What if Praxis didn't go boom?

[Steve]

The question is obvious. What if the Klingons were a bit quicker in dealing with whatever crisis triggered Praxis' destruction in ST6? Maybe they also learn a lesson from it and reduce their mining and power production facilities so as to minimize the danger.

What kind of consequence does this have for the Trek timeline?

Consider also this: all signs of "communism" in the Federation are TNG-era. The fancy preaching about bettering mankind and finding peaceful solutions to everything is TNG-era, as well as Starfleet's "every vessel is a science ship" mentality.

And in ST6, the clear implication of the peace initiative with the Klingon Empire is naval disarmament. Assuming that up until Narendra III the Federation didn't quite demilitarize (since Yesterday's Enterprise makes clear that the Khitomer Accords were not quite doing the job until after the Enterprise-C sacrificed itself to stop the Romulan attack on Narendra), perhaps it was that event and the Klingons coming around to being allies in action as well as name that triggered the Federation pacifist approach to politics (and quite possibly the "brushfire" wars of the immediate pre-TNG time period: the wars with the Tsen'kethi, the Talarians, and the Cardassians notably). Remember that it took the UFP twenty years to put the Galaxy-class into commission; entirely possible that it was because post-Narendra III disarmament led to budget cuts and the delaying of the project.

If one gets rid of the explosion of Praxis and the Khitomer Accords.... what happens? Do the UFP and Klingons eventually go to war? Perhaps the Klingon economy implodes some time in the 24th Century like the Soviet economy did (remember that Mara, in "Day of the Dove", said the Klingon homeworld and adjacent worlds were stripped of materials and the Klingons needed to expand to gain new resources). If the Federation dooesn't go lovey-dovey "price of peace", what kind of consequences would that have on the brushfire wars mentioned above?


Considering I've already made such a counter-factual timeline the setting of a Trek fic, I figured I'd get opinions on the kind of universe that the "What If?" posed would create and how it'd be different from canon.

[Praxis]

From the title, for a second I thought you were mad at me

[Praxis]

I believe the cold war would continue, as it had been going on before. Klingon and Feddies would continue with a standoff, and at some point the war would erupt, but the Klingons would be better equipped than in the alternate timeline we saw from the E-C, so they'd win the war in less than 40 years.

[Uraniun235]

When were the Tsen'kethi and Talarians mentioned? They've been tossed around before but I can't remember the episodes they were referenced in. (I'm betting they were DS9 episodes I never saw.)

Anyway, I would personally suspect that the Klingons would continue to be antagonist towards the Federation. Without the collapse of their economy and the brutal damage to their homeworld, they may be able to support expansion into any possible unclaimed territory they border. (or at least, undeveloped territory which they would've surely already claimed in the name of the Klingon Empire anyway)

This could put them on a better footing than they would otherwise enjoy, but without the Khitomer accords the Federation would have no reason to cool off on military development either.

Assuming that up until Narendra III the Federation didn't quite demilitarize (since Yesterday's Enterprise makes clear that the Khitomer Accords were not quite doing the job until after the Enterprise-C sacrificed itself to stop the Romulan attack on Narendra),

How so? The Ent-C may carry something of a military air about itself still, but that doesn't mean the Federation didn't put the brakes on starship construction. Shit, look at how we see so very few Ambassadors in service in TNG, yet we see Excelsior class starships still operating out near the frontier and even old Constellation class starships!

Granted, there are a lot of Excelsiors around, but even that suggests that Starfleet R&D was largely sitting on it's ass for some time, content to just keep churning out Excelsiors and upgrades for them rather than build new starships.

I'm inclined to think that the Khitomer Accords in fact contributed to the Federation's seemingly imminent downfall in Yesterday's Enterprise, as it's possible the Federation was caught with it's pants down with a badly understrength fleet by the Klingons, and they never recovered from the Klingons' first strike.

I'm also inclined to believe that the Federation would still be slow in declaring open war against the Cardassians, although once they did that Starfleet would put significant resources into winning the war quickly and decisively in order to get it out of the way to be able to deal with bigger problems. However, if the Khitomer accords led to an anemic Starfleet in the 24th century, it's possible that Starfleet didn't have the ships to do so in the actual TNG timeline without compromising Federation interests elsewhere.

UFP/Klingon relations are, in my opinion, a matter of political culture within the Empire. Gorkon and his ilk appeared to be a new breed of Klingon; one who saw peace as an acceptable alternative to conquest while still being able to maintain a martial tradition. Clearly there have always been those who disagreed with such a position; Kerla believed that such a transformation would "annihilate" Klingon culture, and the "religious fanatics" of TNG Heart of Glory also shared a similar belief. It has also been said repeatedly throughout TNG+ by various Klingons that the Federation alliance was somehow responsible for weakening the Klingon people, and in DS9 the Klingons readily invaded Cardassia largely for the fun of having someone to invade. (Changeling collusion? Just a convenient excuse, in my eyes; they wanted a fight and they found one.)

Praxis may or may not have been the only way for liberals such as Gorkon to be heard and respected; without Praxis there may very well be a UFP/Klingon war, however if the Klingons should be ruined by such a war it could very well be a far more effective teacher than Praxis ever could be. Ironically, by finally having it out with the Federation and getting their noses bloody, they may very well come to respect and honor the Federation even more than in the canon timeline, possibly forging an even stronger alliance against their mutual enemy the Romulans.

While it's possible that such a war could be costly enough for the Federation to spark widespread pacifism in it's aftermath (a la the pacifism following the devastation of World War 1), it's also very likely that such a war would spur advances in military technology, as well as battle-harden a whole new generation of Starfleet officers. Generations of Starfleet officers who have never had to fight a real battle must have had a detrimental effect on the canon 24th century Starfleet Command, and without that detriment we could see a continuing military tradition within the fleet.

If this is the case, it's likely that following starships will be designed accordingly; and while Starfleet will likely continue the saucer/stardrive/nacelles configuration and eventually produce the Galaxy class, it's likely that this alternate Galaxy class would be designed in accordance with it's proper role as battleship; bringing to the field an awesome degree of firepower and endurance, it would be more than a match for the Romulan D'Deridex Warbird.

The fancy preaching about bettering mankind and finding peaceful solutions to everything is TNG-era

Heh, I don't think Picard had a peaceful solution in mind when he went charging into the Neutral Zone in "The Defector".

[Steve]

When were the Tsen'kethi and Talarians mentioned? They've been tossed around before but I can't remember the episodes they were referenced in. (I'm betting they were DS9 episodes I never saw.)

Tsen'kethi were DS9. A Changeling tried to provoke another war with them in the DS9 Season 3 finale "The Adversary", and Sisko was in the last war serving on the Okinawa under then-Captain Leyton.

Talarians were TNG, from the 4th Season Episode "Suddenly Human". They also fought a war with the UFP in the same time frame.

Anyway, I would personally suspect that the Klingons would continue to be antagonist towards the Federation. Without the collapse of their economy and the brutal damage to their homeworld, they may be able to support expansion into any possible unclaimed territory they border. (or at least, undeveloped territory which they would've surely already claimed in the name of the Klingon Empire anyway)

For a time, but if containment limits that expansion so that the Klingon economy cannot maintain it's military, we could see internal pressures lead to economic collapse.

This could put them on a better footing than they would otherwise enjoy, but without the Khitomer accords the Federation would have no reason to cool off on military development either.

Exactly.

How so? The Ent-C may carry something of a military air about itself still, but that doesn't mean the Federation didn't put the brakes on starship construction. Shit, look at how we see so very few Ambassadors in service in TNG, yet we see Excelsior class starships still operating out near the frontier and even old Constellation class starships!

Granted, there are a lot of Excelsiors around, but even that suggests that Starfleet R&D was largely sitting on it's ass for some time, content to just keep churning out Excelsiors and upgrades for them rather than build new starships.

I'm inclined to think that the Khitomer Accords in fact contributed to the Federation's seemingly imminent downfall in Yesterday's Enterprise, as it's possible the Federation was caught with it's pants down with a badly understrength fleet by the Klingons, and they never recovered from the Klingons' first strike.

That's entirely possible. But I think you would have just enough military-minded individuals in Starfleet to limit said disarmament and decline in naval ability until the tightening of the Klingon Alliance after Narendra leads to the final step towards the "idealist" Starfleet we see in TNG.

IOW, you have a steady decline of Starfleet power which hastens after the incident at Narendra III, leading to - among other things - the failure of Starfleet to procure the Galaxy-class and more Ambassador-class ships to replace it's aging line of Excelsiors.

I'm also inclined to believe that the Federation would still be slow in declaring open war against the Cardassians, although once they did that Starfleet would put significant resources into winning the war quickly and decisively in order to get it out of the way to be able to deal with bigger problems. However, if the Khitomer accords led to an anemic Starfleet in the 24th century, it's possible that Starfleet didn't have the ships to do so in the actual TNG timeline without compromising Federation interests elsewhere.

That is the one viable reason I see for the UFP not stomping the Cardassian Union flat. That and perhaps other wars in the region with the Tsen'kethi and Talarians (Since both races are apparently close to Cardassian space).

UFP/Klingon relations are, in my opinion, a matter of political culture within the Empire. Gorkon and his ilk appeared to be a new breed of Klingon; one who saw peace as an acceptable alternative to conquest while still being able to maintain a martial tradition. Clearly there have always been those who disagreed with such a position; Kerla believed that such a transformation would "annihilate" Klingon culture, and the "religious fanatics" of TNG Heart of Glory also shared a similar belief. It has also been said repeatedly throughout TNG+ by various Klingons that the Federation alliance was somehow responsible for weakening the Klingon people, and in DS9 the Klingons readily invaded Cardassia largely for the fun of having someone to invade. (Changeling collusion? Just a convenient excuse, in my eyes; they wanted a fight and they found one.)

Praxis may or may not have been the only way for liberals such as Gorkon to be heard and respected; without Praxis there may very well be a UFP/Klingon war, however if the Klingons should be ruined by such a war it could very well be a far more effective teacher than Praxis ever could be. Ironically, by finally having it out with the Federation and getting their noses bloody, they may very well come to respect and honor the Federation even more than in the canon timeline, possibly forging an even stronger alliance against their mutual enemy the Romulans.

While it's possible that such a war could be costly enough for the Federation to spark widespread pacifism in it's aftermath (a la the pacifism following the devastation of World War 1), it's also very likely that such a war would spur advances in military technology, as well as battle-harden a whole new generation of Starfleet officers. Generations of Starfleet officers who have never had to fight a real battle must have had a detrimental effect on the canon 24th century Starfleet Command, and without that detriment we could see a continuing military tradition within the fleet.

If this is the case, it's likely that following starships will be designed accordingly; and while Starfleet will likely continue the saucer/stardrive/nacelles configuration and eventually produce the Galaxy class, it's likely that this alternate Galaxy class would be designed in accordance with it's proper role as battleship; bringing to the field an awesome degree of firepower and endurance, it would be more than a match for the Romulan D'Deridex Warbird.

The fancy preaching about bettering mankind and finding peaceful solutions to everything is TNG-era

Heh, I don't think Picard had a peaceful solution in mind when he went charging into the Neutral Zone in "The Defector".

Very interesting. Admittedly I did go a slightly different route when I wrote Timelines. In the end, Starfleet tech was about 5 years ahead of it's canon counterpart (in 2368, about 4th-5th Season TNG, the UFP had a fleet of Defiants plus all of the First Contact-era ships: Akira, Sovereign, Steamrunner, Saber, etc.). But the political situation was different. The Klingons I had end up allying with the Ferengi in a mutually-parastical relationship: the Klingons need Ferengi capital to sustain their economy and military and the Ferengi need the Klingon military to maintain their own interests and protect their borders.

I can't help but feel, though, that it was Praxis that defined the outcome of the 24th Century (Assuming Trek was a "Real" universe of course).

[Stofsk]

Tsen'kethi were DS9. A Changeling tried to provoke another war with them in the DS9 Season 3 finale "The Adversary", and Sisko was in the last war serving on the Okinawa under then-Captain Leyton.

Talarians were TNG, from the 4th Season Episode "Suddenly Human". They also fought a war with the UFP in the same time frame.

Possible allies of some kind? I doubt there would be anything that could confirm, other than the implication given similar timeframes...

[warpusher]

I think that if Praxis hadn't gone boom...war would have been enevetible.

The Fed's would have dealt supprisingly well with the Klingons...since the Excelsior class was just coming on to main stream production...I don't know if we've seen the Klingon counter to this ship...though the R&D into BOP's that fire when cloaked would count for something

(Klingon BC = Connie Equivalent)

Starfleet would continue to do realistic training for battle...Kobiashi Maru

The Fed plunge into the deep end of Communism could have been forstalled.

Additionally, perhaps the Klingon TNG fall into the Space-Viking-Kathles-worshiping slobs wouldn't have happened. Klingons fought supprisingly well in TOS and the movies. Kruge displayed a ruthless streak and Chang was cunning. perhaps with Praxis still around the genocide of the "less bumpy head paler skin" Klingon's wouldn't have happened.

Also...perhaps much like the Soviets in their death throes...the Klings could throw down with a (for that era) weaker power....they do have that hatred for the Rommies.

[Cao Cao]

Wasn't the explosion at Praxis because of over mining or what have you another symptom of their faltering economy, rather than the cause?
Of course with it's destruction their economy collapsed and their home world was compromised.
I believe that if Praxis hadn't gone boom, their overproduction and massive energy requirments to maintain war readiness at any cost would've bankrupted them eventually anyway, only this time with a fully armed and ready Federation on their doorstep and possibly resentful provinces within the Empire ready to break off.
The explosion as it is probably gave them breathing space to restructure their economy, especially with the Federation willing to help.

[Stofsk]

The explosion as it is probably gave them breathing space to restructure their economy, especially with the Federation willing to help.

Unlikely, given the gradual stagnation of the Empire from TOS-highs (where "Everyone was learning to speak Klingonese" because they were considered THAT powerful) to TNG-lows (the Klingons regressed socially into a fundamentalist state, and their once-proud civilisation was determined by infighting and insecure borders - a knife or sword fight could decide the next leader of the empire, and frequently did ref. "Reunion", "Redemption part 2", "Apocalypse Rising", and one of the later season 7 DS9 episodes of which I forget the name; the Romulans continually take delight in raiding border worlds like Narendra III and Khitomer, massacring Klingon citizens with impunity).

Praxis exploding was disastrous for the Klingons. Their society experienced an upheaval from a brutal-yet-civilised Empire to the Space Viking 'Traditionalist' state they eventually end up in. It's doubtful their economy improved in this time either. If their society declined then economy is another you can cross out as well.

And the Federation... Pro-Communist proponents such as myself feel that a revolution occurred sometime after Praxis and the Tomed Incident (which isn't explained in the canon show... although it's apparently explained in a novel) - something I always thought the Romulans caused or were affected by that 'influenced' the political climate we see during TNG: The Federation go from a socialist/capitalist state in TOS where they had a real military securing things to a communist 'utopia' which delighted in performing inhumane social engineering experiments (children assigned on warships etc); the Klingons go from a powerful and feared Empire to a fractured and declining society, at loss with itself and living in the past; the Romulans remain the same, only isolated behind guarded borders.

Um, the point of that tangent was to suggest the Praxis Disaster had more effect than previously believed. I apologise for the speculation on my part.

[Cao Cao]

I probably worded that poorly, as I didn't mean to say that this restructuring made them any better. Indeed as you say since the time of ST6 the Klingons went massivley downhill. But I still believe they were screwed even if Praxis hadn't exploded as the TOS Klingons were maintaining an Empire too large to handle, hence the excessive mining (well that's the impression I got anyway).

[Stofsk]

I probably worded that poorly, as I didn't mean to say that this restructuring made them any better. Indeed as you say since the time of ST6 the Klingons went massivley downhill.

I submit that the Klingon moderates in charge during and directly after the Khitomer Peace Accords had to face the herculean task of maintaining a stable empire with less resources that it could rely on in the past (not to mention Qo'Nos becoming a shithole to live in after a period of 50 years).

It's possible that they met with limited success, and their extremist opponents used this to their advantage. All theoretical, unfortunately. But it does make sense.

But I still believe they were screwed even if Praxis hadn't exploded as the TOS Klingons were maintaining an Empire too large to handle, hence the excessive mining (well that's the impression I got anyway).

Not to the same extent though. If Praxis hadn't exploded then the Empire would have either corrected it's folly of overmining and rectified it (truly becoming a terror of the stars) or a Praxis-equivalent would occur regardless. If Praxis hadn't exploded it would've given the Klingons a chance to change by their own designs; that's not to suggest they would have found a working solution, maybe all that could be done was delay the inevitable; but again, this is just speculation. Praxis as it occurred royally screwed them over in the short and long runs.

[Uraniun235]

I can't help but feel, though, that it was Praxis that defined the outcome of the 24th Century (Assuming Trek was a "Real" universe of course).

I have to agree. Federation and Klingon society could very well have been very different in the 24th century had Praxis not occurred.

If Praxis hadn't exploded then the Empire would have either corrected it's folly of overmining and rectified it (truly becoming a terror of the stars)

ST6 suggests that even without the Praxis incident the Klingon empire was struggling to maintain military parity with the Federation (a la the Soviet Union's attempt to keep pace with Reagan's rampant military expansion in the 80's - especially since ST6 is more or less supposed to be analogous to the fall of the Soviet Union), so even if they improved their safety procedues in mining it's quite possible that they simply wouldn't have the resources to expand as quickly as the Federation.

[Patrick Degan]

And the Federation... Pro-Communist proponents such as myself feel that a revolution occurred sometime after Praxis and the Tomed Incident (which isn't explained in the canon show... although it's apparently explained in a novel) - something I always thought the Romulans caused or were affected by that 'influenced' the political climate we see during TNG: The Federation go from a socialist/capitalist state in TOS where they had a real military securing things to a communist 'utopia' which delighted in performing inhumane social engineering experiments (children assigned on warships etc); the Klingons go from a powerful and feared Empire to a fractured and declining society, at loss with itself and living in the past; the Romulans remain the same, only isolated behind guarded borders.

Examining the evidence, a case could be made that, at some point between the events of ST6 and TNG, there was some sort of general galactipolitical upheaval which altered the structures of all four major powers. In addition to whatever transformed the Federation into a communist state, and the implicit revolution which brought a fundamentalist theocracy into power in the Klingon Empire, there is also the crisis which triggered a fascist military coup in the Cardassian Union, and likewise the government of the Romulan Empire seems to have been altered to that of a military dictatorship overseen by the regime's loyalty police, as on Cardassia Prime. The Big Question is, what happened?

As for What Might Have Been... If the Federation/Klingon Cold War drags on into the middle of the 24th century, both the Federation and the Empire will be matching one another in military development, so the two powers should remain on a par with one another. They become unchallengeable on their own terms and neither the Romulans or the Cardassians have the resources to keep up with this parallel superpower. Perhaps they turn isolationist.

[Uraniun235]

The Cardassians, IIRC, experienced a severe economic depression at some point, which led to the adoption of martial rule. What evidence is there for a government change within the Romulan Empire between TOS and TNG?

I suspect that the Federation/Klingon alliance, forged in the absence of any war or glorious battles, is the biggest cause of the fundamentalist revival within the Klingon Empire. For decades Klingons have seen their galactic importance wane, their military becoming increasingly irrelevant with nobody to match themselves against (whatever their reasons, it seems the Klingons don't have much will to engage in open warfare with the Romulans), and all of this since making peace with the Federation - a power many see as having grown weak and without honor, which would seem concurrent with the Federation migration to communism.

As I indicated earlier, it seems to me that a Federation/Klingon war in place of the peace forged at Khitomer might have proven to have greater long-term benefit to both parties; with a war fresh on their minds, the Federation's perception of a need for a strong military force is refreshed and the Starfleet officer corps is similarly refreshed, having earned a great deal of knowledge and experience throughout the conflict. The Klingons, on the other hand, will probably gain a new appreciation for the potential ferocity of the Federation in a large-scale conflict, who will have earned the Klingons' respect; this respect could very well be a far more solid foundation on which to build an alliance than the shaky transition from cold war to cold alliance between Khitomer and TNG.

[JME2]

A lot of these arguements about the Klingons regressing since Praxis come to light in the duology The Left Hand of Destiny by J.G. Hertzler (Martok) and Jeff Lang. These issues come face to face with the original and true, as we learn, teachings of Kahless, not the re-defined soup we've been given in the TNG-era. It helps restore faith in Martok and those closest to him that the Empire can and will enter the glorious future that many have dreamed of, with an ally like the Feds to help be there.

[Patrick Degan]

The Cardassians, IIRC, experienced a severe economic depression at some point, which led to the adoption of martial rule. What evidence is there for a government change within the Romulan Empire between TOS and TNG?

Speculative, but it seems that the government of Romulus was not under the military's thumb in the TOS era as in TNG, and there didn't seem to be any sort of loyalty police. We hear of the Praetors in both series, of course, but never of the Tal'shiar until later TNG, and clear indications in "Unification" that the Romulan populace must be wary of secret police spying. Indeed, in "Balance Of Terror", it seemed that certain military officers enjoyed the patronage of one or more Praetors, implying that they controlled the military not only through the chain of command but behind-the-scenes politiking.

According to Gul Madred, in "Chain Of Command (2)", Cardassia Prime suffered a severe famine in which a significant percentage of the population died. The military became the only force which could feed the people and restore order, hence a coup took place which displaced whatever government originally existed and led Cardassia on its path of conquest which overtook Bajor and brought it into direct conflict with the UFP.

[Uraniun235]

Ah. My guess then would be that the Romulan politicians were at some point basically out-politicked by certain members of the Romulan military.