Moderator: Vympel
Yes but it was the reruns and the TOS movies that made Trek grow and pawed the way to TNG.Darth_Zod wrote:
there was at least ten years between the end of ToS and the beginning of TNG. when TNG came out fans were practically screaming for it. ten years might do it some good.
I don't think it's beyond repair. It's certainly to the point that there's no easy solution at all but it's hardly to the point that it's impossible to fix. There are a fair amount of Trek and sci-fi fans out there that if the franchise was turned around would give it a second shot. And given the attention span of the average TV veiwer, they can be lured back easily enough.EmperorSolo51 wrote:I'm going to agree with Defiant on this one. What Berman and Braga did to the Star trek Franchise is beyond repair.
Actually Roddenberry was rather blowful when it came to doing real drama.EmperorSolo51 wrote:I don't think that even Gene Roddenbury himself (if he were still alive) would be able to save star trek from falling into the laughingstock of Scifi.
Probably.EmperorSolo51 wrote:JMS would be better off doing another B5 series and not tying his name in with a dieing franchise.
I like JMS, but I don't think he's a genius. Like you said, he has done things which have really stunk. I also think it's somewhat unfair to put any writer on top of a pedestal by calling them a genius. In a way, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.Master of Ossus wrote:Hmmm... on the one hand, I have every respect for JMS as the genius that put together B5. On the other hand, some of his work after the first four seasons really stunk up the TV.
Agreed. JMS taking over would be a remarkable improvement, and I really do want to see what he has in mind for ST if given the ball to play with. I have a feeling he'd have been right at home with ENT - something about how Earth is weak in pre-federation days compared to much later (DS9 era) where it seems nothing can hurt them at all; I just think that would appeal to him more. Of course, that's just another 'might have been...' wish.However, if JMS were to run a new ST series, that would get me to watch, again, and I haven't been doing that with Enterprise, recently.
Season 5 was kind of beyond his control. We all know that Babylon 5 was planned out from the very beggining. However, during production, it wasnt certain that the show would get a fifth season, and he promised that he would complete the story. So with the future of the series uncertain, he compressed what he had worked out for season 4 and part of season 5 into one season. Thats the why the Shadow War was wraped up so quickly, and certain plot threads were just dropped. So when the fifth season was picked up, he only had about half a seasons worth of material to work with. The rest is just cream-filling.Master of Ossus wrote:Hmmm... on the one hand, I have every respect for JMS as the genius that put together B5. On the other hand, some of his work after the first four seasons really stunk up the TV.
However, if JMS were to run a new ST series, that would get me to watch, again, and I haven't been doing that with Enterprise, recently.
I hear that all the time. He's the writer, and Executive Producer, and according to him the network suits didn't interfere ever (DVD commentaries). Not to mention every fucking episode from season 3 onwards - with ONE exception - has his name on the credits as 'writer'.Macross wrote:Season 5 was kind of beyond his control.
B5 was planned from the beginning. So what? Sinclair was originally going to be the chief protagonist and the finale was going to be the "Now you have to go back in time and be Valen, so that we can get to the mess we're in now in the first place." Needless to say reality interfered when Michael O'Hare fucked off (or was fired for being too Trollish-looking. I forget which), and JMS had to change the story to fit this development. Ivanova was supposed to be introduced in season 2, but then the girl who played Takashiro (IIRC) pissed off! Andrea Thompson wanted off, so Talia was killed off and Lyta came in.We all know that Babylon 5 was planned out from the very beggining. However, during production, it wasnt certain that the show would get a fifth season, and he promised that he would complete the story. *snip*
Season 4 wasnt bad, it just felt rushed because of time constraints. JMS thought Season four would be the last season so he needed to wrap up the two main stroy arcs, the Shadow War, and the Earth Civil war. Originally the Shadow War was to end mid-to-late Season 4, and Earth Civial War was to end in Season 5.Vympel wrote:What JMS should've done was continued the Shadow War in Season 5 and pretened 4 never happened, from the sounds of it
(Season 4 has yet to come out in Australia, fucking obscene delay)
I know. No offence or anything, but characterisation is KING of storytelling, with Plot being Duke. Setting is one of the Counts or Barons.Macross wrote:Stofsk, I never said that he didnt plan for season 5, all I said that he had to expand half a seasons worth of stories into a full season. *snip* Granted, its not that simple, but all of the major story elements are still there, only the names have changed. Sinclair still becomes Valen.
No, TV politics isn't the reason. You're attributing failed storywriting for a completely unrelated matter. Network politics dictate if and when a show get's continued, nothing more. We have JMS's own admission that the Networks left them alone - they sent a memo saying "knock yourselves out, we don't give a shit" or something to that effect, in season 1. In season 2 the only thing they interfered with was casting - they wanted Top Gun character (what's his face, the pilot who dies at the end of the season), and either they wanted a replacement for Sinclair or that was the extent of their interference (I keep hearing that Michael O'Hare wanted to leave, and did so under amicable conditions - but then I also hear how he wasn't liked by the networks, but that could just be an urban legend made up by fans who hated Sinclair).With season five its differant, there were not enough story elements to fill an entire season. So what are your options? Introduce new story elements, or expand existing story elements. JMS choose to expand. When you watch season five, doesnt it just feel that the whole telepath and Garabaldi stories just seem to drag on longer then they should. Well, TV politics is the reason. Look at the second half of the season, when the story is back on track, the show is just as good as it ever was.
Is JMS giving the message "Good things come to those who fuck people over and treat their friends like shit?"
Not really, he had to re-write the season because of thanks to the serious delay in getting the fifth season confirmed he had to cut short the Earth Civil War arc that would have been carried across the first half of season five. Do you think it's a coicidence that the second half dove tails nicely with the ending of season 4? It's not at all.Stofsk wrote:I hear that all the time. He's the writer, and Executive Producer, and according to him the network suits didn't interfere ever (DVD commentaries). Not to mention every fucking episode from season 3 onwards - with ONE exception - has his name on the credits as 'writer'.Macross wrote:Season 5 was kind of beyond his control.
Sorry, but Season 5 sounds like it was 95-100% under his control.
I know this. It was originally going to end with the "Let's torture Sheriden!" episode. I understand why he felt he had to do this, but it's still his responsibility - he signed his name off on the episodes, he was the credited writer - that means the story was done by him.Stormbringer wrote:Not really, he had to re-write the season because of thanks to the serious delay in getting the fifth season confirmed he had to cut short the Earth Civil War arc that would have been carried across the first half of season five. Do you think it's a coicidence that the second half dove tails nicely with the ending of season 4? It's not at all.
The story I heard was much more... complicated. Didn't she want a payrise, they didn't give it to her, then she said "I won't resign unless I get mo' money." And they called her bluff? Or was it a bluff, considering she didn't come back?That and what he was doing for to build up the arc he had was seriously undermined by Claudia Christian's quitting. Ivanova was supposed to have played a pretty hefty part in that arc and she left. With out he had to do some serious improvising and filling out.
That's fair.I think looking at it objectively, it only was a let down compared to the rest of B5.
Actually, his dialogue often bounced between decent and downright awful even when the series was at its peak. I found the "dramatic soliloquys" particularly annoying. There's a point when you can tell that the writer is trying way too damned hard to say something profound, and it can get irritating.Master of Ossus wrote:Hmmm... on the one hand, I have every respect for JMS as the genius that put together B5. On the other hand, some of his work after the first four seasons really stunk up the TV.
JMS said he always had a Sheridan-like character in mind when he was writing the show, so there very well may have been an Anna and a Black star, just it wouldnt be as important. Besides, Catherine was to get in trouble with the Shadows while exploring on the Rim. So she may not have been on the Icarus, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have gotten Sinclair to go to Z'Ha'Dum. Who becomes the President of the ISA when Sheridan HAS to go off and hang out with the First Ones? Delenn. I see no problem thereStofsk wrote:I know. No offence or anything, but characterisation is KING of storytelling, with Plot being Duke. Setting is one of the Counts or Barons.Macross wrote:Stofsk, I never said that he didnt plan for season 5, all I said that he had to expand half a seasons worth of stories into a full season. *snip* Granted, its not that simple, but all of the major story elements are still there, only the names have changed. Sinclair still becomes Valen.
ANyway my stupid little analogy puts characters up front, where they belong. Think how the show would have gone down had Sinclair stayed. I mean, really think about it: NO Anna. NO Black Star. Who's Ranger One? Or will Sinclair still be both head of the Rangers and commander of Babylon 5? Who becomes President of the ISA when Sinclair HAS to leave to become Valen?
Yes.What about that Japanese chick? She's suddenly the 2nd in command of B5. Does she turn traitor?
IIRC, they were going to have that storyline anyway. Ivanova would still have more screen time than Corwin.What about Talia staying as a result, and becomes the 'telepath' weapon against the Shadows? Do she and Ivanova (who replaces Corwyn's role initially, then get's "promoted" to 2nd in command) still become an item, or because of Takashima's presence she and Talia never meet, because there was NO REASON to in "Midnight on the Firing Line"?
Another reason why Sinclair had to go is because JMS felt that there wasn't enough growth potential for Sinclair.Plots don't dictate what character goes where; Characters dictate what happens in plot.
No, TV politics isn't the reason. You're attributing failed storywriting for a completely unrelated matter. Network politics dictate if and when a show get's continued, nothing more. We have JMS's own admission that the Networks left them alone - they sent a memo saying "knock yourselves out, we don't give a shit" or something to that effect, in season 1. In season 2 the only thing they interfered with was casting - they wanted Top Gun character (what's his face, the pilot who dies at the end of the season), and either they wanted a replacement for Sinclair or that was the extent of their interference (I keep hearing that Michael O'Hare wanted to leave, and did so under amicable conditions - but then I also hear how he wasn't liked by the networks, but that could just be an urban legend made up by fans who hated Sinclair).
Not when B5 was supposed to have 5 seasons. The whole idea behind B5 is that its a Five year arc. A sixth season would a) violate the whole grand scheme of things b) be unnecessary as all the storylines were completed.In any case, AS WRITER JMS is responsible for season 5's dismal end. So he had a choice between expanding the story (more like "stretching") or introducing new plot points? - how about neither, as a LOT of plot threads were left untied. And besides, what exactly is wrong with introducing new storylines? We could have had a season 6 instead of crappy Crusade.
Which was the purpose, IMO, to show that even the "good" teeps are not as good as they are made out to beRe: Telepaths. Why couldn't it have turned into a fullblown crisis, or even the War, as opposed to the Cult being terminated by the fuzz which is what ended up happening? I had zero sympathy for that longhaired hippy bitch. "We won't help you because we telepaths were made to be weapons to fight and die against the Shadows." Oh excuse me, Mr Self-righteous - where the fuck were you when the Shadows were on the rampage? I didn't see you anywhere - I did see a whole bunch of alien tepes putting it all on the line, however.
1) There wasn't time. JMS didn't even include the Long Night of Londo Mollari in S4, and without it, it would make no sense why Londo and G'Kar would become so buddy-buddy as they have become by the end of S4. Did you notice Sheridan's absolutely ridiculous escape? JMS didn't hve enough screen time to do anything better. 2) S4 was about concluding all the storylines, not introducing new ones. Besides, JMS was sure the show would be over. You have the benefit of hindsight.Idea to fix? What's wrong with introducing telepaths in season 4, where they would have been used in the shadow war and civil war, and carrying them over to season 5? You can leave it open-ended in season 4, by only making them background characters (in case the show doesn't get renewed, and if it does you're plot seed has developed into a little plant that now needs water).
No he didn't. He got fucked up by Bester. It wasn't his fault. Or did you miss his little drinking problem that surfaced because he felt so fucked up by Bester. That was an important part of why Bester=bad, and besides, Garibaldi always had a drinking problem, so it would be silly not to explore it. And no, good things don't happen to "people who fuck people over" Look at Londo. Garibaldi had good things happen to him becuase he was fucked over all his life.Re: Garibaldi. I cannot even begin to describe how fucking pissed off JMS made me feel by desecrating this character. He winds up truly pathetic that a dog would have more dignity than him. Then he becomes CEO of a multi-system corporation.
Been there, done that with Franklin.Idea to fix: Why couldn't he just get addicted to his work? Replace one addiction for another?
No argument there. I agree the telepath storyline could have been handled better.It would make more sense, and instead of filling season 5 with big battles you instead have a different kind of war come up - a war that was always alluded to since the beginning, a war of information. The telepaths come to B5 and seek asylum. Instead of being led by some Cult motherfucker, they're genuine refugees of the Shadow war. These guys fought for the Army of Light, then were forgotten about. Now Sheriden et al have a debt to repay, and don't shirk on it. Sheriden acted like an utter bastard for completely ignoring the tepes. Then again if I was in his shoes I would have handed Byron over immediately.
Because he wanted to start the Telepath War, and he thought that there wasn't enough material to fill up an entire season? Beside, when has B5 had only one storyline?Re: Fall of Centauri. Damn straight this put the show on course. You know something? Why couldn't he DO THIS FOR THE ENTIRE SEASON? The first half has Drazi shipyards getting rebuilt and rearmament happening to their fleets. You have Narn trying to rebuild itself, and the ISA hearing reports that funds for rebuilding are mysteriously being redirected. Throw-away line in one of the morning briefings, then get's buried under a new crisis. Maybe a prominent Centauri gets assassinated.
Yes, but what could have he done? He couldn't have stopped the war without letting the Alliance fall apart. He had to choose: the Centauri or the Alliance. He chose the Alliance.the shipping getting hit was a good idea, and from the beginning. Why not expand on THAT plot point? Add detail that maybe those ships which were hit were destined for Drazi secret shipyards to build up a strike fleet? Maybe instead of having remote-controlled warships you actually have a legitimate Centauri concern and full knowledge of the strikes muddying the waters up a bit. The Centauri get utterly shafted in season 5. And Sheriden, in his pissy little White Star, looks like a helpless shithead for letting it happen. Remember how serious he fucking was in preventing the fall of Centauri Prime? He deliberately put himself into harms way, with the intent of sacrificing himself on Z'Ha'Dum in order to prevent it from happening.
Not all of these ideas were good. But then again, you only had 15 minutes.Fucking hell, these are ideas I came up with in the last 15 minutes. He had weeks and months to write season 5! Don't give me this "The Networks screwed him over" line - I'm not buying it. He had his name on the credits and as such gets the blame. All of it. [EDIT] Ok, maybe not ALL of it, but most of it.
[EDIT] Gods, what a rant.
Really? So... O'hare left, and JMS shut the book on his character. Am I right?fgalkin wrote:Another reason why Sinclair had to go is because JMS felt that there wasn't enough growth potential for Sinclair.
a) no, it wouldn't. The 5-year arc is a marketing ploy, it wasn't implicit within the story anyway - however, I'll concede it given the fact I hate how shows keep on plugging on year after year getting shitter and shitter.Not when B5 was supposed to have 5 seasons. The whole idea behind B5 is that its a Five year arc. A sixth season would a) violate the whole grand scheme of things b) be unnecessary as all the storylines were completed.In any case, AS WRITER JMS is responsible for season 5's dismal end. So he had a choice between expanding the story (more like "stretching") or introducing new plot points? - how about neither, as a LOT of plot threads were left untied. And besides, what exactly is wrong with introducing new storylines? We could have had a season 6 instead of crappy Crusade.
Fair enough. But why choose a creepy Cult leader then? Why not just use tepes abusing their powers, actually make it seem the Psi-Corps has a good purpose?Which was the purpose, IMO, to show that even the "good" teeps are not as good as they are made out to be
1) I can't argue with that, as it's been ages since I saw season 4. And yes, I did notice Sheriden's rediculous escape.1) There wasn't time. JMS didn't even include the Long Night of Londo Mollari in S4, and without it, it would make no sense why Londo and G'Kar would become so buddy-buddy as they have become by the end of S4. Did you notice Sheridan's absolutely ridiculous escape? JMS didn't hve enough screen time to do anything better. 2) S4 was about concluding all the storylines, not introducing new ones. Besides, JMS was sure the show would be over. You have the benefit of hindsight.
Of course I didn't miss it. How does that change the fact it was pathetic? All the way back in season 1 he had his 'alcohol' come back special, and it was STILL pathetic. It could be just the fact Jerry Doyle playing drunk looked embarassing. In any case it was established that Garibaldi was striving to stay away from the booze. To have him fall back onto it in such a pitiful way - or more to the point, in such an EXCESSIVE way - I mean, I agree with you that him falling back to the pisspot made sense given what Bester did to him, but did we REALLY have to have as many scenes as we did? This doesn't excuse lazy writing - why show a complete breakdown over so many episodes? Why couldn't it be bit-by-bit?No he didn't. He got fucked up by Bester. It wasn't his fault. Or did you miss his little drinking problem that surfaced because he felt so fucked up by Bester. That was an important part of why Bester=bad, and besides, Garibaldi always had a drinking problem, so it would be silly not to explore it. And no, good things don't happen to "people who fuck people over" Look at Londo. Garibaldi had good things happen to him becuase he was fucked over all his life.
True, I didn't think it through entirely. But Franklin's work was boring, while Garibaldi at that stage was the ISA's spymaster!Been there, done that with Franklin.
Wait a minute, he didn't start the TW, and if he thought THAT wasn't enough material to fill up an entire season when paired with the Centauri Fall why did he waste a lot of it on crappy Byron episodes (which could have been replaced with the 'first blow of the Telepath War') and crappy episodes about the characters being visited by the dead, or the Day in the life of Two Shmoes (with an alien menace of the week applied as well, NO explanation about who they were or what they wanted, they just came out of JMS's arse for no good reason)?Because he wanted to start the Telepath War, and he thought that there wasn't enough material to fill up an entire season? Beside, when has B5 had only one storyline?
Yeah true, I don't envy Sheriden's position. I just found that whole scenario rather poor - the Narn somehow rebuilt their fleet after only 1-2 years of liberation; I can't remember the episode clearly, but I remember them having too many ships. That was my main gripe, especially how in "Walkabout" the same character (can't remember his name but he was played by Robin Sachs) stated how few ships survived. Bah! It's late and I can't remember season 5 all that well now.Yes, but what could have he done? He couldn't have stopped the war without letting the Alliance fall apart. He had to choose: the Centauri or the Alliance. He chose the Alliance.
Bah! Everyone's a critic...Not all of these ideas were good. But then again, you only had 15 minutes.
Not really. JMS realized his mistake by mid-season 1, and wanted Sinclair out. Then O'hare announced that wanted out. JMS saw that it was his big chance to get rid of Sinclair and he took it.Stofsk wrote:Really? So... O'hare left, and JMS shut the book on his character. Am I right?fgalkin wrote:Another reason why Sinclair had to go is because JMS felt that there wasn't enough growth potential for Sinclair.
Yes, but to be done properly, the Telepath war would not take half a season. It would take several seasons at least, and to have it start in S5 would mean that any work dealing with the Teep war would have immediately follow B5 itself. I guess JMS didn't want that. Besides, he always said that some things are better left untold. That's why he never told what happened to Sheridan's son (we know he got infested by the keeper, and that Sheridan and Delenn are captured because of it, but that's it)a) no, it wouldn't. The 5-year arc is a marketing ploy, it wasn't implicit within the story anyway - however, I'll concede it given the fact I hate how shows keep on plugging on year after year getting shitter and shitter.
b) No, the storylines weren't all completed. We have no idea about the Telepath War. NONE. We know Lyta died in it (IIRC), that Bester survived, and the ROgues won and the Psi-Corps lost - and was dismantled. That's IT. Yet the Telepath War was constantly looming on the horizon from as far back as season 1 - where it was clear the tensions were reaching boiling point between tepes and mundanes.
Hey, I'm no fan of Byron either. But, Bester did "help" with the Teep problem.Fair enough. But why choose a creepy Cult leader then? Why not just use tepes abusing their powers, actually make it seem the Psi-Corps has a good purpose?
Well, he did show that the Shadow minions are called the Drakh, they use keepers, and they come to Centauri prime. We know what happens from War Without End. JMS explained who the shadow minions were as best he could given the circumstances.1) I can't argue with that, as it's been ages since I saw season 4. And yes, I did notice Sheriden's rediculous escape.
2) S4 wasn't about concluding ALL the storylines, just the most pertinent ones. The Drahk are barely touched upon, and the Telepath War looms again in a conversation between Lyta and Franklin on Mars ("Face of the Enemy"). The Shadow War and Civil War get wrapped up though, and that's what would have counted.
Yes, I'll admit that hearing Sheridan say "This job is important. we're all counting on you, Michael" followed by a shot of Garibaldi lying drunk on the floor for the umpteenth time did get annoyingOf course I didn't miss it. How does that change the fact it was pathetic? All the way back in season 1 he had his 'alcohol' come back special, and it was STILL pathetic. It could be just the fact Jerry Doyle playing drunk looked embarassing. In any case it was established that Garibaldi was striving to stay away from the booze. To have him fall back onto it in such a pitiful way - or more to the point, in such an EXCESSIVE way - I mean, I agree with you that him falling back to the pisspot made sense given what Bester did to him, but did we REALLY have to have as many scenes as we did? This doesn't excuse lazy writing - why show a complete breakdown over so many episodes? Why couldn't it be bit-by-bit?
Well, he did marry Lise, who inherited Edgars Industries. And she said she wanted his help in running the company. She probably made him co-owner or something.And you still didn't address the "becomes CEO overnight thing." That just seemed excessive to me.
Well, Franklin didn't think it was boringTrue, I didn't think it through entirely. But Franklin's work was boring, while Garibaldi at that stage was the ISA's spymaster!
See above about the Teep war. Btw, I really loved Day of the Dead. It showed Lochley's character, it forshadowed Lennier's fate (and we got to see Mr. Morden again), Londo got one night of happiness before the Fall, Garibaldi showed that he was devoted to Lise, and we got to see Penn and Teller in B5! What more do you want? Its one of the best episodes of the season, IMO.Wait a minute, he didn't start the TW, and if he thought THAT wasn't enough material to fill up an entire season when paired with the Centauri Fall why did he waste a lot of it on crappy Byron episodes (which could have been replaced with the 'first blow of the Telepath War') and crappy episodes about the characters being visited by the dead, or the Day in the life of Two Shmoes (with an alien menace of the week applied as well, NO explanation about who they were or what they wanted, they just came out of JMS's arse for no good reason)?
Well, they did get help from the Alliance. Besides, this was their big chance for payback. I wouldn't be surprised if they sent most of their fleet to bomb Centauri Prime.Yeah true, I don't envy Sheriden's position. I just found that whole scenario rather poor - the Narn somehow rebuilt their fleet after only 1-2 years of liberation; I can't remember the episode clearly, but I remember them having too many ships. That was my main gripe, especially how in "Walkabout" the same character (can't remember his name but he was played by Robin Sachs) stated how few ships survived. Bah! It's late and I can't remember season 5 all that well now.
I don't seem to recall anything of the sort, but it may be my memoryI remember Sheriden being impotent at the scene. In retrospect... I think it was good now. Throughout most of the show he won through cunning and trickery, but this time was a defeat. IIRC didn't he later think the Centauri Incident was his worst mistake? I seem to remember that from somewhere.
Hey, the man wrote Legend of the Rangers. He's obviously not infallible.Bah! Everyone's a critic...
You are right in that I have the benefit of hindsight, and thus I have the luxury of coming up with alternatives. My rant embarasses me. My point is that he is the one with ultimate responsibility for the show's end. He achieved it, and in the words of Morden it was a commendable achievement, but he still made mistakes.
Really? That's genuinely surprising. May I ask for a source on that? I always thought that O'Hare left, and JMS had to adapt because of it, now it seems it's the reverse with O'Hare leaving somewhat fortuitously.fgalkin wrote:Not really. JMS realized his mistake by mid-season 1, and wanted Sinclair out. Then O'hare announced that wanted out. JMS saw that it was his big chance to get rid of Sinclair and he took it.
Don't forget "The Ragged Edge" where Garibaldi landed on Drazi and pretty much the first thing he did was get drunk with his mate.Yes, I'll admit that hearing Sheridan say "This job is important. we're all counting on you, Michael" followed by a shot of Garibaldi lying drunk on the floor for the umpteenth time did get annoying.
"Yeah, I'm here to pick up a witness who might be able to tell me who's behind the attacks on ISA shipping... but there's no rush of course, and there's ALWAYS time for a beer. Or, in this case, several bottles of Scotch."I don't seem to recall anything of the sort, but it may be my memory
Good point, well made. And a lot less verbose than my rant. You truly are First among the Rangers, Ranger One.Hey, the man wrote Legend of the Rangers. He's obviously not infallible.
About "the news report": you're probably thinking about Deconstruction of Falling stars. However, they said that Sheridan said that letting the teeps on the station was his worst mistake,JMS wrote: Please do not stick this on O'Hare. Whatever decisions get made, it
is up to the producers -- me and Doug -- to implement those decisions, so
ultimate responsibility rests with me. If you're going to be angry at
anyone, be angry at me. Your anger is misplaced.
Again, this was *mutual*. We looked at the story, the way a
novelist looks at a novel he's one-fifth through writing, and you learn
things writing the novel that you can learn NO other way, however much
you plan and outline. And at some point, you say, "If we leave things
JUST as they are, no changes, we can do X and Y, which are both very
cool. But if we take a chance, and make some shifts in direction, we can
do X, and Y...*AND* Z...and Z is *VERY* interesting indeed. It opens up
whole new areas for us to explore. So we talked about it with Michael,
who had some thoughts of his own...and now here we are.
Granted, it's taking a chance. But we all swore a blood oath to
make the show consistently better. Any time a possible decision comes
up -- like, Should we do "Believers," knowing that it'll get us in
ENDLESS trouble -- we ask, "Will this benefit the show?" If the answer
is yes, we do it, regardless.
Once again, this is *mutual*. So blame me. And be assured, this
isn't now going to be a band-aid covering...it will let us get deeper and
faster into the meat of the storyline, and intensify the characterizations
and relationships. Sinclair's purpose in the large part of the first
section of the story was really to get everyone together...to start the
pieces moving. And now we've got all the players in position. The whole
24 hours/Line thread was *always* going to be resolved at the top of year
two, because you can't sustain that for more than 1.5 seasons at MOST.
The audience, rightly, won't stand for it. At that point, that mystery
dispensed with (which would lead to other questions), Sinclair kinda
faded a bit from the story, because now we have to bring the other
players into the foreground. So if he's going to fade *anyway*, why have
him meandering around? Why not "absent" him for a time...and up the
stakes for everyone else, and help focus on other aspects?
The story will go where it was always going to go. This much is
certain.
Just like every netwrok in existence picked up Angel. Oh, wait, that didn't happen because no matter how large a following the show has, a SF show will never attract as many people as a "mainstream" showMaster of Ossus wrote:I always hear why Season 5 wasn't his fault, but let's be honest for a moment, here: if Season 4 had ended without ending the Shadow War, what would the chances be that B5 would be cancelled then and there, and not picked up by anybody else? EVERY network in existence would pick up a show like that, which had such a significant following, ASAP. Granted, they may not have offered him the budget he would have wanted, but the fact remains that the show would've gone on.
His work on Jeremiah was good, and so are his comics (or so I hear).Regardless of how much responsibility he had for Season 5, though, let's be honest with the things he's done AFTER the B5 finale. His TV movies, with the exception of ItB, have been utterly forgettable. Crusade failed to deliver on its promise to get better because it was cancelled. But let's, again, be honest with ourselves: the most recent of JMS's projects have also been the shittiest. Legend of the Rangers stunk. It was simply terrible. A lot of writers get only one truly good project, and B5 may have been JMS's. I hope I'm wrong, since I'd like to see him doing something great, again, but B5 may have been it for him.
Damn right. Even DS9 couldn't get syndication until recently despite being a huge show in its heyday.fgalkin wrote: Just like every netwrok in existence picked up Angel. Oh, wait, that didn't happen because no matter how large a following the show has, a SF show will never attract as many people as a "mainstream" show
Yes, it was. But unlike in published works, a television writer has to deal with a lot of other things besides simply writing. And in this case a lot of things beyond his control combined at the worst possible time to throw a monkey wrench in the works.Stofsk wrote:I know this. It was originally going to end with the "Let's torture Sheriden!" episode. I understand why he felt he had to do this, but it's still his responsibility - he signed his name off on the episodes, he was the credited writer - that means the story was done by him.
Yes, PTEN, the cable syndication company that orginally had dibs on B5, went under. It was either conclude the major arc or leave a cliffhanger forever at that point. There wasn't going to be a Season 5 until the after the last minute deal with TNT which kept it on the air. But the deal wasn't reached until Season Four was almost entirely shot, and well past the time it was possible to change it.Stofsk wrote:Now, he can be excused of creative burnout and forgiven for the stress of getting season 5 confirmed, considering his desire to pen every one of the episodes. My only (real) point of contention was the claim it was ALL the network's fault, for not confirming season 5 earlier. And as I recall, they never did - JMS had to move on to TNT or something for season 5 IIRC. That was all at the last minute, and would all serve to excuse what happened.
He was in charge but even for the show runner there's a lot out of their control.Stofsk wrote:He wrote the episodes, and he was executive producer, so he must have been in charge at the time anyway - so blaming the Networks solely isn't fair at all. They had an effect, to be sure, but like I said above: the buck stops with JMS.
You've got the essence of it. She wanted more money and thought she could get it by demanding it or she'd leave. Because they couldn't allow it with out giving across the board raises, she was told she could leave. She did not believing it was for real. And she started some lies about her being fired. When it became clear they weren't going to beg her to come back, she did the begging. At that point it simply didn't work, and it sounds like it was mostly personal animosities that killed it.Stofsk wrote:The story I heard was much more... complicated. Didn't she want a payrise, they didn't give it to her, then she said "I won't resign unless I get mo' money." And they called her bluff? Or was it a bluff, considering she didn't come back?
Actually, they only 'lost' Claudia Christian. Jason Carter's character was supposed to have been killed off as happened on screen. That actually would have played into Ivanonva's later arc. However she left after that had been wrapped and aired I believe. I think JMS has said that had he know she was leaving, he would have done that differently.Stofsk wrote:In any case, that sucks harder than the network thing. Having a season 5 confirmed after all the bullshit, and THEN losing two of the core characters is a heck of a spanner to be thrown into the works.
