupid bit of writing so Barcly could step in and save the day.

Additionally, in Q-Who, it was stated that a single photon torpedo detonating within one kilometer of the Enterprise while its shields were down would destroy the ship.

COULD destroy the ship. And I point out that in Generations the E-D took hits to its bear hull and surived handily. And I will point out in Equinox that Voyager and Equinox survived direct hull torpedo impacts (though I concead that is not the best indicator of anything). In 'The Survivors', with its shields down and hull damage at point blank Range, Riker lets the alien ship have everything at maximum firepower, nope no damage to the ship there....

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-04 12:24am

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Praxis wrote: In the meantime, I'll fish out this note. In "The Nth Degree", a probe was undergoing an energy buildup. When it was reported at 3.2 terawatts, Worf reported that the ship was now in danger (meaning the Enterprise's shields cannot withstand 3.2 terawatts, heh).

Wrong. The INITIAL energy reading on the probe when it was at a great distance from the E-D was 3.2 Terrawatts AND INCREASING. That wasn't even noted as a threat to the ship. Riker then whined that a torpedo explosion this close to the ship COULD cripple them. Personaly I think thats complete BS given that we see many Starfleet ships (often smaller then a Galaxy) are perfectly able to withstand multiple torpedo impacts. FFS, the E-D herself took many hits to her bare hull in Generations without getting blown away. Riker is simply overstating the danage.

You're right that Worf said it was a danger after it had increased a bit. However, when it was at 3.2 terrawatts someone (I believe Tasha Yar) recommended that they move away from it immediately. A few moments later Worf stated, "The ship is now in danger".

It still means that 3.2 terawatts was enough to warrant the ship moving away.

You may claim Riker was overstating this, but obviously, he must have been right, since Picard wasn't willing to take the chance at firing until Barclay tripled the shields. So it obviously wasn't worth the risk, since Picard refused to fire while the shields were at 100% due to Riker's comment.
If Riker was exagurating, Data would have spoke up with a, "Sir, I believe we can withstand the torpedo spread," or something like that.

Check out Mike's analysis of that portion of the episode. http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Databas ... h%20Degree

Nope. Riker said:

RIKER
We can't use photon torpedoes.
An explosion this close to the
ship could cripple us.

See above.

COULD that is. For Gods sake, even a small Jem'Hadar bug can withstand at least TWO Starfleet photons from a Starship! The idea that a Galaxy can't is just crazy. And For the record the E-D fired three at the probe.

I'm inclined to simply say Riker was grossly overstating a possible threat.

Nope, as I pointed out above, Picard obviously felt the same, as he wouldn't fire until the shields were tripled, and BARCLAY, who was ultra-super-duper-intelligence at the moment, also agreed as he said something on the line of, "I have boosted the shield strength, you can now fire the torpedoes," or something like that that implied the Enterprise would not have survived otherwise.

Barely held? WHat are you talking about? The ship shuddered from the explosion. No statement was said about shield failure or loss.

The ship shuddered from the explosion, and Barclay's statement implied that the shields would not otherwise have withstood it.

Therefore, I state that the Enterprise-D cannot withstand a full spread of torpedoes from their own rear torpedo launcher.

And I would state that given how the E-D has fired and detonated torpedoes at similarly close ranges before and not so much as been scratched, this is wrong. Hell look at GEnerations. The E-D fires a full torpedo spread at the BOP at a range just about the same as the probe, WITHOUT shields and heavily damaged, they didn't even get sunburn from it.

The whole thing was just a stupid bit of writing so Barcly could step in and save the day.

I agree that it was stupid writing, however I have noticed in several instances, in TNG their shields are FAR WEAKER than in both Deep Space Nine and the later movies.

Either
1) It's a writing screwup, and the Q-Who and Nth Degree points are to be dismissed as a contradiction
2) Federation shields were vastly improved since then
3) Federation shields were 'optimized' to withstand weapons hits better from their own weapons, since we see in other episodes that they can't stand worth beans against physical impacts.

COULD destroy the ship. And I point out that in Generations the E-D took hits to its bear hull and surived handily. And I will point out in Equinox that Voyager and Equinox survived direct hull torpedo impacts (though I concead that is not the best indicator of anything). In 'The Survivors', with its shields down and hull damage at point blank Range, Riker lets the alien ship have everything at maximum firepower, nope no damage to the ship there....

Yes, I realize that all the ST movies (1 to 10), Deep Space Nine, and Voyager all show ships taking dozens of torpedo strikes with nothing but little burn marks. Even the occasional TNG episodes.

However, I've noticed in the earlier TNG episodes (with Gene Roddenbery) and TOS it takes FAR less weapons hits to destroy a ship, such as in TOS when the Enterprise destroys another constitution in one phaser strike, or in TNG where several episodes imply that their own photons would seriously damage Fed ships.

The later TNG episodes change this, as do all DS9 episodes, Voyager episodes, and the movies. But several earlier TNG and TOS episodes imply that Federation ships have astoundingly weak hulls.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-08-04 12:40am

Praxis wrote:Q-Who was actually just before BOBW, the introduction of the Borg.
It was stated that the single torpedo couldn't be fired at the Borg with shields DOWN at close range, but they did fire several torps at the Cube while shields were up.

Ah, except that in BOBW part 2, Riker ordered phasers and photorps fired at the Cube after their shields had collapsed from the Borg tractor beam.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-04 12:54am

Uraniun235 wrote:
Praxis wrote:Q-Who was actually just before BOBW, the introduction of the Borg.
It was stated that the single torpedo couldn't be fired at the Borg with shields DOWN at close range, but they did fire several torps at the Cube while shields were up.
Ah, except that in BOBW part 2, Riker ordered phasers and photorps fired at the Cube after their shields had collapsed from the Borg tractor beam.

As I said, Star Trek likes to contradict itself...LOL
Half the episodes make them able to withstand dozens of torp hits, and the other half make them pathetic. What can I say? Thats what they get for having different writers do each story- contradictions.

(the below is a funny example, that has nothing to do with torpedoes)
Probably the worst contradiction I've seen was in "Hollow Pursuits". It doesn't have to do with photon torps, but its still funny. The contradiction occurs in the same episode.
They have a floating cart carrying containers that have in them, among other things, a little bit of envidium (sp?). The cart starts malfunctioning, then falls, and breaks one of the containers. The envidium gets out, but since it is undetectable to sensors, no one knows. Then it starts causing system failures across the ship.

Investigating the cart failure, Barclay says that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it shouldn't be malfunctioning, yet it is. Several incidents like this occur. Then they figure out its the envidium.
Now here's the confusing part. The envidium caused the malfunctions in the warp core, replicator, cart, etc, etc, correct?
But it was the cart falling down that RELEASED the envidium.
So the cart's failure was caused by the envidium, but the envidium's spread was caused by the cart failure.
Eh?
A bit of a paradox, no?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-08-05 08:00pm

Half the episodes make them able to withstand dozens of torp hits, and the other half make them pathetic. What can I say? Thats what they get for having different writers do each story- contradictions.

No, that's what they get for not having someone to check stories against continuity, or worse, outright ignoring the guy that checks against continuity. (as this was supposedly one of the roles of the 'Technical Advisor' on TNG, and one of them reported that they were ignored more than half the time!)

Babylon 5 actually had different writers for various episodes in the first two seasons, yet they managed to preserve continuity fairly well.

Having different writers is not a fault in and of itself (in fact, without such a system we would not have had episodes such as 'The Trouble With Tribbles'), but it requires a degree of care which some on the production staff clearly weren't willing to invest.

I'd also remind you that the incidents in which the Enterprise was supposedly in danger from near-proximity photon blasts involved the blast occurring in the rear quarter of the ship; the same rear quarter that Ro Laren claimed had weaker shields.

So the cart's failure was caused by the envidium, but the envidium's spread was caused by the cart failure.

I was under the impression that the cart failed, Barclay fixed it, and then it continued to fail after he had supposedly fixed it.

You're right that Worf said it was a danger after it had increased a bit. However, when it was at 3.2 terrawatts someone (I believe Tasha Yar)

Hollow Pursuits was not a Season 1 episode, and Tasha was only in Season 1.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-08-05 08:57pm

Possible clear up to Nth degree

We know the Probe's reprogramming 'light flash' fucked a shuttle over royally.

It's possible the energy the Probe was putting out to keep up with/catch the enterprise was affecting the shields and they never said it.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-06 01:09am

Solauren wrote:Possible clear up to Nth degree

We know the Probe's reprogramming 'light flash' fucked a shuttle over royally.

It's possible the energy the Probe was putting out to keep up with/catch the enterprise was affecting the shields and they never said it.

True, the probe WAS building up an energy field. It warranted "moving the ship away" when it hit 3.2 terawatts, and after a short buildup at the same rate (couldn't have been more than 10 terawatts, and 1 terawatt is all the Enterprise can produce) it was stated that the ship was in danger.

It may have partially drained the shields. HOWEVER, it was stated that it could DESTROY the ship- even with the shields weakened, we'd expect the Enterprise's hull to withstand 4 proximity torpedo detonations...right?

Perhaps that's what it is. The Enterprise has good shields, but very weak hull, so torpedo detonations when the shields are weakened or down (like in Q Who) can destroy the ship, and why a collapsing cave in nearly zero gravity can destroy the ship (ref: Pegasus). When war loomed, they made stronger hull armor, which is why the Enterprise survived multiple torpedo hits in Generations.
Just my theory.

Prozac the Robert · Post by **Prozac the Robert** » 2004-08-07 08:33pm

It's a very long time since I saw that episode, and I really can't remembeber this sequence at all, so can someone clarify this watts business for me?

Was that 3.2 terrawatts being constantly applied to the enterprises shields, or was the probe storing up 3.2 terrajoules per second which it might then release? Or something else?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-07 10:03pm

Not specified. They just said that it was building up energy and was at 3.2 terrawatts. Whether this was being constantly applied against the enterprise or just built up in the probe we do not know.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-08-08 11:00am

Praxis wrote:Not specified. They just said that it was building up energy and was at 3.2 terrawatts. Whether this was being constantly applied against the enterprise or just built up in the probe we do not know.

Data says that an energy field is forming AROUND the probe with 3.2 Terawatts output and increasing.

Its clear however that they didn't relish the thought of the probe exploding near them for whatever reason. Rikers insane and incorrect stupidity about the mortal danger of torpedoes aside, the fact that they went right to full phasers (which are in the same ballpark for output as phasers) speaks that they simply wanted to NDF the probe, not blow it up.

We don't know the rate at which the probe was powering up. The energy field started at 3.2 Terawatts. Then we had the torpedo discussion. Then they fired the phasers, though the probe just ignored them. Data comments that the energy buildup is reaching dangerous levels. Then they maxed out the phaser power and again it ignored them. Picard ordered warp two and it chased them into warp. By this point the output was sufficent to begin overloading the ships shields, they would fail in 47 seconds.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-08-08 11:42am

Check out Mike Wong's analysis. It answers some of your points.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Databas ... h%20Degree

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2004-08-13 04:00am

The strength of shields against torpedos is so inconsistent it isn't even worth analyzing. In TOS "The Changeling", the E-Nil's shields withstood several impacts from Nomad that each had the firepower of 90 photon torpedos. WTF?!

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-08-13 11:54pm

Eframepilot wrote:The strength of shields against torpedos is so inconsistent it isn't even worth analyzing. In TOS "The Changeling", the E-Nil's shields withstood several impacts from Nomad that each had the firepower of 90 photon torpedos. WTF?!

Maybe spock meant "photon Torpedoes" as some kind of pornographic slang?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-08-14 06:55am

Maybe spock meant "photon Torpedoes" as some kind of pornographic slang?

Maybe the fact that poor continuity has always been a problem with Star Trek series, has more to do with this than "slang" or "mis-calculation".

(Then there´s my personal pet theory: TNG and every other spinoff has got nothing to do with the original series, they´re all contained in a separate universe where a communist, de-militarized Federation exist, along with several "brain-bugged" alien concepts.)