What's the Klingon Intelligence organization?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-07-16 03:18pm

The feds have Section 31. The romulans have the Tal Shiar. The cardassians have the obsidian order. What's the klingon intelligence/counter-intelligence organization?

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2004-07-16 03:45pm

Having a Military Intlegence orgenization requires a level of tactical knowlage that they don't have. If you gave a bunch of Chimps knifes and pistols and somehow managed to tell them how they work, you would have a far superior army to Klingons.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-07-16 03:53pm

Zor wrote:Having a Military Intlegence orgenization requires a level of tactical knowlage that they don't have. If you gave a bunch of Chimps knifes and pistols and somehow managed to tell them how they work, you would have a far superior army to Klingons.

Well duh. They could hang in trees by their hands and shoot/stab/throw knives at you with their feet. Or vice versa.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2004-07-16 03:56pm

Zor wrote:Having a Military Intlegence orgenization requires a level of tactical knowlage that they don't posses.

Klingon intelligence teams do show up a few times in DS9 episodes, though. Inevitably, their approach seems to be: "If a beating doesn't get the info you want, you're not hitting hard enough."

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-16 05:32pm

Klingon... intelligence? They have that?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-07-16 08:36pm

What's the Klingon Intelligence organization?

Torturers R'Us?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-16 10:01pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
Zor wrote:Having a Military Intlegence orgenization requires a level of tactical knowlage that they don't posses.
Klingon intelligence teams do show up a few times in DS9 episodes, though. Inevitably, their approach seems to be: "If a beating doesn't get the info you want, you're not hitting hard enough."

You have to remember that the Klingon Empire had lost it's way. This even became apparant to Worf when the final Dax brought it up in a conversation.

Basically, the mid DS9 Klingon Empire was nothing more than a huge gang looking around for a fight.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2004-07-16 10:28pm

I would venture a guess that they don't have one. After all wouldn't sneaking around and spying on others be considered dishonourable?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-17 12:42am

Klingons may not have an intelligence agency. These are people who believe in charging with batleths rather than using a ranged weapon like a disruptor. Spying would be dishonorable to them.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-07-17 01:13am

I think they're just called "Klingon Intelligence."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-17 02:12am

Cpl Kendall wrote:I would venture a guess that they don't have one. After all wouldn't sneaking around and spying on others be considered dishonourable?

You bring up an interesting point that triggered a memory of mine; in season 2 Dax meets up with Kang, Kronos and Kor (the three Klingon adversaries that faced Kirk in TOS, complete with prosthetic cro-magnon head pieces

) and the four of them are devising a scheme to infiltrate a bad guy's stronghold and kill him. Dax, being centuries old and knowing the Klingons for a long time, suggested a Klingon tactic of sneaking in and killing the baddie in his sleep. The tactic was rejected by Kang for officially being a 'dishonourable' tactic (although that wasn't the real reason when he confided to Jadzia, that was just the one he made for the troops).

Let's not forget that in TOS the Klingons had a effective intelligence service - if it weren't for a certain furry and likeable critter with an amazing sex drive, Arne Darvin may very well have got away with his mission and Sherman's Planet would've been won over by the Klingon Empire (I forget what actually happened - perhaps it was just an interstellar embarassment), and Kirk's career may have been finished as he's sacrificed as a political scapegoat. Thank god for tribbles, eh?

The Klingons have an intelligence service, and they should also have a security service as well - if they didn't then they would have been steamrolled by the Dominion, the Cardassians and whoever else has a bone to pick with them. It should be pointed out: the Cardassian Obsidian Order or the Cardassian CENTRAL COMMAND had NO IDEA the Klingons were planning an invasion in WotW. Dukat was suprised, and he was fucking warned by a 'retired' agent taking up tailoring as a profession; and HE was 'told' by a bunch of people who had no obligation to share the information. The OO isn't top shit as it seems to have been. Of course, it was probably suffering from a great deal of fallout thanks to Tain's abortive attack in TDIC, but still - it takes a fucking good amount of planning and security to hide an invasion fleet, even Starfleet wasn't expecting it.

Bottomline, Klingon's seem to have an effective security/intelligence organisation and surprisingly we have no idea who they are or what they're about. Certainly better than the fucking OO who couldn't keep their borders secured from Maquis terrorists nor detect a large fleet sitting right next door. Certainly better than the fucking TalShiar who failed to destablise the KE during their civil war, AND failed to invade Vulcan. Of course, that's OT - I just like pointing out all the other Intelligence services are just as fucking incompetent as the Klingon's seem to be. Even Starfleet has some doozeys.

Just because the Klingons like sending waves of men to their deaths doesn't mean they don't have intelligence agents. They got some things right a couple of times. However, I don't think they're that good - the Dominion War did too much damage to the Klingons, so much that they may never recover. (Inter Arma Silent Enem Leges)

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-17 02:56am

Section 31 isn't so much "Federation Intelligence" as it is "Federation vigilantes with Federation funding thanks to an obscure bit in the Charter". I'm pretty sure there's a "Starfleet Intelligence", for whom Adm. Pressman was working for (or at least with the great interest of).

Klingon intelligence probably has a title like "Imperial Klingon Intelligence" or something like that.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-07-17 04:31am

There is the case of a Klingon in a TNG episode that had a device that encoded information into DNA sequences which were then injected into his blood to be retrieved later. So the Klingons do have some form of Intellegence Agency in TNG era

Could someone help me with the episode

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-07-17 04:33am

Isolder74 wrote:There is the case of a Klingon in a TNG episode that had a device that encoded information into DNA sequences which were then injected into his blood to be retrieved later. So the Klingons do have some form of Intellegence Agency in TNG era

Could someone help me with the episode

IIRC that was The Drumhead.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2004-07-17 08:11am

Uraniun235 wrote:Section 31 isn't so much "Federation Intelligence" as it is "Federation vigilantes with Federation funding thanks to an obscure bit in the Charter". I'm pretty sure there's a "Starfleet Intelligence", for whom Adm. Pressman was working for (or at least with the great interest of).

Klingon intelligence probably has a title like "Imperial Klingon Intelligence" or something like that.

Okay, bit of research done.

The DS9 episode "Visionary" has a team of three "Klingon Intelligence" put in at DS9 to keep tabs on a Romulan delegation. Two of the agents are named: Bo'rak and Atul. Apparently Bo'rak used the cover story of being a Klingon freighter captain whose ship developed mechanical problems, though I'd have to dig out the episode and watch it to confirm that bit.

Edit: that should read "Klingon Intelligence" agents up there.

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2004-07-17 01:45pm

Stofsk wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:I would venture a guess that they don't have one. After all wouldn't sneaking around and spying on others be considered dishonourable?

The Klingons have an intelligence service, and they should also have a security service as well - if they didn't then they would have been steamrolled by the Dominion, the Cardassians and whoever else has a bone to pick with them. It should be pointed out: the Cardassian Obsidian Order or the Cardassian CENTRAL COMMAND had NO IDEA the Klingons were planning an invasion in WotW. Dukat was suprised, and he was fucking warned by a 'retired' agent taking up tailoring as a profession; and HE was 'told' by a bunch of people who had no obligation to share the information. The OO isn't top shit as it seems to have been. Of course, it was probably suffering from a great deal of fallout thanks to Tain's abortive attack in TDIC, but still - it takes a fucking good amount of planning and security to hide an invasion fleet, even Starfleet wasn't expecting it.

Certainly better than the fucking OO who couldn't keep their borders secured from Maquis terrorists nor detect a large fleet sitting right next door.

By the time WOTW happenned, the Central Command was overthrown. The OO was destroyed by the Dominion in TDIC. What was left of the organization collapsed, perhaps days later.

The Klingon invasion was a response to the overthrow of Central Command and the OO.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2004-07-17 02:44pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Section 31 isn't so much "Federation Intelligence" as it is "Federation vigilantes with Federation funding thanks to an obscure bit in the Charter". I'm pretty sure there's a "Starfleet Intelligence", for whom Adm. Pressman was working for (or at least with the great interest of).

Klingon intelligence probably has a title like "Imperial Klingon Intelligence" or something like that.

Well, I always thought of Section 31 as more of a covert ops unit rather than a pure intelligence gathering detail. Besides, most branches of the military have their own intelligence staffs in addition to the CIA.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-07-17 06:08pm

Except that where the CIA reports to the President, Section 31 reports to no one.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-17 09:51pm

Lord MJ wrote:By the time WOTW happenned, the Central Command was overthrown.

You're right, the CC was overthrown with the Detapa council - but all that means is that boot went onto the other foot, so to speak. The Detapa council still had no idea the Klingons had an invasion fleet parked a spitting distance from their borders. That's a direct intelligence failure, or clever Klingon security - the former is probably more likely however. But it's hard to determine.

The OO was destroyed by the Dominion in TDIC. What was left of the organization collapsed, perhaps days later.

I have a hard time believing that. Tain was killed, and he was the leader of the OO; and a sizable portion of OO agents, Cardassian Naval crew and their Romulan equivalents perished in that abortive attack. But the ENTIRE Cardassian intelligence/security bureau being destroyed in mere days? Like I said, I have a real HARD time believing that. The most I'll concede is OO got seriously setback and was recovering, but nevertheless whoever survived or whoever REPLACED the OO (because if, like you say it was destroyed, then an alternative organisation MUST have replaced it) then they the still failed to penetrate Klingon security. Or hell, simply monitor their border security.

The Klingon invasion was a response to the overthrow of Central Command and the OO.

Um, yeah. No arguments here. I was just pointing out that Klingon security/intelligence was good enough to get a cloaked invasion fleet into Federation territory (surprising Sisko, and thereby being unexpected by Starfleet's own intelligence agency) and their intentions were similarly obscure to the Cardassians (the proof of that was when Worf asked Gowron directly what the hell he was doing, and Sisko et al betrayed the Federation's allies).

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-07-18 08:16am

The only answer i can think of is non-canon. In Star Trek Starfleet Command The Klingon special Task force equivilant was the "Black Fleet"

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-07-18 04:23pm

Stofsk wrote: I have a hard time believing that. Tain was killed, and he was the leader of the OO; and a sizable portion of OO agents, Cardassian Naval crew and their Romulan equivalents perished in that abortive attack. But the ENTIRE Cardassian intelligence/security bureau being destroyed in mere days? Like I said, I have a real HARD time believing that. The most I'll concede is OO got seriously setback and was recovering, but nevertheless whoever survived or whoever REPLACED the OO (because if, like you say it was destroyed, then an alternative organisation MUST have replaced it) then they the still failed to penetrate Klingon security. Or hell, simply monitor their border security.

According to Dukat in WotW, the Obsidian Order had been destroyed and they had no use for spies any longer. Now its possible this was just a temporary situation, but from what I understand of the Cardassian commander structure, the Obsidian Order ran a significant portion of the Cardassian Empire, something that went well beyond its duties as an intelligence agency. Obviously they were a sort of political entity complete with enemies so when Tain was lost in the invasion along with a good deal of the senior staff, the Obsidian Order could no longer stand against its military equivalents and was overthrown.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-18 11:18pm

The Kernel wrote:According to Dukat in WotW, the Obsidian Order had been destroyed and they had no use for spies any longer.

Dukat was probably telling the truth (IF we can believe him - he is a manipulative bastard, don't forget), but if he stated the Cardassians had no use for spies then, quite frankly, he was on the Cardassian equivalent of Crack.

Now its possible this was just a temporary situation,

I would suggest it almost certainly a temporary problem - no nation can survive for long without some sort of intelligence/security organisation.

but from what I understand of the Cardassian commander structure, the Obsidian Order ran a significant portion of the Cardassian Empire, something that went well beyond its duties as an intelligence agency.

I got the same impression too. Sort of like a "Who watches the watchmen?" situation.

Obviously they were a sort of political entity complete with enemies so when Tain was lost in the invasion along with a good deal of the senior staff, the Obsidian Order could no longer stand against its military equivalents and was overthrown.

I don't think it was a complete political entity, just a really powerful KGB-esque bureau which had a lot of dirt on EVERYONE.

In any case, if the OO was completely overthrown then the Cardassians metaphorically shot themselves in the kneecaps. Then the klingons came by and kicked them in the balls. It's starting to make sense how Gowron managed to sneak an invasion fleet so close to them...

Unfortunately, this STILL doesn't explain starfleet's surprise at seeing a fleet decloak in close proximity at their most valuable asset. Klingon security and intelligence earned it's bread for that week.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-07-19 12:05am

The Kernel wrote:
Stofsk wrote: I have a hard time believing that. Tain was killed, and he was the leader of the OO; and a sizable portion of OO agents, Cardassian Naval crew and their Romulan equivalents perished in that abortive attack. But the ENTIRE Cardassian intelligence/security bureau being destroyed in mere days? Like I said, I have a real HARD time believing that. The most I'll concede is OO got seriously setback and was recovering, but nevertheless whoever survived or whoever REPLACED the OO (because if, like you say it was destroyed, then an alternative organisation MUST have replaced it) then they the still failed to penetrate Klingon security. Or hell, simply monitor their border security.
According to Dukat in WotW, the Obsidian Order had been destroyed and they had no use for spies any longer. Now its possible this was just a temporary situation, but from what I understand of the Cardassian commander structure, the Obsidian Order ran a significant portion of the Cardassian Empire, something that went well beyond its duties as an intelligence agency. Obviously they were a sort of political entity complete with enemies so when Tain was lost in the invasion along with a good deal of the senior staff, the Obsidian Order could no longer stand against its military equivalents and was overthrown.

Yet the Getapo and other Nazi groups acted just like this. The Obsidian order represented the Military Governments attempts to spy on their enemies and to watch the civilian population. so it makes sense that Dukat would not admit that they still opperated.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-07-24 01:07am

darthdavid wrote:The feds have Section 31. The romulans have the Tal Shiar. The cardassians have the obsidian order. What's the klingon intelligence/counter-intelligence organization?

A guy with binoculars and a walkie talkie?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-07-24 01:23am

Metrion Cascade wrote:
darthdavid wrote:The feds have Section 31. The romulans have the Tal Shiar. The cardassians have the obsidian order. What's the klingon intelligence/counter-intelligence organization?
A guy with binoculars and a walkie talkie?

No, a guy with opera glasses and signal flags.

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What's the Klingon Intelligence organization?

What's the Klingon Intelligence organization?

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