VYGR: The big-headed linguistic specialist aliens

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-07-30 02:06pm

Last night's episode of Voyager was about one of the survivors of a Borg invasion that wiped out his races' homeworld. He was this alien with a large head and a knack for learning languages. He tricked the crew into thinking that SF had sent them a special super-fast ship to get the crew back to the AQ. His entire motivation was to get revenge on Janeway and her crew for aiding the Borg against S8472.

The thing is, his race's technology seemed far in advance to that of the Federations'. The Federation has been handing the Borg their asses for years. Of course he did say that it was a fleet of "hundreds of cubes" that invaded his homeworld, but for crying out loud! I would think that they could have reproduced the virus from the Hue episode, or something else.

It just struck me as odd that a race more advanced technologically than the Federation was crushed utterly by the Borg, who, from what I understand, by the time period of Voyager were completely neutered.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-07-30 02:17pm

just another example of B&B idiocy to chalk up on the board.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-07-30 02:46pm

These men, Berman and Braga, they're very frightening.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-30 03:01pm

While they had superior FTL technology, to my knowledge there is no evidence that this superiority extended to any other fields.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2004-07-30 03:13pm

The answer I would wager, is in the "hundreds of cubes".
Or even a dozen or so cubes which is the max we see on screen I believe.
Even useless halfwits like the Borg would be able to take the Federation with multiple cubes, but unlike with President Dugan.. er.. big head's race, their Earth invasion policy is "Let's send one single cube every 10 years then wonder why we lost".

That's one of the ruts Star Trek has been in for a long time, they can't think of how to beat a good enemy, so the writers just pit the Federation against an assortment of tactically inept morons.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-07-30 03:53pm

Howedar wrote:While they had superior FTL technology, to my knowledge there is no evidence that this superiority extended to any other fields.

Do not forget the particle manipulation technology that the Big-Head used to disguise the bridge of the Dauntless as a Federation ship. He just threw out some techno-babble and then said basically that it was beyond their feeble minds to grasp. Though it seemed kind of like a hologram to me, the crew of Voyager didn't even notice and they were looking for anomalies. When they did figure something was up, it was in the engine room behind a wall.

Plus, we're talking about an entire race that seems to have an innate ability to recognize patterns. He reconstructed English after hearing a few sentences Neelix spoke. Speaking tactically, this should give them an amazing advantage. Think of their computer progamming capabilities too. Which is why I brought up the Hue-virus that the Feddies wanted to use against the Borg.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2004-07-30 03:55pm

Cao Cao wrote:The answer I would wager, is in the "hundreds of cubes".
Or even a dozen or so cubes which is the max we see on screen I believe.
Even useless halfwits like the Borg would be able to take the Federation with multiple cubes, but unlike with President Dugan.. er.. big head's race, their Earth invasion policy is "Let's send one single cube every 10 years then wonder why we lost".

That's one of the ruts Star Trek has been in for a long time, they can't think of how to beat a good enemy, so the writers just pit the Federation against an assortment of tactically inept morons.

Yeah, I think it was probably the hundreds of cubes issue. That's another thing that bothers me, the B&B Borg don't seem terribly expansionistic, though I would think they could steam-roll over the entire DQ if they felt like it. The Kazon certainly couldn't do anything to stop them.

In fact, the Borg just strike me as sitting there, occasionally sending out a cube whenever they feel like it. The crushing of the Big-Heads just seem weird.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2004-07-30 05:02pm

B&B Borg are simply all over the place.
They don't appear to expand yet pick on big head's race and those people in "Dark Frontier" part II, send out solitary cubes to Earth, don't invade Earth with massive forces despite having a transwarp opening right next to it snd claim to not want the Kazon despite the Kazon not being THAT much worse than the Klingons who they do assimilate.

I guess the reason for all of this apart from bad writing is the Borg decay theory and the fact that 8472 kicked their butts and the Hirogen and Voth could stand up to them.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-30 05:39pm

Cao Cao wrote:The answer I would wager, is in the "hundreds of cubes".
Or even a dozen or so cubes which is the max we see on screen I believe.
Even useless halfwits like the Borg would be able to take the Federation with multiple cubes, but unlike with President Dugan.. er.. big head's race, their Earth invasion policy is "Let's send one single cube every 10 years then wonder why we lost".

That's one of the ruts Star Trek has been in for a long time, they can't think of how to beat a good enemy, so the writers just pit the Federation against an assortment of tactically inept morons.

Actually the only reason why the Borg were defeated both times they invaded was because of Picard. One cube is more than enough to take down the Federation.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2004-07-30 05:43pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Actually the only reason why the Borg were defeated both times they invaded was because of Picard. One cube is more than enough to take down the Federation.

The first time maybe, but not the second. They were blasting that cube to scrap metal even before Picard showed up.
In any case, it was just common sense to send more than one cube the second time. Even if the 1st was a fluke. Just be safe and send a fleet. Send 2 even. Especially given the mentioned examples, where they send dozens, if not "hundreds" (if you believe big head) to worlds that they want.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-07-30 07:34pm

Cao Cao wrote:B&B Borg are simply all over the place.
They don't appear to expand yet pick on big head's race and those people in "Dark Frontier" part II, send out solitary cubes to Earth, don't invade Earth with massive forces despite having a transwarp opening right next to it snd claim to not want the Kazon despite the Kazon not being THAT much worse than the Klingons who they do assimilate.

I guess the reason for all of this apart from bad writing is the Borg decay theory and the fact that 8472 kicked their butts and the Hirogen and Voth could stand up to them.

What is the Borg decay theory?

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2004-07-30 07:45pm

It's something speculated about how the Borg might have assimilated too many drones, leading to slowness in commands reaching the entire collective, lack of any strategic initiative, etc. Sort of like installing too many programs on Windows...
At least, that's my simplistic understanding of what I've heard here and there, I might be wrong.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-07-30 07:59pm

It just struck me as odd that a race more advanced technologically than the Federation was crushed utterly by the Borg, who, from what I understand, by the time period of Voyager were completely neutered.

Welcome to Voyager. I used to be a Trekkie of sorts, until Voyager started. Gah, I hate you, B & B.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-07-30 08:23pm

Cao Cao wrote:It's something speculated about how the Borg might have assimilated too many drones, leading to slowness in commands reaching the entire collective, lack of any strategic initiative, etc. Sort of like installing too many programs on Windows...
At least, that's my simplistic understanding of what I've heard here and there, I might be wrong.

That's hilarious!

"Then the best way to defeat the Borg would be to send wave after wave of my own men at them! Kif! Call up Federation headquarters and tell them I'm going to need a bigger medal."

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-30 08:31pm

Cao Cao wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Actually the only reason why the Borg were defeated both times they invaded was because of Picard. One cube is more than enough to take down the Federation.
The first time maybe, but not the second. They were blasting that cube to scrap metal even before Picard showed up.
In any case, it was just common sense to send more than one cube the second time. Even if the 1st was a fluke. Just be safe and send a fleet. Send 2 even. Especially given the mentioned examples, where they send dozens, if not "hundreds" (if you believe big head) to worlds that they want.

I recall that the second time Picard was instrumental in defeating the cube. However, as for common sense the Borg seem to suffer from the same problem that the Empire does. Extreme overconfidence....so yeah you're right.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2004-07-30 08:40pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:That's hilarious!

"Then the best way to defeat the Borg would be to send wave after wave of my own men at them! Kif! Call up Federation headquarters and tell them I'm going to need a bigger medal."

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I recall that the second time Picard was instrumental in defeating the cube.

The way I see it, he was instrumental in killing the cube before it could inflict more casualties, but it would've gone down eventually.

However, as for common sense the Borg seem to suffer from the same problem that the Empire does. Extreme overconfidence....so yeah you're right.

Extreme overconfidence and a chronic inability to make a post-mortem on their battles, if "Dark Frontier" was anything to go by, where the Queen is apparentley baffled by "the nature of human resistance".

That's when I totally gave up on B&B-Trek. And wondered why I gave it a chance as long as I did. I think it brained my damage.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-07-30 10:42pm

Crom wrote:These men, Berman and Braga, they're very frightening.

In the words of a wise woman...

No Shit Sherlock!

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-31 03:48pm

Cao Cao wrote:
The way I see it, he was instrumental in killing the cube before it could inflict more casualties, but it would've gone down eventually.

The Cube didn't appear to be near death, or even close. It was still swatting starships out of the sky and some weapon impacts weren't having any effect at all.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-08-01 02:47pm

Cao Cao wrote:It's something speculated about how the Borg might have assimilated too many drones, leading to slowness in commands reaching the entire collective, lack of any strategic initiative, etc. Sort of like installing too many programs on Windows...
At least, that's my simplistic understanding of what I've heard here and there, I might be wrong.

Hmm. Borg Rot.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2004-08-01 02:56pm

Cao Cao wrote:
That's one of the ruts Star Trek has been in for a long time, they can't think of how to beat a good enemy, so the writers just pit the Federation against an assortment of tactically inept morons.

Maybe that is part of the Borg logic process. Maybe the Borg have determined that the entire Federation is worth no more than 1 cube. Basically that even if they conquer the Federation the use of more than one cube would be a net loss overall for the Borg on expenditure vs gain.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-01 04:24pm

MrAnderson wrote:
Cao Cao wrote:
That's one of the ruts Star Trek has been in for a long time, they can't think of how to beat a good enemy, so the writers just pit the Federation against an assortment of tactically inept morons.
Maybe that is part of the Borg logic process. Maybe the Borg have determined that the entire Federation is worth no more than 1 cube. Basically that even if they conquer the Federation the use of more than one cube would be a net loss overall for the Borg on expenditure vs gain.

So they expend two cubes in sequence, lose them both, and gain nothing as opposed to sending two at once and getting something for the expenditure? Great plan there, Chief...

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-08-01 04:28pm

the only possible reason i'd be able to see for the borg sending in cubes was as scouting expeditions to test the Federation's strength, back when the borg were actually smart cunning villains. unfortunately B&B's wanking turned them into imbeciles that don't know of any tactic except the zap brannigan maneuver, and even then only a horribly reduced version of that.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2004-08-01 04:35pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Cao Cao wrote:
The way I see it, he was instrumental in killing the cube before it could inflict more casualties, but it would've gone down eventually.
The Cube didn't appear to be near death, or even close. It was still swatting starships out of the sky and some weapon impacts weren't having any effect at all.

I recall the cube already suffering from power fluctuations when the E-E arrived on scene. Plus visibly you can see it was sustaining much damage, the point at which it could no longer regenerate was close at hand, I should think.
Regardless, even if the cube was as invunerable as the first it was still a silly idea to send it on it's own again. Especially since Picard was the reason the first failed, the Feds still had Picard and the Borg damn well knew they had Picard.
The Empire at least (Palpatine's senilty nonwithstanding) looked at what went wrong with the Death Star 1 and fixed it. Which was far more of a fluke occurence and more difficult to design around than using common sense and sending more forces.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-08-01 04:41pm

Cao Cao wrote:The Empire at least (Palpatine's senilty nonwithstanding) looked at what went wrong with the Death Star 1 and fixed it. Which was far more of a fluke occurence and more difficult to design around than using common sense and sending more forces.

just to go off on a tangent here and nitpick a point, the death star's original 'design flaw' was an intentional inclusion on behalf of its original designer, so it wasn't exactly a fluke per se.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-01 04:52pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Cao Cao wrote:The Empire at least (Palpatine's senilty nonwithstanding) looked at what went wrong with the Death Star 1 and fixed it. Which was far more of a fluke occurence and more difficult to design around than using common sense and sending more forces.
just to go off on a tangent here and nitpick a point, the death star's original 'design flaw' was an intentional inclusion on behalf of its original designer, so it wasn't exactly a fluke per se.

I think he meant that a torpedo going right up that shaft was a fluke, not that the existence of the shaft was a fluke.