The life and death of a Borg drone

[Gandalf]

Upper limit on human aging is ~180 years. After that you run out of telomeres, and even if you could replace them the DNA is damaged by then so you'd end up in bad shape

In BoBW it was mentioned that Picard's DNA was being re-written. It's possible (Though pure speculation) that this could help get a few more decades out of him.

[seanrobertson]

I don't know. I haven't watched very much Voyager, but "Q Who?" definitely gave me the impression that the Borg made most of their drones by cloning the babies themselves and then giving them a hook up to the Collective Online. Especially with Q himself going on about how drones are genderless and how they alone care about technology, not people. Of course, whether this is consistant with Voyager I highly doubt, given what you've said.

Well, he did say, "...not a he, not a she," sure enough.

Of course, a few seconds later, Q added, "HE might try to take over your ship. I wouldn’t let HIM."

By genderless, I think he was talking about the Borg in their collective state. The collective certainly isn't a he or she

And as far as the bit about assimilating technology vs. lifeforms, technology and lifeforms, etc., that’s actually not an inconsistency. Let me ask this: have you ever seen "The Three Kings"? You know, with Ice T, Marky Mark and George Clooney? (I think it's a good movie. See it if you haven't!)

Okay: sometime after the exploding cow scene, Clooney asks his men, "What is most important in life?"

Do you remember the answer?

It was "necessity". There were times the Borg were only interested in technology or in life forms. Other times, they wanted both. Why? Probably because they were doing what was most necessary to further their goals. Have a drone shortage? Easy: go assimilate a bunch of people. Need info on the Omega particle? Assimilate species which have seen it firsthand. Cube ain't packing the same punch it used to? Again, easy: go assimilate species who have advanced weapons technology. Repeat until you’ve reached "perfection."

All that said, rationalizing this shit depends on what you consider to be canon. If one was out to abide strictly by Roddenberry canon, and late TNG, DS9 and VGR were rendered null and void, I think your ideas would have a lot of merit. (Was Gene around when "I,Borg" aired?)

However, that "Drone" business doesn't contradict them producing clones themselves, after all, she said that it's similar to what they use.

So there's no evidence for it, but it's not impossible. I agree, but that's one step away from an appeal to ignorance. Until we know they clone drones, it's best to assume they just assimilate.

Just that the process may be a bit different. Seven is one anal retentive character, it would be just like her to comment that they don't exactly reproduce like that, even if they used a similar process.

Perhaps. More generally, I thought she meant the Borg didn't grow new drones in tubes. I'd cite the script if I could, but the only place I know to find anything like that, "Delta Blues," seems to be down

Besides, Q took them to the Delta Quadrant, didn't he? Riker himself commented that the babies in the boxes were human, where exactly would they find human babies hundreds of thousands of lightyears from Earth if they didn't make them themselves from aquired genetic material they brought back from the Alpha Quadrant? (I discount the possibility that they grabbed the babies in the Alpha quadrant and brought them back, they were far too young)

I was wrong about the "human" bit. Riker actually doesn't say that in the script:

From the looks of it the Borg are
born as biological life form.
Almost immediately after birth
they begin getting artificial
implants. They have apparently
developed the technology to link
artificial intelligence directly
into a humanoid brain. Pretty
astounding. Something else -- I
haven't seen any females.

The aired version is a bit different. After "...a humanoid brain," he simply remarks, "Astounding." He doesn't add anything about not seeing girls.

Anyway, on the subject of Queens at the bottom of your post, if they had several to lots of Queens running around from the time of their assimilation, wouldn't they all look different? If they were just grabbing up bunches of females from that species and making them into Queens, you'd expect that they'd look different, since they started out as different individuals. Yet every Borg Queen we've ever seen has been completely identical; in voice, body, and face. This would indicate that they are mass produced, rather than assimilated.

They haven't all been completely identical; the two actresses who portrayed the Queen weren't twins There were subtle differences in their voices, appearance, etc.

However:

You're onto something strong here. We know the Alice Krige Queen died in "First Contact," yet we see Krige again in "Endgame." That very well could mean the Queen, or parts of her, are cloned. (The Susanna Thompson Queen might've died and been replaced as well, but there's no way to confirm that.)

As for Seven being "groomed" for the position of Borg Queen, how is that possible? *snip*

I honestly don't know. That's just something I remember hearing from someone that worked on VGR. In the event Queens weren't mass-produced, though, I wanted to know how they might otherwise come to be. The grooming idea does have its fair share of problems, as you noted

[seanrobertson]

I always took the babies in "Q Who" to mean that these were just assimilated children. Then they were placed in maturtaion chambers until they were old enough to become fully active drones.

The Borg also artificialy grow drones in vats according to "Collective" and "Drone".

Huh? No such thing is established in "Collective." And we're expressly told that the manner in which One comes about in "Drone" is unique.

[Gil Hamilton]

Well, he did say, "...not a he, not a she," sure enough.

Of course, a few seconds later, Q added, "HE might try to take over your ship. I wouldn’t let HIM."

By genderless, I think he was talking about the Borg in their collective state. The collective certainly isn't a he or she

Well, he was refering to the drone when he said "...not a he, not a she". It wouldn't make sense for him to be speaking about the collective as a whole, after all, they wouldn't know what he was talking about yet.

Besides, English doesn't have a pronoun for an asexual being. "It" doesn't precisely work grammatically, since the pronoun is refering to an "individual".

And as far as the bit about assimilating technology vs. lifeforms, technology and lifeforms, etc., that’s actually not an inconsistency. Let me ask this: have you ever seen "The Three Kings"? You know, with Ice T, Marky Mark and George Clooney? (I think it's a good movie. See it if you haven't!) *snipachusetts*

I have seen "The Three Kings".

Anyway, that's not what Q was going on about. He very distinctly said that the Borg care nothing about people, that they were just after the ship so they could pick it over like a high school electronics club hitting a Radio Shack. I suppose that's in contradiction with much of the rest of StarTrek, though, but why would Q lie? Lying about the nature of the Borg would be contrary to the reason he dragged them out to the Delta Quadrant to make the introduction, and besides, Guinan knows all about the Borg too. He couldn't get away with bullshitting them in that case, because Guinan would sell his ass out in a heartbeat (they don't precisely like each other).

So there's no evidence for it, but it's not impossible. I agree, but that's one step away from an appeal to ignorance. Until we know they clone drones, it's best to assume they just assimilate.

I suppose so, but that's really not the impression I got from "Q Who?". They were implying very heavily there that the Borg were asexual techno-nerds who grew kids in maturation chambers. Riker even commented that he didn't see a female anywhere on the cube while he was there.

Perhaps. More generally, I thought she meant the Borg didn't grow new drones in tubes. I'd cite the script if I could, but the only place I know to find anything like that, "Delta Blues," seems to be down

Well, if she thought a fetus growing in an incubator was very similar but not exactly how the Borg do it, that's kind of alot different than assimilating babies and adolescents, and later putting them in boxes to grow them up. The two aren't similar at all.

Besides, Q took them to the Delta Quadrant, didn't he? Riker himself commented that the babies in the boxes were human, where exactly would they find human babies hundreds of thousands of lightyears from Earth if they didn't make them themselves from aquired genetic material they brought back from the Alpha Quadrant? (I discount the possibility that they grabbed the babies in the Alpha quadrant and brought them back, they were far too young)

I was wrong about the "human" bit. Riker actually doesn't say that in the script:

From the looks of it the Borg are
born as biological life form.
Almost immediately after birth
they begin getting artificial
implants. They have apparently
developed the technology to link
artificial intelligence directly
into a humanoid brain. Pretty
astounding. Something else -- I
haven't seen any females.

The aired version is a bit different. After "...a humanoid brain," he simply remarks, "Astounding." He doesn't add anything about not seeing girls.

I read the same script. Whoops. I guess they were generic startrek humanoids then. OK, point withdrawn.

They haven't all been completely identical; the two actresses who portrayed the Queen weren't twins There were subtle differences in their voices, appearance, etc.

However:

You're onto something strong here. We know the Alice Krige Queen died in "First Contact," yet we see Krige again in "Endgame." That very well could mean the Queen, or parts of her, are cloned. (The Susanna Thompson Queen might've died and been replaced as well, but there's no way to confirm that.)

I didn't know there were two different actresses. I thought all of them were played by Alice Krige. Shows that I haven't watched very much Voyager.

I honestly don't know. That's just something I remember hearing from someone that worked on VGR. In the event Queens weren't mass-produced, though, I wanted to know how they might otherwise come to be. The grooming idea does have its fair share of problems, as you noted

Why a collective mind would have a Queen at all is a bigger question. After all, there is only one of it. Specialized drones are a good idea, just like specialized cells in the body are, but it doesn't need leadership.

I still think that Queens are mass produced, rather than being assimilated from normal individuals and made into queens, though. It doesn't make very much sense otherwise, since any drone could be hooked up with hard/software that makes it act like an individual and used as a representative for the Borg, so we wouldn't see a bunch of Alice Kirge's. They did it with Picard, after all.

[seanrobertson]

EDIT: tried to clarify a couple of things, fixed a typo and cut some fat.

Well, he was refering to the drone when he said "...not a he, not a she". It wouldn't make sense for him to be speaking about the collective as a whole, after all, they wouldn't know what he was talking about yet.

Besides, English doesn't have a pronoun for an asexual being. "It" doesn't precisely work grammatically, since the pronoun is refering to an "individual".

Both are very good points.

When I responded to your post, the only way I thought to rationalize Q's teasing commentary and what we later learn about the Borg was to guess he referred to the Collective's asexuality.

But I remembered something else. When people first noted Q's statement at the BBS, I had a somewhat different rationalization.

In short, while the drone is technically a "he," his personaly identity and sexuality are effectively stripped because they serve no purpose.

Put another way, the things that differentiate sexes, that make us men or women, are a non-issue for Borg drones. In a functional sense the drone certainly doesn't do "what men do." In a sense, then, calling the drone "he" would be inaccurate and misleading.

We could also just say that drone was a hermaphrodite or had his parts cut off, one *shrugs* But I like the other idea better. I just wish I could state it such that it doesn't sound so circular

In any case, it really doesn't matter. After "Q Who?" we see male and female drones. We can pretend Q wasn't speaking entirely literally, or we can step out of SoD and say it's just the writers' fuck-up. Either works for me right now

I have seen "The Three Kings".

Excellent!

Anyway, that's not what Q was going on about. He very distinctly said that the Borg care nothing about people, that they were just after the ship so they could pick it over like a high school electronics club hitting a Radio Shack. I suppose that's in contradiction with much of the rest of StarTrek, though, but why would Q lie?

I agree. Circa "Q Who?" the writers probably were under the impression that Borg were just technology scavengers.

What I said was a way to rationalize his comments with everything else we know. And really, it fits well enough. When the Borg ran across E-D at J-25, perhaps the cube didn't need drones. All that interested them was the ship's tech; and only after the ship proved itself worthy of assimilation might the species which created/operated it be of some value in the Collective's eyes.

On that note, even throughout the wildly inconsistent VGR, the Borg usually did consider assimilation of technology the highest priority. It seemed that, oftentimes, the species itself only garnered their interest when it offered lots of resistance and/or was very technically advanced. Primitive cultures were largely left alone, with the notable exception of the few whose mythologies afforded insight to the Omega particle.

Lying about the nature of the Borg would be contrary to the reason he dragged them out to the Delta Quadrant to make the introduction, and besides, Guinan knows all about the Borg too. He couldn't get away with bullshitting them in that case, because Guinan would sell his ass out in a heartbeat (they don't precisely like each other).

Certainly, but it needn't be a lie. At that point in time, it might've very much been the case that the Borg were interested solely in the E-D herself. Things changed later for several reasons, not the least of which could've been the E-D's fast Q-assisted escape from the cube's grasp.

Well, if she thought a fetus growing in an incubator was very similar but not exactly how the Borg do it, that's kind of alot different than assimilating babies and adolescents, and later putting them in boxes to grow them up. The two aren't similar at all.

I’m confused here: when did Seven say the manner in which One was grown was similar to anything?

I must've been unclear on that count. Seven said the thing holding One was similar to a maturation chamber, yes.

The kicker: this was stated before she actually knew what was in the thing. Only after opening a tiny viewport, actually seeing the fetus inside it did she comment, "The Borg do not reproduce in this manner."

I read the same script. Whoops. I guess they were generic startrek humanoids then. OK, point withdrawn.

I lose the 229 year-old knight; you sacrifice your Human pawn

I didn't know there were two different actresses. I thought all of them were played by Alice Krige. Shows that I haven't watched very much Voyager.

*grumbles*
Lucky bastard...

Why a collective mind would have a Queen at all is a bigger question. After all, there is only one of it. Specialized drones are a good idea, just like specialized cells in the body are, but it doesn't need leadership.

I still think that Queens are mass produced, rather than being assimilated from normal individuals and made into queens, though. It doesn't make very much sense otherwise, since any drone could be hooked up with hard/software that makes it act like an individual and used as a representative for the Borg, so we wouldn't see a bunch of Alice Kirge's. They did it with Picard, after all.

I’m with you 100% on this count. And the question of why they need a Queen is a biggie. I've assumed that, since she claims to bring "order to chaos," she's not so much a leader as she helps process all the drones' voices into a solitary, collective "we are."

[Solauren]

I like to think the Borg only live 30 - 40 years post assimilation.

It would explain why they assimilate. The REAL reason.

"we are perfect, be we age way to quickly"

[His Divine Shadow]

It seems just as likely that the difficulty of the body coping with the foreign implants would shorten the life instead of prolong it.

Wasn't 7of9's skin dependant on constant regeneration from subdermal implants so it wouldn't die or something?

[Robert Walper]

According to Janeway, Borg nanoprobes had multiple uses that would make the effort to steal them (at the hands of some Ferengi in the Alpha quadrant) very worthwhile. One of the mentioned uses is extended lifespan, therefore I'd think it's a safe bet Borg drones have a fairly long life cycle in comparison to non Borg.

[Xon]

i would say yes they would die, but being borg would probably prolong there life to 300 years or something. Simple were and tare.

Upper limit on human aging is ~180 years. After that you run out of telomeres, and even if you could replace them the DNA is damaged by then so you'd end up in bad shape

There is a form of cloning which appear to reset the telomeres' lengths(Not to sure if it was disproven to effectively have reset or just appear to). Tacking on some nano-tech machinary which tampered with the telomeres evey x times cell division happened, and you dont have to worry about the telomeres any more.